How much do Zalanthan folks know about math?

[touringCompl3t3]

I'll agree with the first point, but basic algebra doesn't comprehend nulls and negatives; 'tis more of a geometric subsitution system. Take a look at Diogenes. As far as calculus, I must strenuously disagree, unless the Dragon was a lot more destructive even than believed thus far. The leap to calculus boggles the mind.

I don't want to argue with you about zero or negatives, given that you appear to have strong feelings on the subject and seem to have researched the matter more thoroughly than I.

Historically, calculus was invented to solve problems in astronomy.  Given an absence of necessity for Zalanthans to study astronomy or conduct complex (sea) navigations, I don't see why they would currently maintain calculus especially without the ability to write that sort of stuff down.

I think that some of the posters here who favor conservative estimates tend to underestimate the amount of calculation necessary to successfully construct an industrial-grade structure like a city-wall, or a road that withstands erosion or a gladiatorial stadium.  Even the maintenance on those sorts of structures tends to get pretty engineering-intensive.

Changing the subject, I've often been surprised at the amount of arithmetic blue collar people use in the course of their jobs, even when they haven't finished high school. 

Most children and adults will need to understand multiplication and division in order to conduct commerce (i.e. shop for groceries) as well as keep score at sporting events.

[KIA]

House Tenneshi would probably have a good deal of knowledge about any mathematics needed for architecture, as they've spent a good King's Age rebuilding Tuluk. Some of the architecture in Tuluk is quite impressive, especially the estates. But the math would perhaps be implicitly linked to physical and material substances. Theoretical math would hardly be seen as useful or tenable.

[touringCompl3t3]

House Tenneshi would probably have a good deal of knowledge about any mathematics needed for architecture, as they've spent a good King's Age rebuilding Tuluk. Some of the architecture in Tuluk is quite impressive, especially the estates. But the math would perhaps be implicitly linked to physical and material substances. Theoretical math would hardly be seen as useful or tenable.

Yeah, I definitely feel you.

I remember trying to play my House Tenneshi PC as something of an engineer.  People really didn't get the character, but that's probably because he wasn't a hunter, a frou-frou noble or a dickens-whelp.


=-)

[Bilanthri]

This thread has made me think a lot about the reasons that primitive people learned math. Often it was a by-product of more spiritual studies.

I offer two examples:

1) The Greek philosopher, Pythagoras, and his close contemporaries (ie Groupies), known as Pythagoreans, were on a quest for knowledge. They founded a religion based around the mathematical truths they discovered. The important thing to note is that it was their desire for spiritual growth that led them to the discovery of some of the foundations of modern mathematics.

2) The highly intelligent, stone-age Mayans developed a number system based on the length of the solar year, developing two distinct, interwoven calendars used to make surprisingly valid predictions about the ebb and flow of humanity as a whole. It was their need to understand the heavens, and the ties of people to the world, that spawned their powerful mathematical skills.


So if there is some strong spiritual reason for people to develop these kinds of sciences, they are likely to succeed. A great example is House Tenneshi, who would be encouraged to study architecture as a dedication to their own spiritual validity.
If there are astronomers looking to the sky, they are quite likely, if not destined, to discover a great deal about geometry and, perhaps, trigonometry.

But then, sciences are found and lost. Who knows what knowledge is lost to the sands.

[KIA]

However, knowledge of writing is illegal, (except perhaps in cavilish by the bankers and merchant family seniors). No commoner would be allowed to use mathematical notation farther than a merchant's rod or an abakus like device (should one exist). Without notation, things might get very difficult. Zalanthas is much more akin to ancient Egypt, where heiroglyphics and demotic script were still in the hands of the priests and scribes.

[Bilanthri]

However, knowledge of writing is illegal, (except perhaps in cavilish by the bankers and merchant family seniors). No commoner would be allowed to use mathematical notation farther than a merchant's rod or an abakus like device (should one exist). Without notation, things might get very difficult. Zalanthas is much more akin to ancient Egypt, where heiroglyphics and demotic script were still in the hands of the priests and scribes.

