The "proper" responses to raiders.

[Qzzrbl]

4 raiders + guard <direction> = flee problem solved

Ranged weaponry and poisons can be a big help too.

Be strategic about your raiding.

[Synthesis]

4 raiders + guard <direction> = flee problem solved

Ranged weaponry and poisons can be a big help too.

Be strategic about your raiding.

Right...good luck getting ~10% of the playerbase in the game at any given time to work with you reliably, without some sort of staff support.  Maybe the Soh could pull this off, but independent raiders?  Highly unlikely.

Beyond that, I'm fairly certain that if you engage in combat, you cease guarding whatever you're guarding, so there goes that idea, unless you have 4 guys in a room with 2 exits.  Even then, it would be possible to circumvent this if your guards aren't paying close enough attention.

As far as poisons are concerned:  none of the easily accessible poisons are good enough to get the job done.  The inaccessible poisons are too rare and valuable to be wasting on people just to steal their boots.

[Heade]

I usually give them a second or two after they joined the room, then run away.

Yeah, thats spam-running. You're not giving them enough time to emote or perform any significant commands.

[Delstro]

They didn't give me any room to be reasonable. I've died to a few groups of raiders so far.
Look Tears the Kuraci C-elf
Look Half-giant subdue artist and human companion
Look group of Soh in the grasslands
Look PC halflings in the grey forest
Look Invisible Krathi as I'm chopping wood that turned me from 107 HP to -10 in one blow.
Look Hidden Sapper as I'm chopping obsidian and trying to contact someone trying to hire me
Look hot chick that wanted to Mudsexxx, but really wanted to run off with all my shit when I was naked.

Most of those were caused by me giving them the benefit of the doubt. Except for the Krathi, he just turned me into a hunk of carbon.

[Heade]

They didn't give me any room to be reasonable. I've died to a few groups of raiders so far.
Look Tears the Kuraci C-elf
Look Half-giant subdue artist and human companion
Look group of Soh in the grasslands
Look PC halflings in the grey forest
Look Invisible Krathi as I'm chopping wood that turned me from 107 HP to -10 in one blow.
Look Hidden Sapper as I'm chopping obsidian and trying to contact someone trying to hire me
Look hot chick that wanted to Mudsexxx, but really wanted to run off with all my shit when I was naked.

Most of those were caused by me giving them the benefit of the doubt. Except for the Krathi, he just turned me into a hunk of carbon.

You mean that previous twinky situations have made you feel like the only appropriate response for future interaction with various characters in similar situations is to resort to twinkish behavior in an effort to pre-emptively out-twink the twinkers?

[Tisiphone]

I was really hoping my thread wouldn't degenerate into people advocating new code. Really, this was originally just supposed to be about fostering proper roleplay.

[Jingo]

I was really hoping my thread wouldn't degenerate into people advocating new code. Really, this was originally just supposed to be about fostering proper roleplay.

Yeah, pretty much how I see it.

[Heade]

I was really hoping my thread wouldn't degenerate into people advocating new code. Really, this was originally just supposed to be about fostering proper roleplay.

The code is there to encourage and assist with "fostering" proper roleplay. The code ideas presented, in my opinion, have been born with that very idea in mind. 

[musashi]

Heade, I believe that given the speed of d-elves running vs. the speed of any other mount/thing in the game running it's safe to say that a few seconds is more than enough time for them to type "kill whoever". If memory serves me right d-elves are probably the fastest thing on the surface of the world. I some of my characters have tried to keep pace with them in the past, and it was like trying to outrun the sun.

Also please don't start accusing people of twinkish behavior on the board, and it's generally in bad taste and gets everyone in a right foul mood with you ... I'm speaking from experience learned in my younger days when I first started playing the game (go look up "What makes a good hunter RP" thread or something like that, I think you'll see what I mean 

As for the RP etiquette with raiders and the potentional code changes ... I agree with some of the other people who've posted in that I really don't think it should be easier for people to go raiding than it already is, and if I recall correctly ... the last time I spoke with staff about raiding they said to just try and keep in touch with them while I was doing it, and to not go really crazy because despite the game being a harsh unforgiving world, they're still a bit wary about having PC's whose entire purpose is to hunt the rest of the player base. (Of course that could have just been the opinion of one staff member, and not staff as a whole but ... for what its worth we don't have any more PC raiding clans do we?)

