During Combat...

[a strange shadow]

Scan/listen need to have little to no delay.  Scan should not break hide.

Those changes will undo the nerfing these changes inflicted on mundane rangers and assassins vs, well, everything.

[staggerlee]

I'm not sure magicker classes were ever meant to be balanced to mundane classes.  That situation is fabricated anyway, panicking about scenarios before they ever happen is kind of silly.

[Fathi]

I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....


You attack a blur!

A blur flees!

Edit: On second thought, this was a little IC to ask.

Desertman, I'd appreciate it if you'd edit that quote of mine.

[Desertman]

I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....


You attack a blur!

A blur flees!

Edited.

Edited again.

[Desertman]

I'm not sure magicker classes were ever meant to be balanced to mundane classes.  That situation is fabricated anyway, panicking about scenarios before they ever happen is kind of silly.

I agree, magickers shouldnt be balanced to mundanes. That point alone might make the fact that magickers could kill mundanes with no effort now moot. So I give you that.

For the sake of arguement...

I didnt notice a panick point. I was just presenting a concern of mine. No panick involved.



Also, I agree that scan/listen should not offer any delay.

[RogueGunslinger]

Edit.

[Fathi]

I think scan not breaking hide is a more important change than scan and listen losing their delays--scan and listen having long delays gives mundanes a disadvantage, but not being able to look around for hidden stuff when you are very good at hiding yourself just plain does not make sense.

I also think that all guilds should have scan to a certain low degree, but that's another argument for another day.


Edit: Ha, beat me to it, Rogue.

[Sephiroto]

I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....


You attack a blur!

A blur flees!

(Your scan that you used to see the blur has now went down)

Someone utters an incantation!

You are engulfed in a huge fireball and die like a little bitch.

(Magicker knew your scan went down so just came right back in the room and zapped you)

Or...

You attack a blur!

A blur flees!

You scan the area.

(Delay)

Someone utters an incantation!

You are engulfed in a fireball and die like a little bitch!

(Magicker knew you would be under scan lag and so just came right back in the room and zapped you)

I can see magickers seriously abusing the fuck out of this. Its going to be shit-silly simple to just fucking kill mundanes now, as if it wasnt before.

All they have to do is, flee, and come right back instantly, they will catch the mundane with no scan at all, or even better, in the middle of a scan delay.

The mundane will be fucked, no matter what.

Didn't we decide that we'll be auto-watching the person we attack?  If that's the case then Desertman's argument is bogus.  If we attack a magicker who is invisble and start auto-watching them then we shouldn't need to scan to see them.  We should still see them as a blur.

[Desertman]

I'm not sure. If this is the case, and watch does indeed still see a "Blur" even if your scan isnt on, then you are right, my arguement is bogus.

BUT, seeing as how neither of us know how that little bit of code works for certain, for the time being, it has no "bogus factor".

[Clearsighted]

Scan/listen need to have little to no delay.  Scan should not break hide.

Those changes will undo the nerfing these changes inflicted on mundane rangers and assassins vs, well, everything.

Seconded. Especially the not breaking hiding...

[Sephiroto]

Personally, I always watch blurs or shadows after spotting them so that I don't lose track of them.  Just because you catch sight of them doesn't mean you can track their every moment as you're scanning the entire area.

You have a pretty good point that we should worry over, Desertman.  If the code doesn't change to include an auto-watch on our targets than this advice should help.

[LittleLostThief]

I think that "battlefield awareness" is a BIG part of fighting.  That means noticing the little guy sneaking around your flank without making much noise.  A lot of times, it means noticing him before-hand, and realizing that he's far inferior to you as an opponent, and that eventually he'll be making his move when he thinks you aren't paying attention because that's his only chance.  The majority of your focus might be on the huge guy with the polearm in front of you, but you cannot defeat him with a dagger sticking out of your ribs.  You keep your eyes on that little guy -- you pay attention to him -- your awareness encompasses him and the threat he poses to you.

A great fighter doesn't tune out the rest of the world when he's in a fight.  He takes it all in and assesses every variable.  He's ready for anything, and he's paying attention to anything that might effect the outcome of the fight.  The person that gives their full attention to one opponent dies quickly.

I'm not sure I agree with this change at all.  I was on board for the changes to psionics, but limiting mundane skills doesn't seem very realistic to me from both a real world perspective or game balance.  Right now it will be entirely possible, and probably frequent, to spend more time "becoming aware" of your surroundings than actually fighting your opponents.  I don't think trading a few blows should make you blinded and deaf to everything going on around you.

