How much do Zalanthan folks know about math?

[musashi]

Of course, I can imagine that most Zalanthans knows precious little beyond basic adding and subtracting (to count their black little shineys  ) but from one Zalanthan scholar to another, what is the level of mathematics that they've developed? Algebra? Calc? Trig?

[Tisiphone]

Of course, I can imagine that most Zalanthans knows precious little beyond basic adding and subtracting (to count their black little shineys  ) but from one Zalanthan scholar to another, what is the level of mathematics that they've developed? Algebra? Calc? Trig?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, from what I've seen IG, they're probably roughly on par with the 5th century BC, meaning advanced geometry, conics (certain 2nd degree solutions to the locus problem), and maybe some rudiments of the work of Archimedes. However, they likely don't have a formalized algebra or the concept of 0, or of negatives, outside of ratiocinatal compounding and subtraction from greater.

My biggest question is how they got this far without astronomy.

[tortall]

If they haven't formed algebra, how are they building two+ story buildings?

[musashi]

Erm ... magick? 

That's a good assertion Tis, I hope that staff could perhaps chime in since the docs didn't seem too clear on math when I skimmed through them.

[Tisiphone]

If they haven't formed algebra, how are they building two+ story buildings?

Geometry. Go look at some Greek ruins.

[Bushranger]

I would say they are more advanced than this, though probably not on a widespread basis. Certainly some of the noble houses (Sath/Negean) and templarate employees could be devoting sages to mathematics, and with an understanding of magick it could have aided their studies. Formalized algebra, 0 and negatives are within reach for these people I imagine, just not something that is widely spread about.

[Tisiphone]

I would say they are more advanced than this, though probably not on a widespread basis. Certainly some of the noble houses (Sath/Negean) and templarate employees could be devoting sages to mathematics, and with an understanding of magick it could have aided their studies. Formalized algebra, 0 and negatives are within reach for these people I imagine, just not something that is widely spread about.

I would strenuously disagree, for two reasons:

1) You don't need algebra or negatives to do proper book-keeping, ESPECIALLY not in a supposed tally-system, regardless of how complicated it might be.

2) There are numerous philosophical difficulties with algebra, but most especially with nulls and negatives that I don't see Zalanthas as being in a position to accept.

[brytta.leofa]

Should addition and subtraction themselves by more laborious than we, with our swanky log notation, give them credit for?

[Bushranger]

Quite possibly, but then the way I imagined it the Sath and/or Negean sages were not studying mathematics for book keeping at all. It was precisely the philosophical reasons that I could imagine them delving deeply into mathematics and working out 0 and negatives. It might not be true, but just based on the esoteric knowledge that these two noble houses are rumoured to investigate is why I thought they could have tackled those philosphical lines of reasoning.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, I could see them working nulls and negatives, absolutely. It's not THAT hard to understand.

[Tisiphone]

Yeh, I could see them working nulls and negatives, absolutely. It's not THAT hard to understand.

Um....

Understanding nulls and negatives with respect to positive quantities and identities is quite different from understanding them per se (though I hesitate to use that phrase; it gives me metaphysical pause). I would, in fact, assert that you very likely think of them in the first way rather than the second, even though you probably don't think you think that way.

[Riev]

Yeh, I could see them working nulls and negatives, absolutely. It's not THAT hard to understand.

Um....

Understanding nulls and negatives with respect to positive quantities and identities is quite different from understanding them per se (though I hesitate to use that phrase; it gives me metaphysical pause). I would, in fact, assert that you very likely think of them in the first way rather than the second, even though you probably don't think you think that way.

For the love of goddamned whoever your lords are, people. This is not the philosophy thread, nor a corner to spread your slanderous lies. Math was given as a gift from the Dragon, and now he wants it back.

In all seriousness, I don't remember this being a discussion of Frege's theories of number, or a philosophy of science question. It was -basic- math.

[Clearsighted]

I reckon they know this much...

This is how to count on your hands from a book on medieval Turkish archery. Archers had to know it so they could be taught how to hold the bow.

http://www.caama.ca/kitab2/s8.html

Erm ... magick? 

That's a good assertion Tis, I hope that staff could perhaps chime in since the docs didn't seem too clear on math when I skimmed through them.

This isn't a slam against you, but having magick explain stuff in settings like this when there are better, mundane reasons, has always been a pet peeveof mine.

[Tisiphone]

In all seriousness, I don't remember this being a discussion of Frege's theories of number, or a philosophy of science question. It was -basic- math.

Again, no. The history and development of math is rooted in philosophy. Further, math id ipsum is a philosophic ratiocination.

[musashi]

Erm ... magick? 

That's a good assertion Tis, I hope that staff could perhaps chime in since the docs didn't seem too clear on math when I skimmed through them.

This isn't a slam against you, but having magick explain stuff in settings like this when there are better, mundane reasons, has always been a pet peeveof mine.