This is all very true. I would suspect that only the ruling castes would have any access to math aside from tally tablets and the like. But you gotta remember, these Egyptian priests and scribes had enough mathematical knowledge under their sashes to realize they needed to make an on-the-fly adjustment to an architecture project of massive proportions, and it still stands today.

[Jingo]

Keep in mind that there is a difference between what me might call "pure" math and "applied" math.

The egyptians for example had some interesting systems of mathematics for methods of astronomy, monument building and irrigation. But they didn't have a universal system of mathematics. Basically this was applied math.

A few thousand years later, we got the Greeks. They borrowed what the egyptians (and others) knew and turned it into an abstract system of logic that doesn't necessarily apply to irrigation of pyramid building. This is pure math.

My guess is that Zalanthas is on the same level of the egyptians where as they don't have a universal system of math. But they do have a math that applies to engineering.

[Krath]

Hehehe, The answer to this is simple ASSUMING this is a POST_Apocalypse game. They would know as much as us, assuming Post-Apocalypse was referring to an Apocalypse on earth.

[Bilanthri]

Hehehe, The answer to this is simple ASSUMING this is a POST_Apocalypse game. They would know as much as us, assuming Post-Apocalypse was referring to an Apocalypse on earth.

But, given socially cataclysmic events, people are forced to reassess what is important to their survival...Maslow's Hierarchy.
So, given enough of a backwards push, all the smart people are gonna be too busy making arrowheads to keep track of higher science.

[FantasyWriter]

Hehehe, The answer to this is simple ASSUMING this is a POST_Apocalypse game. They would know as much as us, assuming Post-Apocalypse was referring to an Apocalypse on earth.

But, given socially cataclysmic events, people are forced to reassess what is important to their survival...Maslow's Hierarchy.
So, given enough of a backwards push, all the smart people are gonna be too busy making arrowheads to keep track of higher science.

Ten points each to Krath and Bilanthri.

[AJM]

Hehehe, The answer to this is simple ASSUMING this is a POST_Apocalypse game. They would know as much as us, assuming Post-Apocalypse was referring to an Apocalypse on earth.

If this was earth, then where did the giants, and elves come from? I may be off here but isn't this world similar to that of the Dune series? I didn't read it, and my G.F. doesn't remember, but was there any sign of math-ability in the books?

[Bilanthri]

There are touches of Dune in the setting...political intrigue, Great Houses, isolationist desert tribes, lotta sand. But that's about where the similarities end. Despite the gritty, mortal feel of Zalanthas, it is still (high) fantasy with monsters, sorcerers, and the like. I'd recommend reading some of the DarkSun novels...not just as references, but because a lot of them are damned good.

Code Select Expand


>forage artifact

You find a dusty wierding module and pick it up.

[Taven]

The question seems to be where the line between intuitive math (such as what Lizzie's post covered) and "actual" math is. Due to the set up of Zalanthas, and strict limitations on knowledge and writing, the people who could have such knowledge is very limited to a handful, all of which would be connected to some major House. Nearly every House would have SOME form of math involved, but how "actual" it is defidently varies.

Another consideration is mathmatical notation. Nenyuk's notation is probably VERY different from, say, Tenneshi or Sath's. I'd imagine that even mathmatical notation would be a closely guarded secret; if you had to write math out in words it would be a gigantic handicap, and a shared notation doesn't seem like something the nobles or House Merchants would tolerate. Those in power want to guard and keep it.

Why is that important? Well, it means that whatever current math there is, I doubt there's much discussion of it outside of the select group in one's House that knows it, leading to specializations. For example, unless Nenyuk slaves are actually building the apartments they have, Nenyuk probably doesn't need Geometery the way, say, House Tenneshi does. Specializations mean that the math known overall is limited, and it's likely that if a House doesn't have a use for it, they won't both with it.