I think raiding in groups is the best, most tasteful way to get it done unless you're playing a sorcerer of doomy death. I'm generally pretty unsympathetic to the "But it's hard to get people online at the same time!" arguement because ... well ... it is hard, but everyone else who gets a group together does it. It just takes patience and good communication.

Lastly, I'm a big advocate of raiders only skimming a little off the people they raid, instead of trying to leave them in nothing but a loincloth. Much the same way that I'm a big advocate of burgulars and thieves not clearing out the entire apartment that they rob. To me that's more of just an OOC courtisy at heart, their are in game trains of thought to justify it but I'll be honest, I'm typically just more concerned with not messing up someone else's fun too terribly.

Last ... I don't really have any sympathy for the "But I can't survive off just raiding unless I do it a lot or take a lot when I do it." mentality. Hey I'm sorry, but that guy over there can't survive off just being a bard ... and that girl over there can't survive off just being a physician ... and he can't survive off just being a partisian to a noble. To me, it seems like there are actually only a few professions in the world that one can actually survive off of by doing only that. Hunting, Mining 'sid, and lumber come to mind. But beyond that, all the rest of us have to find other ways to suppliment our main role-played career so ... I don't see any reason why a raider shouldn't have to do the same.

So just to recap my thoughts on how to improve the raider situation without the introduction of any new code:

(1) Have a group, people will probably take a group more seriously.
(2) Don't take someone for everything they own, because it's mean ... kind of humilitating and they probably will want revenge.
(3) Find another job aside from raiding so you don't have to rely on that for all of your income.
(4) Keep staff in the loop so they know you aren't just looking for reasons to PK everyone. They're apt to treat you nicer for it.

[Dalmeth]

You want better raiding?  You don't need much code.

First off, enable watch to work at a distance.  Screw chase code, all you need to know is where your target is headed.

Secondly, modify the way mounts work.  Since I started playing this game, the most rugged, highest-capacity, and battleworthy mounts have always been the fastest.  All others are largely worthless except in specific situations.

By the way, battleworthy is mostly a combination of speed and size in regards to charge, which isn't really all that much of a consideration.  Inixes are not that much better than kanks in terms of game balance.

[Heade]

Also please don't start accusing people of twinkish behavior on the board, and it's generally in bad taste and gets everyone in a right foul mood with you ... I'm speaking from experience learned in my younger days when I first started playing the game (go look up "What makes a good hunter RP" thread or something like that, I think you'll see what I mean 

EDIT: Definition of "Mark" for those unfamiliar with the term. A mark is simply "the target of a crime" as used in this document's context.

Ok, first off, I'm not accusing anyone of twinkish behavior. If you look at the whole conversation, I asked what he did, specifically, and I defined twinkish behavior. And second, I'm not faulting him for it. I'm guilty of it just the same. If twinks keep pulling twinky shit on me, killing my characters or leaving them destitue, and the only way to avoid it is to spam-run away since they don't give me an opportunity to RP, I'd probably do the same as he. So please don't take this the wrong way.

Twinkish behavior perpetuates further twinkish behavior from others. Thats my point, and currently, thats just the way things are. And what I was suggesting wasn't to "make it easier" for raiders to raid. It was to encourage RP on the raiders part by giving them a counter-option to marks who just spamrun away, which IS twinkish behavior.

Think of it this way. Currently, many raiders might just run in and subdue/attack their mark because, in their experience, mark's just spam-run away when you try to RP with them. Marks, on the other hand, spam-run away because, in their experience, raiders just subdue/attack them without giving them the opportunity to pay a reasonable road toll. It's a vicious cycle. I'm trying to come up with a system that can change that a bit.

IRL, if I am close enough to politely tell you to hand over the sid, I'm going to be capable of chasing you in the event you run. The current code doesn't really allow that very well. If they had a "pursue" or "chase" command, I'd obviously be all for it taking mount speed/foot speed into account to determine if you could keep up with them or not. And if not, great, they get away. If you can, however, then piss on them for running, they can now be forced into combat.

There are things we can do to encourage more RP in raiding situations. In my opinion, those things are to implement code that allows for a "peaceful" median, in which someone can let you know that there is serious risk to your health in the event you don't cooperate, but doesn't necessarily have to lead directly to combat.