It wasn't a serious remark, hence the emoticon.

[Rahnevyn]

I am not a math-scholar myself but I think I can say definitively that Zalanthans do understand basic arithmetic and geometry, but don't grasp things as advanced as calculus (or sciences like physics and chemistry). The most skilled mathematicians and scientists are probably among the ranks of Sath and Negean, though I'd expect Houses Valika, Kassigarh and all the merchant Houses to have some advanced number-crunchers as well.

[musashi]

So what about algerba? Do they know about whole numbers (ie 0)? Integers? Rational Numbers?

[Angela Christine]

My biggest question is how they got this far without astronomy.

There used to be the ruins of an observatory with a big ol' telescope in Tuluk, I'm not sure if it is still there.  Maybe it existed just to watch for flying monsters, but it is more likely that there was something routinely visible in the sky.  If we assume that the dust/sand storms have been getting worse over the last few centuries as a result of desertification, then it is quite possible that the skies used to be clearer than they are now.  I believe NPCs do have (or had) astronomy it was just never fleshed out for PCs.  Telescopes exist, but since PCs rarely get their hands on them, there is no compelling reason for staff to spend a lot of time developing a complex system of stars. 


Modern day Zalanthas is a degraded society, it is post-apocalyptic.  There was a society, and then there was an apocalypse, and then the survivors gradually built back up to where we are now.  It is quite likely that the pre-Dragon society was far more advanced than modern society.  Besides, lost secrets of the ancients are cool.  Before the Dragon there were no Defilers, and there is every indication that the land was far more lush than in modern times.  I like to think that pre-Dragon society was very much like your typical fantasy/Tolkien/forgotten realms type setting with friendly halflings, bearded dwarves, and noble elves prancing around the forests and all that trash.  What survived was twisted by the cataclysm.  I figure that pre-cataclysm scholars of Zalananthas were about as far along as earthling scholars in the 1700s or so.  They hadn't made the leap to the industrial revolution, but they were not savages either.  Basic algebra is certainly within grasp.   

Then along can the Dragon and his defilers, to conquer and despoil the world.  Some learning they destroyed on purpose, because it was potentially dangerous to them.  Much more was destroyed incidentally.  Some was simply abandoned, and destroyed by time and weather.  Some was preserved by accident or design, and discovered by later explorers.  That is half the fun of being an explorer, that you may uncover some ancient secret that hasn't been scene in Ages (and that may be worth a lot of money).  Documents that are hundreds or thousands of years old tend to be in rough shape, and an ignorant person who discovers them by accident might be more likely to use them as kindling than to preserve them.  The stuff that is most likely to be preserved is whatever seems useful. 

Great libraries and ancient vaults may contain traces of much more advanced things like calculus, but it is unlikely that even one person in a generation is studying them, much less understanding them.  You can give the average high school graduate an introductory textbook on calculus, and they won't make heads or tails of it.  Give them a faded, fragmented text book on calculus written entirely in Latin, and our average high school graduate won't be able to understand very much at all. 

The most learned scholars in the land probably understand complex geometry,  you'd need at least that to keep building large non-magickal structures and those amazing argosies.  Useful maths and science will be kept in circulation, and there are probably mechanically and arithmetically adept slaves who are trained in useful math and engineering, because when you have to calculate everything by hand you are going to want some helpers.  Math and science that is not obviously useful would be preserved by a few dedicated noble scholars, but is probably not well understood by anyone.

[Tisiphone]

My biggest question is how they got this far without astronomy.

I figure that pre-cataclysm scholars of Zalananthas were about as far along as earthling scholars in the 1700s or so.  They hadn't made the leap to the industrial revolution, but they were not savages either.  Basic algebra is certainly within grasp.   

Great libraries and ancient vaults may contain traces of much more advanced things like calculus

I'll agree with the first point, but basic algebra doesn't comprehend nulls and negatives; 'tis more of a geometric subsitution system. Take a look at Diogenes. As far as calculus, I must strenuously disagree, unless the Dragon was a lot more destructive even than believed thus far. The leap to calculus boggles the mind.

[Lizzie]

Does your PC know how to cut and sew a dress, in a way that will actually fit someone? Then you're using geometry. Using math doesn't require knowing the right terminology, or even knowing that this -is- what you're doing. We use math, complex and basic, in our lives all the time. Even recognizing our own depth perception is using math. Being able to "look west" and see "very far" there's something that might be a mantis, is using math. You don't -need- to know exactly how far away it is, you don't -need- to know the exact trajectory or angle between you and that mantis, compared with the wind velocity and slope of the terrain. What you -do- need to know, is that it's "very far," that you have a "really uber war bow" and "a kick-ass arrow," and that the wind is blowing -toward- the mantis from your direction, so the arrow is most likely to actually get that far.