I don't think there are negitives on Zalanthas. Zero, yes, but no negitive numbers. None of the Merchant Houses have anything set up in such a way where they can loose coin. If you don't buy it, then you're not getting it. There are no negitive balances, or "money owed" unless, maybe, an individual of that House is doing that, and even then it would be the individual who might loose money, or be owed something, not the House. Odds are that individual isn't going to need negitive numbers to keep track of that.

However, short of magick, there has to be some more advanced mathmatics. How exactly did they make Tektolnes' tower, which is sky-scraper in height? Either it's some advanced math, or some advanced magicks-- Or even a combination of the two. The thing is, is that incredible structures like that haven't been built for eons, so whatever knowledge was used to build it is either forgotten or such a closely guarded secret you'd better not think about getting anywhere near it unless you're a black robe, or a slave who never sees the light of day.

Potentally, the Houses who have the most advanced knowledge of mathmatics would not be those who use it directly, but rather seek to understand everything. Negean, Sath, and possibly (to a MUCH lesser extent) Voryek. As collectors and keepers of history, those fit the bill and have access to older and more advanced texts. The math that may not have an immediate pratical use might be studied by them, along with the associated philosophic concepts. However, I think many of the other Houses, if aware of such knowledge, would probably dismiss it as eccentric and not useful, and short of conceptually, I doubt even those history-collecting Houses would have use for it.

[My 2 sids]

I'd say math and accounting practices could be fairly far advanced, even with an illiterate society.  Because it's not the skill per say that is dangerous -- its accumulated knowledge.

Amos brick layer and Lord Muck-muck may both be using the same math skills to construct and "decorate" their new home.  But, Amos' scale of "price of sand stone * 20' space"  and "10% of spending 200 sids at the shop"  is quite different than Lord Muck-muck's 200' castle and how to acquire the best and rarest decorations and servants. 

Also, Amos candle maker's scale of the world (in sales) v. Mr. Kadian's is also vastly different.   Amos might take notice that after a year the color plum sells slightly better than red (and he has a few odd-ball scrolls which may or may not point to this).  Mr. Kadian, however, has sales records going back hundreds of years all extremely detailed and covering the majority of transactions on all customer bases -- that kind of accumulation of records can be dangerous.


It's not that individuals are dumb, or even encouraged to be,   it's that individuals can't make ripples.  They can't upset the order.   Any knowledge that would  make someone stand out -- that's where the nobles and rulers may take notice.

[jstorrie]

I think it's safe to assume that Zalanthans know about the number 0 just because we already use it in-game a lot, and because it would be difficult for us all to break out of using it. We may as well just assume that the Empire of Man was advanced enough to know about 0, and because it's a pretty resilient concept no one has forgotten about it.

We can see where math isn't. Neither maps nor siege weapons are very common, so geometry and especially trigonometry are probably rare among un-Housed commoners. Nenyuk doesn't apply interest to many things, so the common man probably doesn't understand percentages and likely isn't very good at multiplication or division. There's definitely no evidence of calculus in-game.

There are also some interesting situations where math might crop up. Allanaki Council mages might have a good grasp of negative integers, for example, because some amount of positive/negative dualism is implied by the docs on the magick system. Merchant houses and military planners both might have some ideas about probabilities, though I doubt they're as advanced as Bayesian stuff.

[BlackMagic0]

Most my PCs can count to ten.  1... 2... 3... 10! 

And they are happy with that. Who needs to count all their newb boots, just knowing you got a shit-load is good enough.

To add to the topic, to be at least less crazy in his lack of sleep:
I believe that most commoners have absolutely no real knowledge of math, other then what they need to know for selling/buying.
Other commoners may know a bit more basic math, though I doubt they would know anything more (definitely not geometry) for most jobs done by them have no real need for it, and why would you keep something you no need for. You are already living on the edge of the blade, so to speak.
I could see nobles, Templars, merchants, and anyone work for these stations to have reasons to know quite a bit more about math/geometry. Maybe just because the snobs can know more, pfft.

