The "proper" responses to raiders.

[Tisiphone]

Many times do I see people claiming that raiding can no longer happen because of coded restrictions. Without impugning or supporting the legitimacy of that claim, I'll strive to make another: in order to encourage raiding, we need to play in a way that allows this role to exist.

I'm aware that this isn't an argument for making people change, but rather, an exhortation to change. I realize that my apology of behaviour here won't be able to force people to allow raiders to exist, as certain coded benefits and drawbacks might. Nevertheless, for the enjoyment of the players (as distinct from the coercion thereof), I believe it still needs to be made.

The primary problem I hear reported is that raiders are known and prosecuted too easily. The coded restrictions seem aimed at disabling the first; I hope to persuade to forgo the latter.

Firstly, in many "primitive" (apologies to anthropologists, but the word does get the point across), raiding is/was a respected occupation. (See Vikings, Herodotus 1:4?, 3:45, et. al., Bedouin, Araby before the Turks, etc.) As for all that, one might argue that this generally holds true before the establishment of city-states, but not after. However, a closer reading of the above sources combined with background on the surrounding civilizations should lead to the conclusion that even the established people care not who raids in the true wastes, and even do so themselves from time to time (see, for example, Herodotus again, and the behaviour of the Persians before and after Croesus).

Which all leads into my next point: city-bound authority generally shouldn't care who gets raided, so long as said raiding is no serious threat to their interests. If you attack Allanak's walls or outlying lands, expect to get a response from the Arm of the Dragon, but the Allanaki templarate shouldn't prosecute a resident who makes his money stealing from grebbers on the Salt Flats (though, if any of those grebbers get away, they may bring back friends), much less those who spend a good third of the year on the Tuluki grasslands. This holds less true for those whose jobs 'tis to police those outlying lands, but still, a templar should not ride out or ruthlessly track down any rumour of raiding that comes to his ear. It just should not matter enough, unless, as stated above, the raiders' activities constitute a non-negligible threat to the city-state (or Outpost; I haven't forgotten the Kuraci).

Unless I am mistaken, the most common reason that authority figures ruthlessly prosecute raiding (along with any criminal activity, no matter how slight), is a preference for activity rather than passivity (viz., boredom). The only solution I can give to this is a combination of awareness and self-control. A templar (or equivalent) has massive power of influence in the game, even though oftentimes while in the role it seems otherwise. Concentrate your thwarted energy into plots, or socialization, or even character development. Instead of responding to even the rumour of raiding, craft a mission and take your underlings on it. Everyone involved will have more fun that way.

Again, I recognize that my argument does not have the coercive force that a code-change might. Nevertheless, the underlying mentality necessitating the code change needs to be addressed, and I hope I have done a servicable job in the above.

[Prince Prig]

Though raiding within your own area is a possibility, I think the most successful raids (in recorded history) are those raids that happen in foreign lands. Quick, precise, and efficient. Then disappear. Like that. 

What do you need?

A loyal, fun, enjoyable, risk-taking, adventurous, blood-thirsty, ruthless, bi-polar group. (could be any one of these, not all required)
Members (or self) proficient and skilled enough to pull off a raid.
A safe haven to "disappear" into.
External connections that keep you updated and "in-the-know" of movement along the roads, etc, as well as provide background and a smoke-screen for information probing of potential bounty-hunters.

What gives a raid the highest success? Immobilize the target. That's it. No mount, no/little/static defense, slow wagon, etc. You just ride them down or tire them out and pounce before reinforcements arrive.

[Is Friday]

Asking the higher authorities to not care about raiding is all well and good until you have someone telling your character they're incompetent for not caring about what happens 6 leagues away in the grasslands because it's merely 16 rooms away.

[staggerlee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUD_factor

As with a lot of issues, we want to be very careful about blowing up an issue that may or may not exist outside of the forums.

With that said, raiding is a fairly precarious job.  Killing people for their money is never very successful in the long term in any society, it puts you at odds with the powers that be and everyone around you.  And rightly so, it'd be kind of ridiculous if criminals weren't persecuted.  Especially when operating in a totalitarian militaristic state.  (They don't like the competition)

With all those disclaimers aside, here's how you can increase your odds of surviving as a raider:

A: Don't frequently raid on major roads, near city states or mineral resources.  Why?  Trade, resource gathering, hunting, etc can all become profitable and even state sponsored activities. If you start disrupting any of those the state may swat you.