Your character won't know about 70-degree lifts or catching wind currents at precisely 22.6 degrees latitude and 197.94 degrees longitude. Your character won't NEED to know that. But that is exactly what your character is doing, even if he isn't aware of the terminology. He is applying math in his daily life, whether he knows it or not.

I would also say that any Nenyuk family member would have been born, raised, and bred to learn about complex math - they're the ones who make the locks, make the keys, make the sids, hold the sids, arrange the deposits and balances and withdrawals, negotiate construction on apartments, keep track of who is renting where and how much rent is owed and the odds that this person will die soon so they can/cannot promise Lord Bumfuck Borsail that his favorite big-dicked catamite will be able to move in to the building in the next month and yes, there is room in the apartment to accommodate his catamite's pet chalton, though it might be a tight fit. All this kind of thing involves not only simple addition and subtraction, but complex geometry (locks and keys), algebraic expression (average volume of a chalton + movement + velocity of its digestive waste, to determine whether or not his craps will actually land out the window if they keep him tied facing the living room, because no Nenyuk in their right mind would impose the job of cleanup on even their least valued slave).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, I could see them working nulls and negatives, absolutely. It's not THAT hard to understand.

Um....

Understanding nulls and negatives with respect to positive quantities and identities is quite different from understanding them per se (though I hesitate to use that phrase; it gives me metaphysical pause). I would, in fact, assert that you very likely think of them in the first way rather than the second, even though you probably don't think you think that way.

You're prolly right. But I only know of one way to think of negatives and nulls. I didn't even know there were other ways.

[Iota]

Yeh, I could see them working nulls and negatives, absolutely. It's not THAT hard to understand.

Um....

Understanding nulls and negatives with respect to positive quantities and identities is quite different from understanding them per se (though I hesitate to use that phrase; it gives me metaphysical pause). I would, in fact, assert that you very likely think of them in the first way rather than the second, even though you probably don't think you think that way.

You're prolly right. But I only know of one way to think of negatives and nulls. I didn't even know there were other ways.

Scrab ambush

[musashi]

Lizzie ... while I do appreciate where the first half of your post was going, it's sort of off the topic of what I had asked. I want to know how much math scholars in Zalanthas know ... which would imply that they would in fact need to have thought about it, come up with terms, and be able to understand it on that level.

While I do agree with everything you said in reguards to people using math without realizing it, that wasn't what I was asking about.

Per the 2nd half of your post though, I am of the mind that the banking house should probably have some advanced math-users in its ranks, given all the seemingly impossible things they do with currency and with housing in the game world.

[Lizzie]

Actually I was thinking on the order of the GMHs in general. I imagine the spice refinement process requires some serious precision and (guessing) Maybe even a little bit of chemistry understanding to ensure that the Kurac-stamped brick of Tho doesn't contain any significant amount of something -other- than Tho in it. I imagine that the -reason- that only Kadius can make "a plain red silk vest with green beaded buttons down the front" is because -only- they have enough understanding of math to get the pattern right without fucking it up. I imagine that the reason only Salarr can make *that* bone dagger, as opposed to *that other* bone dagger that every knife-making crafter can make, is because only Salarr has enough understanding of the math to get the blade honed, set, and balanced in exactly that way, consistently.

Rennick probably isn't taking a wild guess on watering and fertilization techniques when it creates its gorgeous gardens. It probably is using very precise measuring methods with equally precise proportions of various substances, and has calculated when to water, when not to water, when to send the slaves out to check, how far to cut back after a harvest of seeds, etc. etc. etc.

All of these things involve not only math, but an *understanding* of the math involved. Anyone can guess, or approximate. But people who specialize in various things that require the use of math, probably have been educated on that math. Otherwise, they'd just be some guy who tosses seeds in the ground, dumps a skin of water on it, and hopes some day it will grow into a plant. Or just some guy who makes generic green silk djellabahs, and not the ones Kadius makes, with the fine, almost invisibly thin silken thread on the hems, with a lace pattern no one has ever been able to duplicate during the entire existence of the current incarnation of the known world, post-dragon.

[Rahnevyn]

So what about algerba? Do they know about whole numbers (ie 0)? Integers? Rational Numbers?

I specifically avoided answering that one because really, I Don't Know. I'm not a math major (computer science comes close, but doesn't quite get there), and I don't want to answer definitively.

Part of the problem is that technology/culture in Zalanthas varies and can't be tied to one specific period in the ancient or classical world. They use bone and stone tools, have only primitive gunpowders, and little advanced seige technology to speak of. On the other hand, they are capable of creating giant, multi-room wagons, and advanced architecture. They have roads and sewers, and processes to refine natural resources into more usable forms, like Kuraci spice.

Let's assume they know all the math that is required to produce all the things you can find commonly used ICly in the world. If someone wants to write up an argument that proves Zalanthans would need knowledge of algebra, 0, complex numbers, etc. in order to produce what they have, I'd be interested in reading it. Answering any more definitively is probably above my pay grade.