The "proper" responses to raiders.

[musashi]

I respectfully disagree.

If you kill everyone you come across, I think it ends up being bad for business, and if you're a raider, I'm imagining that you're in it for the business ... since I figure someone in it for the killing would be a) insane, and b) apt to go into a city where there are way more folks to kill at his fingertips.

For me, it comes down to that old saying that you can shear a sheep time and time again, but you can only skin it once. If you kill someone on the road for their boots, you're robbing yourself of the chance for said person to bring you another pair of boots later on.

Likewise, murder brings the reckoning of the law much faster than robbery does, in any society, and it always has ... and will. (If you can find a society in which this wasn't the case, let me know as I'd be interested to read up on them). So the more you kill, the more you can rely on people finding you and killing you back.

Hence, I believe that a good raider should actually be doing very little killing, and a whole lot more skimming off the top of those they shake down.

[Jingo]

Getting killed out of the blue sucks balls. I want to die for any other reason than that somebody wants my stuff. And assuming that killing is the only way to get my stuff, I think is indicitive of a H&S mentality.

Your 'stuff' is exactly why you should be killed.

Wouldn't you rather just have the stuff and not have to go through the trouble killing for it? You're just making an excuse to PK.

Most of the 'raiding' I see isn't actually raiding. It's more along the lines of oppurtunistic killings. Really, I'd love to see a slaver raid on a tribal camp. Or a tribal raid on a caravan. Or a group of thugs running a toll booth along the north road. But all the raiding I see in this game is just some loner, wandering around and killing other PC's for their boots and then going back to the cities to interact and pretend there isn't something wrong with him.

[Lakota]

Hence, I believe that a good raider should actually be doing very little killing, and a whole lot more skimming off the top of those they shake down.

A raider who does very little killing will not live long, unless that player earns the respect of his/her victims oocly from excellent roleplay. Even then, whose to stop the player from going ooc and breaking tone with their character so they can get "revenge." I've seen people I let go come back with posses time and again.

Devising ways to mask your face would help this immensely, and the fix to the way has already helped alleviate the contact/break scheme to get someone's shortdesc before fleeing.

Raiders should also be -smart- though. Use different outfits when raiding, and get buds to help you.

[elvenchipmunk]

Hey sorry to ask this here, but what fix to the way Lakota? EDIT- Found it, never mind.

Oh and also, raiders, use clubs. Bash people upside the head. They won't have a chance to see you if you know how to use the club well enough (which presumably you do if what everyone is saying is true about raiders just killing), they don't die unless someone else comes along and finishes them, and you still get their goodies.

Cheers,
Elvenchipmunk

[AJM]

Next char is going to be a raider, I am going to spend half my life indie twinking. Then use my copious amount of moolah to randomly give money to people rather than taking it away.

[KIA]

Ooh, Robin of the Hood.

[audrey]

I think most raiders are too merciful. Most players can be such twinks when raided.. they look at the hooded figure and tell the templars every single detail from head to toe, hair color, beefiness of arms, etc. That kind of poor roleplay should be punished, even more than stealing from alert NPCs and attack spamming If I was a raider, I'd spare the people who didn't look at me, but I'd threaten to kill them if they sent a mercenary party after me.

Also, I think masks are a bit too rare in this game. Most RL 'raiders' just take a piece of cloth, cut holes in it, and put it over their heads. Why can't there be a maskcrafting skill for rebels and thugs?

[FightClub]

This thread has reminded me, that just because I contact a cloaked figure via' the way, I don't necessarily know who they are.  Seeing that your mental image of them is in fact the cloaked figure you contacted, not the sdesc that occurs.  Although I don't think I've been guilty of the above, it's a good reminder, thanks.

[RogueGunslinger]

So, when I see a PC at a distance with my newbie ranger. I think I'll just run for the hills from now on, it's not worth the risk.

That makes you a twink. Just figured I'd let you know.

[musashi]

So, when I see a PC at a distance with my newbie ranger. I think I'll just run for the hills from now on, it's not worth the risk.

That makes you a twink. Just figured I'd let you know.