B: Don't raid people that matter.  Important people have friends and they're valuable to organizations.  When celebrities get killed under the watch of the guards, the state looks bad. When valuable people start dying, those that value them start making examples, setting precedents and wreaking vengeance.  You don't want that.

C: Buy your security. Templars and guards exist to be bribed. You want to make sure that nobody notices the next time you slip on and off the road to kill some idiot, buy a templar, pay them well.  This combines with point A and B, because if you're viewed as a problem than no amount of bribing is going to help you.

D: Remember your place.   You're scum, you live on the margins of society and you pick off people that nobody cares about for their money.   Don't expect to be a huge player in the world, don't expect to take on platoons, if you get greedy you'll probably piss someone off, and that's when you die. Similarly don't try to make a point by killing nobles or templar, thumbing your nose at the law, etc etc.

E: Don't shit where you eat. Preferably raid as far from home as you can.  And if home is becoming uncomfortable, find a home outside of the major urban centers.

[FantasyWriter]

I love raiding and I love being raided.
One of the biggest piece of advice is not to--pardon the language--piss in your own back yard.

Using Allanak as an example:

• If you are going to be raiding Nakis around Allanak, it would be a good idea for you to assume
  that you might be wanted in Allanak, and not go there with in the reach of the guards. 
  Pretend that you are codely wanted.  (if you would be IC)


• If you get to be a fairly popular raider, drop an email to the AoD IMMs.  If you are lucky, they
  might even have you perma-crimed in Allanak, and get the PC Templars and militia looking for
  you.  (RP, Plot, and Conflict: OH MY!)


• Tuluk, Luir's and Red Storm, most likely won't care that you are raiding Naki's as long as you
  aren't messing with any of the GMHs (they can have a lot of pull power).  You might even
  eventually me made a hero in Tuluk if you cause enough trouble for The Black.

Other advice for the raider:

• Choose your targets carefully.  (No soldiers, bynners, GMHs, etc.)
• Try to know who you are raiding.  (before you start your career, Hang out in the Gaj and get
      to know people: traders, grebbers, hunters, etc.)
• Listen in the other cities' bars for talk of trade trips coming from Allanak.
• Stalk people.

To kill or not to kill:
WWYPCD. What would your PC do?

• If he is in it for the coin.        Killing future repeat victims: not good for business.
• If he is in it for the prestige.  Kill some, leave most alive. (bonus points for having a calling card)
• If he is in it to survive.          Most likely would not kill unless he had to.
• If he is just a plain monster.   THERE MUST BE BLOOD!!!

Advice for the raided:
WWYPCD. What would your PC do?

• Taking off across the desert, trying to get away from a raider IRL and IC would most likely
       mean death. (even though it is codely easy)
• Is what the raider asking for worth risking our life?  If not, give it up and enjoy the RP.
• Remember that most players (and PC raiders<see above>)don't like to PK (kill their victims)
       when they don't have to, So if you give it up, you will probably live.
• Don't be a hero... docs say they are VERY rare.  100 coins is not worth dieing to your PC.

None of this advice is affected by the recent code change.

[Marauder Moe]

I absolutely agree that we need to challenge the assumption that identification = death for raiders.

As has been mentioned already...
Raiders should strongly consider not living in the same place as their victims.
Raiders should be prepared to bribe authorities (or counter-bribe as really money or other political favors should be the only reason local authorities should care about small-time raiders, or even better preemptively bribe).

Anonymity should not be your first and last line of defense.

[Qzzrbl]

A: Don't frequently raid on major roads, near city states or mineral resources.  Why?  Trade, resource gathering, hunting, etc can all become profitable and even state sponsored activities. If you start disrupting any of those the state may swat you.

B: Don't raid people that matter.  Important people have friends and they're valuable to organizations.  When celebrities get killed under the watch of the guards, the state looks bad. When valuable people start dying, those that value them start making examples, setting precedents and wreaking vengeance.  You don't want that.