[Sephiroto]

You're not blinded or deaf.  Again, you're fighting for your life.  If you want to remain hypersensitive and hyperaware, don't get into the fight.  Stand back, watch, and listen.

My character has scan and listen and I like this change, even if it gimps that character in comparison with the way the skill was.

[Desertman]

You have a pretty good point that we should worry over, Desertman.  If the code doesn't change to include an auto-watch on our targets than this advice should help.

The idea actually hit from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Because of code knowledge that some people have, they sometimes have a tendancy to hide/sneak and attack magickers, then flee, hide/sneak, attack...over and over and over again, simply because of this certain code knowledge that they have.

Now, imagine a magicker suddenly being able to do the equivelant on a mundane, but with fireballs/bolts of lightening as weapons instead of wooden swords.

Holy OUCH!

So, in a way something similar to this has already been abused in the past, I just dont want to see "THIS" abused in the same way, because this code feature being abused would be exponentially more drastic in regards to PK's on mundanes.

[LittleLostThief]

You're not blinded or deaf.  Again, you're fighting for your life.  If you want to remain hypersensitive and hyperaware, don't get into the fight.  Stand back, watch, and listen.

My character has scan and listen and I like this change, even if it gimps that character in comparison with the way the skill was.

I'm not sure that I'd attribute the world "hyper" to either of those.  You're not a superbeing with super powers -- you're a relatively mundane person with a keen eye and a good ear.  You need and use those abilities to fight with, to stay aware of the combat and most importantly how it might be changing.

It sounds like you're just trying to blindly agree with this because you think liking getting gimped proves something.  My character may have scan and listen as well, but I won't always.  I'll still disagree with this change long after I've left them behind.

Either skill is open to a wide interpretation as to what exactly it entails.  I guess the deal here is that each requires a large amount of concentration.  By this logic, I want listen and scan to be mutually exclusive.  By your own arguments, if you're doing both of these "active" skills, you shouldn't be able to look and hear at the same time.  By this same argument, using contact or barrier should also interrupt these skills.  You just can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time.

[mansa]

I think it's melee combat that causes interruption to your life, rather than concentration.

[Jingo]

Why don't we have these things break when struck by a reasonable blow instead? Something like 'lightly' or whatever is after that.

A sort of middle of both ends approach?

[LittleLostThief]

Combat, Barrier, Listen, Scan, Watch, Crafting, Casting...

Pick only one and exclude absolutely everything else.

I think this was a good idea for a fix that was taken just a little too far.

[Sephiroto]

Casting should be interrupted.

[helix]

stuff

How about there being a timer on hide that for x seconds after ceasing combat, you cannot rehide or become invisible?

[Qzzrbl]

Casting should be interrupted.

Best idea so far....

[Clearsighted]

Casting should be interrupted.

Best idea so far....

I disagree. It's the best idea ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.

[Lizzie]

1. I think scan should have its skill significantly -reduced- during combat, but not always auto-shut. So for example:

You're a ranger. You have max scan. You're trying to hunt, you're a damned good fighter for a ranger, and you're wearing decent armor. You spot a goudra. You approach the goudra, you hit the goudra. HARD. It has absolutely no chance to hit you back, because this particular goudra is totally outmatched by the rangerly awesomeness that is you. You could hit this puppy with your eyes closed while reciting Shakespeare, hopping on one foot, and drawing a pretty picture of a flower with your off-hand, and having a full-bore Way conversation with a defiler threatening to pick his teeth with your finger bone, all at the same time.

I can't fathom why your ranger would not be able to notice the greth sneaking past the fight. Your ranger doesn't -have- to pay attention to what he's doing, in this particular fight. Two hits with a single blade and that goudra is down for the count. So maybe he won't see a -third- animal sneaking past in hiding...because he has to pay -a little- attention to what he's doing...

Maybe it should be based on how well or badly matched you are against your opponent, plus how good your scan skill is.

Listen I have no problem with, being changed. Scan though, I can see -lots- of situations in which it makes sense to continue running.

[Rhyden]

Casting should be interrupted.

Doesn't 'reel' accomplish this already?

And if not it really should.

[Desertman]

Casting should be interrupted.

Best idea so far....

I will pray for this.