Not so long as your ranger runs from humanoid NPC's he sees on the road as well. 

After all, he could just be anti-social.

[RogueGunslinger]

Good point.




Off topic;
I really wish I could interact with Musashi more in game more. Did it once a while ago, back when he told enough IC info for me to be positive it was him and If he played that well back then, I'd like to know how much he's progressed.

Musa: Quit playing indie roles, goddamnit.

[Jingo]

So, when I see a PC at a distance with my newbie ranger. I think I'll just run for the hills from now on, it's not worth the risk.

That makes you a twink. Just figured I'd let you know.

If I don't want to lose my character, it's kind of what it has devolved down to; Don't you think?

Especially if I know there are people out there that are going to kill me for my stuff and arn't going to consider an alternative?

[fourTwenty]

Umm, avoiding strangers seems to be intelligent rather than twinkish. Just my opinion.

[musashi]

Good point.




Off topic;
I really wish I could interact with Musashi more in game more. Did it once a while ago, back when he told enough IC info for me to be positive it was him and If he played that well back then, I'd like to know how much he's progressed.

Musa: Quit playing indie roles, goddamnit.

Ohhh ... thanks 

... ... I still think you're trying to kill me though.

[Jingo]

Umm, avoiding strangers seems to be intelligent rather than twinkish. Just my opinion.

Kind of like why nobody sleeps in the tavern dorms. It's intelligent.

[musashi]

I sleep in tavern dorms ... I also get robbed blind.

[Jingo]

I sleep in tavern dorms ... I also get robbed blind.

Does the robber immediatly quit out when you wake up?

[SMuz]

So, when I see a PC at a distance with my newbie ranger. I think I'll just run for the hills from now on, it's not worth the risk.

That makes you a twink. Just figured I'd let you know.

Uh, hardly, if I was out in the desert, and I knew that the place had plenty of raiders, I'd run. Quickly and quietly. Heh, someone mistook my first character, a hunter, as a raider. I bet I scared him half to death. No wonder he didn't even look at me for a while.

[musashi]

I sleep in tavern dorms ... I also get robbed blind.

Does the robber immediatly quit out when you wake up?

I usually don't wake up, I just: emote snorts a bit, rolling over as he murmurs something about being married.

[AJM]

because of the new way rules, isn't a bit easier to conceal yourself? just barrier when you are doing the dirty dead, and when you are a scene away your in the clear?

[staggerlee]

It isn't a code issue.

Mugging as a career choice is only for the truly desperate.  It isn't a profitable venture, and leads to nasty, brutish, short lives.  No amount of code change is going to make mugging suddenly safe, anonymous and awesome... and zalanthas wouldn't be a very harsh place if it was, now would it?

I'm pretty sure this thread already had extensive conversations on how raiding could work, but those of you trying to play "successful" muggers are always going to be in for frustration.  For your own sakes, I'd strongly recommend reconsidering the role you're trying to play and how it fits into the world.

[RogueGunslinger]

So, when I see a PC at a distance with my newbie ranger. I think I'll just run for the hills from now on, it's not worth the risk.

That makes you a twink. Just figured I'd let you know.

Uh, hardly, if I was out in the desert, and I knew that the place had plenty of raiders, I'd run. Quickly and quietly. Heh, someone mistook my first character, a hunter, as a raider. I bet I scared him half to death. No wonder he didn't even look at me for a while.

If your character knows there's been raider activity in the area, and sees someone at a distance then runs, that's absolutely okay. If you OOC'ly know there are raiders in the area, then make you character run away without a viable IC reason, then I'd classify it as twinking. If you just run from everyone you see out in the wild regardless... then how do you ever have fun? Fear of PC on PC death is the funnest part of Arm, IMO.

[Thunkkin]

If your character knows there's been raider activity in the area, and sees someone at a distance then runs, that's absolutely okay. If you OOC'ly know there are raiders in the area, then make you character run away without a viable IC reason, then I'd classify it as twinking. If you just run from everyone you see out in the wild regardless... then how do you ever have fun? Fear of PC on PC death is the funnest part of Arm, IMO.

What is your definition of "twink", exactly?