C: Buy your security. Templars and guards exist to be bribed. You want to make sure that nobody notices the next time you slip on and off the road to kill some idiot, buy a templar, pay them well.  This combines with point A and B, because if you're viewed as a problem than no amount of bribing is going to help you.

D: Remember your place.   You're scum, you live on the margins of society and you pick off people that nobody cares about for their money.   Don't expect to be a huge player in the world, don't expect to take on platoons, if you get greedy you'll probably piss someone off, and that's when you die. Similarly don't try to make a point by killing nobles or templar, thumbing your nose at the law, etc etc.

E: Don't shit where you eat. Preferably raid as far from home as you can.  And if home is becoming uncomfortable, find a home outside of the major urban centers.

A: Mostly magickers and hardass rangers and warriors brave anything other than mineral deposits and main roads. Not to mention all of the dangerous NPCs about. Prepare to be burninated or face the blender. Potential raider? Yes, it blends.

B: Okay, so you avoid all of the very important people.... What's impossible to avoid though, are the commoner friends of the very important people. Hurl a spear at one of these people, and prepare to have the fury of an organization nipping at your ass after he tells his well-connected friend about that raider who's sdesc he got from using the Way.

C: A great idea, until one of your victims bribes said templar and guards even more than you do after spam-mining for five hours straight. And to keep that from happening, you'll have to pour every 'sid you raid into your bribery account and that = no profit. Unless you break rule B and knock over an argosy for phat lewt.

D: Capital idea.

E: Unless you live in a cave far, far away from civilization, any posse formed by a past victim can trot to any of the cities in the Known World and find you. It gets even worse when they have friends in every city who can do the deed for them.

[Marauder Moe]

...

Those are all very good reasons why raiding is hard.  For each one, though, your example pretty much consists of a raider coming into conflict with a character who's been around for a while.

A newbie raider should lose when he goes up against an experienced magicker, ranger, or warrior.

A newbie raider should lose when he goes up against a well-connected merchant, information dealer, or whatever.

A newbie raider should lose when out-bribed by someone... with more money than him.

A newbie raider should lose when being tracked and out-numbered.


You want to raid successfully?  Then don't be a newbie.

[musashi]

On a small side note: I have in the past, used the way to grab a raider's sdesc, so that I could send them a player kudo.

I think RP'ing out the raiding experience and not trying to leave the said mark naked in the middle of the road will also severely impact your success as a raider, from a strictly playability standpoint.

[Qzzrbl]

...

Those are all very good reasons why raiding is hard.  For each one, though, your example pretty much consists of a raider coming into conflict with a character who's been around for a while.

A newbie raider should lose when he goes up against an experienced magicker, ranger, or warrior.

A newbie raider should lose when he goes up against a well-connected merchant, information dealer, or whatever.

A newbie raider should lose when out-bribed by someone... with more money than him.

A newbie raider should lose when being tracked and out-numbered.


You want to raid successfully?  Then don't be a newbie.

Even experienced 100+ day ex-Byn raiders will be taken out by magickers, groups of pissed friends, out-bribed templars and guards, and well connected merchants.

[musashi]

Even experienced 100+ day ex-Byn raiders will be taken out by magickers, groups of pissed friends, out-bribed templars and guards, and well connected merchants.

Which brings us to our next bit of advice ... don't raid alone.

Robin Hood didn't, neither should you.

[staggerlee]

...

Those are all very good reasons why raiding is hard.  For each one, though, your example pretty much consists of a raider coming into conflict with a character who's been around for a while.

A newbie raider should lose when he goes up against an experienced magicker, ranger, or warrior.

A newbie raider should lose when he goes up against a well-connected merchant, information dealer, or whatever.

A newbie raider should lose when out-bribed by someone... with more money than him.

A newbie raider should lose when being tracked and out-numbered.


You want to raid successfully?  Then don't be a newbie.

Even experienced 100+ day ex-Byn raiders will be taken out by magickers, groups of pissed friends, out-bribed templars and guards, and well connected merchants.

I'd hate it if that wasn't true.

[Marauder Moe]

There are three types of power in Armageddon: combat (includes magick), wealth, and social.

A character strong in two or three of those types has an advantage over a character strong in only one.

[Qzzrbl]

Right, so none of those problems really have anything to do with being a newbie.

Also, getting a group of a few raiders together can be a real pain in the ass.