Again, I'm not trying to make it easier to raid. I'm just trying to make the code more condusive to RPing a raid as opposed to just taking immediate offensive action against you.

So, in closing, let me put it this way:

If you are opposed to code that allows raiders to chase/pusue/threaten you, thats fine. Just don't bitch when all they do without it is run in the room and shank your ass.  

[Synthesis]

The only things that can fix twinkish behavior on either side of the raiding equation are approach code and X/Y location grids within rooms.

However, as with all things:  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

Accursed Lands has both of these, and if some ancient, experienced character wants to raid you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it, short of fleeing in terror from -every- person who approaches you.  (Unless you can fly or breathe water.)  Of course, this might be ameliorated if you couldn't actively engage in combat while sprinting top-speed after your mark...but I digress.  As it's implemented there, it's a horrible system...you can't escape, because all humanoids move at virtually the same speed, so once someone gets close enough to engage you, you might as well not even try to run (unless it's to a body of water, where if they kill you, your loot will simply sink to the bottom...that's a protip for you all).  But you see my point:  unintended consequences and fixes to fixes.

[Heade]

The only things that can fix twinkish behavior on either side of the raiding equation are approach code and X/Y location grids within rooms.

However, as with all things:  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

Accursed Lands has both of these, and if some ancient, experienced character wants to raid you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it, short of fleeing in terror from -every- person who approaches you.  (Unless you can fly or breathe water.)  Of course, this might be ameliorated if you couldn't actively engage in combat while sprinting top-speed after your mark...but I digress.  As it's implemented there, it's a horrible system...you can't escape, because all humanoids move at virtually the same speed, so once someone gets close enough to engage you, you might as well not even try to run (unless it's to a body of water, where if they kill you, your loot will simply sink to the bottom...that's a protip for you all).  But you see my point:  unintended consequences and fixes to fixes.

I'm quite familiar with accursed lands. I played there for a long time.

I don't disagree with your "approach code" idea. But to have a system similar to what AL has basically takes a whole new approach to building rooms, as well. We're not talking about a simple fix with that idea. We're talking about a revolutionary change to the game that some here may not like. Travelling in AL is EXTREMELY tedius, almost exclusively because of the approach code.

The chase/pursue options that I've listed would take almost NO work to code at a rudimentary level, and would offer an alternative to running in and shanking you so you don't get away by spam-running.

Thats all I want here, people. An option other than directly attacking you without RP to ensure that you don't just hit "n n n n e e n e n e" As soon as I say, "Yo, the toll is 100 sids, hand it over."

As it is now, I completely empathise with both sides. I understand raiders who attack without warning. I understand marks who spam-run without RP. The problem is, neither of their behaviors is contributing to a good solution to the problem enherent with the code. So....change the code.

I also understand when people bitch about a raider saying, "Give me all your sids, and your weapons too."
Unfortunately for the people doing the bitching, this is a perfectly IC thing for a raider to do. If you don't wanna give it up, fight em for it. If you don't wanna fight em for it, hand over the weapons and be happy they left you with your mount to get back to civilization.

I DO, however, agree that there should be speed factors involved in making the chase/pursue code viable, so that if some dickhead raider really does try to leave you naked in the desert without a mount, you can have the option to try to run.

But in order for you to get away, I think you should have to have the coded skill/speed/mount to do so, instead of having the option to abuse unrealistic movement code. Thats all spam-running is, really. It's an abuse of code, when you realise all those miraculous escapes you've made are mostly due to catching the player, as opposed to the character, off guard.

Again, support it or don't support it. But if you don't, then don't bitch when a raider shanks you without emoting. And raiders who don't support it, don't bitch when people spam-run away without emoting. The current code doesn't leave either side much choice without relying solely on the trust, goodwill, and RP ability of the playerbase.

[Heade]

Hmm, I feel bad. Who's thread was this? I feel like I've hijacked it.

Oooh, I really am a raider.

[Clearsighted]

The only things that can fix twinkish behavior on either side of the raiding equation are approach code and X/Y location grids within rooms.