[Jingo]

If your character knows there's been raider activity in the area, and sees someone at a distance then runs, that's absolutely okay. If you OOC'ly know there are raiders in the area, then make you character run away without a viable IC reason, then I'd classify it as twinking. If you just run from everyone you see out in the wild regardless... then how do you ever have fun? Fear of PC on PC death is the funnest part of Arm, IMO.

Mostly I'm just not interested in losing my character in a one second raid. Call it what you want.

Mugging as a career choice is only for the truly desperate.  It isn't a profitable venture, and leads to nasty, brutish, short lives.  No amount of code change is going to make mugging suddenly safe, anonymous and awesome... and zalanthas wouldn't be a very harsh place if it was, now would it?

I've seen very few muugers/raiders and only one actual group of raiders that I thought did a good job of playing. Like I said, 95% of the time it's just some oppurtunistic player that wants your clothes and not someone who wants to play the lifestyle of a raider.

[Yokunama]

Probably the biggest problem with raiding I see is this:

Raider enters from the east.

Raider starts emoting out and roleplaying raiding yous.

You notice Raider is not nice and is not here to say 'Hullo'.

stand

mount kank

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And this behavior is one of the major contributing factors to the issues that likely surround PC raiding groups, because it perpetuates a viscous cycle that ends up with a lot of dead PC's.

My observations in many, many raids were that about 90% of all players we attempted to raid using RP first and code second would elect to spam coded commands rather than respond to the situation.  Very rarely did we encounter the people that would allow their characters to be raided.  Eventually, this behavior forced us to adapt our raiding styles to take a heavy-handed coded approach where we would instantly subdue PC's moving into our "room" to even create a chance to interact.

It felt as if we were having to force people to RP with us through the use of code.

Even in the clutches of a mammoth half-giant or a beastly mul, probably 90% of all players we attempted to raid would immediately struggle against the subdue and attempt to escape.  Even when they were told there would be consequences.  Even when threatened with their life.  They were SO against losing any of their previous belongings, or to submit to the power of another character, that they were willing to lose their character instead.

We had no intention of killing most people.  Dead people can't bring you more loot.  They can't spread word of your fearsome reputation.  There's no story to be told, at least not ICly.  However, I found the general behavior of the player base to be particularly discouraging to the raider archetype.  Even 1-on-1, the encounters that I had with people when trying to bully or raid them in the middle of nowhere generally resulted in them running or attempting to kill me -- all over my requested fee of 50 coins.

What results from all of these knee-jerk, hard-coded responses on the part of the victims are an adaptation on the part of the raiders to match your play.  The result is a group of raiders that begins to completely dominate the coded aspect of every encounter to even have a chance at RP.  And this heavy handed game play resulted in a lot of PC death.  While playing my raider, I was involved in the deaths of more PC's than all of the rest of my characters combined for a period of fifteen years.

Was it because we/I were bloodthirsty or irresponsible?  I would like to say no, since my tendencies are not to PK unless it's absolutely necessary.  Was it partially because of the nature of the business?  Sure, there were always people gunning for us with a bone to pick or, more likely, a sword to swing.  However, it was largely this battle for coded supremacy, waged simply to have an opportunity to interact with someone and create a scene, that ultimately resulted in so many PC deaths.  The Imms won't want to sanction, promote, or support any group of players whose MO (mission objective) will likely result in the deaths of several PC's, regardless of whether those deaths are deliberately planned or simply a byproduct of the encounter.

Those are some of the other challenges facing raiders and raiding groups in the game, and I don't see any intelligent solution on the horizon since much of the problem exists between the players themselves.  If the players won't allow themselves to be dominated, the already small window of opportunity that exists for a meaningful scene between a raider and victim often closes entirely.

And that's unfortunate, because it can be an incredibly exciting and interesting event.

-LoD

Having played a couple of authority figures with coded and immortal support, these groups suffer from many of these encounters, I would like to say this arguent LoD made works vice-versa.

I do not believe another coded device will help us solve this problem. We as players have to take a more responsible role towards every step we make in this game, allowing opportunity for both parties to enjoy themselves.