In simple terms, I just don't see anyone on Zalanthas doing anything over simple math / geometry.

[Gunnerblaster]

Let's say:
Merchant buddy says to bring down forty branches so that they can make three arrows from each.
Me says that, from each branch comes three arrows, so that would be 120 arrows.

Having knowledge of lumberjacking, said character also knows that logs can be split into three planks. Then from those planks can be made three objects capable of being crafted into five arrows each. That would mean fifteen arrows from each plank. Would the character have the knowledge to then deduce that each log would be a yield's worth of forty-five arrows?

Then going a step further, would he be able to assume that three logs, giving off more arrows, would be more valuable then forty branches?

Or should I just assume that my character should go with the logic of "My two quarters are worth more than your dollar because I have one more of it than you do!"

[Doppelganger]

Having knowledge of lumberjacking, said character also knows that logs can be split into three planks. Then from those planks can be made three objects capable of being crafted into five arrows each. That would mean fifteen arrows from each plank. Would the character have the knowledge to then deduce that each log would be a yield's worth of forty-five arrows?

If he deals in arrows, yet does not know how to count, he would know that each log produces about four dozens or two quivers or three planks worth of arrows.

Then going a step further, would he be able to assume that three logs, giving off more arrows, would be more valuable then forty branches?

Yes, if arrows is a local currency.

Or should I just assume that my character should go with the logic of "My two quarters are worth more than your dollar because I have one more of it than you do!"

No, unless your character has negative wisdom. Even monkey would chose one banana over two kicks in the butt any day.

Opinion above is my own, not that of Armageddon staff.

[Angela Christine]

Let's say:
Merchant buddy says to bring down forty branches so that they can make three arrows from each.
Me says that, from each branch comes three arrows, so that would be 120 arrows.

Having knowledge of lumberjacking, said character also knows that logs can be split into three planks. Then from those planks can be made three objects capable of being crafted into five arrows each. That would mean fifteen arrows from each plank. Would the character have the knowledge to then deduce that each log would be a yield's worth of forty-five arrows?

Then going a step further, would he be able to assume that three logs, giving off more arrows, would be more valuable then forty branches?

Or should I just assume that my character should go with the logic of "My two quarters are worth more than your dollar because I have one more of it than you do!"

As a rule of thumb, I figure that math I can do in my head or with my fingers is within reach of most PCs that have bothered to spend time learning figuring.  Illiterate people often have very good memories, so if I can remember it, they can probably remember it too.  This may not apply if you are a math prodigy.

Just remembering the formula is not enough, either.  I can remember  a²+b²=c², and I can usually even do squaring in my head to get c², but there is very little chance that I will be able to figure the square route of c² in my head, so I reckon simple, ancient geometry is going to be beyond the vast majority of my PCs.  I can also remember the quadratic formula, but there is no way in hell I could solve it without writing things down, so I feel confident that it will be well beyond the capability of all but the most educated and specialized NPCs.

Most my PCs can count to ten.  1... 2... 3... 10! 

Are your PCs trolls half-giants?  One, two, some, many, lots!

Counting, adding and subtracting should be within the metal capabilities of most people.

In simple terms, I just don't see anyone on Zalanthas doing anything over simple math / geometry.

Someone on Zalanthas knows enough engineering to build huge, multi-level wooden argosies that don't shake to pieces the first time they hit a rough patch in the road.  Admittedly, that person is probably not a PC.  But there are feats of construction that would be challenging even to a modern, university educated structural engineer and architect to pull off using only Zalanthan materials.  It is possible that Zalanthan engineers are savants who build by dead reckoning and implicit understanding of their materials rather than using planning and blueprints, but it seems unlikely. 

[Archbaron]

My biggest question is how they got this far without astronomy.

This is true, something to ponder on.