However, as with all things:  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

Accursed Lands has both of these, and if some ancient, experienced character wants to raid you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it, short of fleeing in terror from -every- person who approaches you.  (Unless you can fly or breathe water.)  Of course, this might be ameliorated if you couldn't actively engage in combat while sprinting top-speed after your mark...but I digress.  As it's implemented there, it's a horrible system...you can't escape, because all humanoids move at virtually the same speed, so once someone gets close enough to engage you, you might as well not even try to run (unless it's to a body of water, where if they kill you, your loot will simply sink to the bottom...that's a protip for you all).  But you see my point:  unintended consequences and fixes to fixes.

As opposed to the current situation in Armageddon, where if a somewhat experienced magicker wants to raid you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

[Tisiphone]

I was really hoping my thread wouldn't degenerate into people advocating new code. Really, this was originally just supposed to be about fostering proper roleplay.

The code is there to encourage and assist with "fostering" proper roleplay. The code ideas presented, in my opinion, have been born with that very idea in mind. 

Read the OP, and then dig through the archives.

[Cerelum]

The only things that can fix twinkish behavior on either side of the raiding equation are approach code and X/Y location grids within rooms.

However, as with all things:  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

Accursed Lands has both of these, and if some ancient, experienced character wants to raid you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it, short of fleeing in terror from -every- person who approaches you.  (Unless you can fly or breathe water.)  Of course, this might be ameliorated if you couldn't actively engage in combat while sprinting top-speed after your mark...but I digress.  As it's implemented there, it's a horrible system...you can't escape, because all humanoids move at virtually the same speed, so once someone gets close enough to engage you, you might as well not even try to run (unless it's to a body of water, where if they kill you, your loot will simply sink to the bottom...that's a protip for you all).  But you see my point:  unintended consequences and fixes to fixes.

As opposed to the current situation in Armageddon, where if a somewhat experienced magicker wants to raid you, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

[slight derail]

I haven't had the twinkness bug bite me in a very long time and I personally have never been able to get a magicker to anywhere near the "Scary" level that folks often refer to.  So that leads me to ask, do you guys sit there and rest till you have full mana, blast off all of it in Nil incantations then rinse and repeat for ten days played to get "scary" or "experienced".

Cause I personally wouldn't use a magicker to raid anyone without damned good reason, but I just haven't seen a scary magicker outside of staff animated and twink gemmed.

[/slight derail]

JaRoD

[Heade]

I was really hoping my thread wouldn't degenerate into people advocating new code. Really, this was originally just supposed to be about fostering proper roleplay.

The code is there to encourage and assist with "fostering" proper roleplay. The code ideas presented, in my opinion, have been born with that very idea in mind. 

Read the OP, and then dig through the archives.

Nah, just make your point here. I've read the OP.

[Tisiphone]

Nah, just make your point here. I've read the OP.

Obviously not closely enough. The last four pages or so of this thread have been done to death. This was conspicuously not about code, at all, in any way, shape, or form. Let it die.

[SMuz]

I think you have to learn to work with the code to be a good raider. I dislike people thinking that "roleplaying" is a way to work around the code. A great roleplay works within the code - things like guarding all 4 directions is how raiding should be done. I mean, if you tried to mug someone, the only way to keep him from running is to have him surrounded.

The existing code has plenty of ways to support raiders. I've figured quite a few, but I'll show you guys later There are so many ways to raid - just gotta figure out IC how to stop a guy from running, how to stop a guy from telling on you, and how to survive when he does.

Just play a PC raider like an NPC would. And play a PC victim like a NPC would too - but NPCs cheat. Those NPCs are damn twinks, running up GTA-style city-wide alerts even though you're wearing a cloak like every other guy in town. I don't see how any real player could be worse.

[musashi]

Just play a PC raider like an NPC would. And play a PC victim like a NPC would too -

Sorry but, I didn't understand this part of your post at all 

[Tisiphone]

I don't understand how the post is on-topic, but I've been hoping this thread would die for the last four pages.

[brytta.leofa]

How does magick and do magickers impact PC-vs-PC raiding?

I mean, codedly.

[Synthesis]

How does magick and do magickers impact PC-vs-PC raiding?

I mean, codedly.

Basically, a good magicker can wtfpwn! you before you can even type 'flee self.'

Of course, rogue magickers are sort of the natural predators of solo mundane PC raiders, heh...so...I guess their effects kind of balance each other out.

[Clearsighted]

How does magick and do magickers impact PC-vs-PC raiding?

I mean, codedly.

Without getting into specifics...

Crowd control.