[musashi]

But is it any more of a pain in the ass for a person with a grudge to get a few of their friends together and go raider hunting?

It seems like both people are going to run into the same problems, like getting everyone online together ... communication issues ... planning, ect. So, if we're going to use "people who got raided can band together some friends and hunt the raider down" as an example, I'm just curious how it's any more diffuclt for them to do that, than it is for the raiders to get some friends of their own.

[Marauder Moe]

Right, so none of those problems really have anything to do with being a newbie.

A newbie is a character not strong in any of those types of power.

[Qzzrbl]

But is it any more of a pain in the ass for a person with a grudge to get a few of their friends together and go raider hunting?

It seems like both people are going to run into the same problems, like getting everyone online together ... communication issues ... planning, ect. So, if we're going to use "people who got raided can band together some friends and hunt the raider down" as an example, I'm just curious how it's any more diffuclt for them to do that, than it is for the raiders to get some friends of their own.

It's easier to get a group of friends around to go hunt down that bastard who took your ring than to convince your possibly relatively law-abiding buddies to go out and beat people up for money.

[Fnord]

Raiding long term will never work on Arm because once you're identified, it gives 90% of the MUD someone to gun for. Then, it's only a matter of time...

[Clearsighted]

Actually, the major problem regarding raiding in Armageddon is very simple to identify. It goes beyond the whole...needing to be an experienced PC and how ridiculously easy it is for you to be slain if you're a mundane raider (and there is nothing inherently wrong with either).

No, the major the problem facing raiding is that historically, people raid because it was more profitable for them than to work within the system. Or in the case of Vikings, staying home and growing crops.

In Armageddon, it is VASTLY more beneficial and easy to work within the system. Just about the only city clan that has any kind of real poverty is the Byn. Just about every other Clan is easy street. If you just stay alive and don't do anything stupid, you can become very comfortable and get your own little apartment and keep skilling up. As opposed to living a few days in the wilderness and dying to a mantis, hole or rogue gicker.

That's not to say some raider groups don't form. Sometimes you get some brilliant players together. There are a couple examples I and everyone else can think of.

[Tisiphone]

Raiding long term will never work on Arm because once you're identified, it gives 90% of the MUD someone to gun for. Then, it's only a matter of time...

Which is what the OP is trying to change. "Let's try to persuade that 90% not to jump at the chance to kill every raider it comes across."

Yes, I realize the weakness of the approach. I'm making it because we already have plenty of people holding the other flank, and this one, if successful, leads to intrinsically better gameplay.

[touringCompl3t3]

Tis,

I like the idea.  I'd like to see more misfits, outlaws and crooks in the game.

That being said, the playerbase is too small to properly support certain classes properly including hooker, wagon-wright and yes let's admit it raiders.

The problem with playing a hooker for example or a raider is that you will get drawn into political plots by bored law enforcement/spies/templars and end up getting rolled.

In a perfect world, the playerbase would have 900 active members making enough background lawlessness that one or two small bands of raiders could start small camps together and pull a couple of raids a week without really bothering any of the powers that be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to piss on your idea.  I like your idea.  But I've come to accept the conclusion as inevitable. 

That being said, if you really, really really want to play a raider, you can pm me and perhaps we can play a brother/sister raid team or something.

But keep in mind that's it's going to be a lot of work.

[Tisiphone]

In a perfect world, the playerbase would have 900 active members making enough background lawlessness that one or two small bands of raiders could start small camps together and pull a couple of raids a week without really bothering any of the powers that be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to piss on your idea.  I like your idea.  But I've come to accept the conclusion as inevitable. 

That being said, if you really, really really want to play a raider, you can pm me and perhaps we can play a brother/sister raid team or something.

But keep in mind that's it's going to be a lot of work.

Really, I'm just trying to do my small part for changing the mindset of the game. Sure, raiding is next-to-impossible now - but mostly because we have a collective illusion of its impossibility.

[touringCompl3t3]

Really, I'm just trying to do my small part for changing the mindset of the game. Sure, raiding is next-to-impossible now - but mostly because we have a collective illusion of its impossibility.

And you've done your part wonderfully.  If ten noobs read this post, probably five of them will walk away from it with something meaningful.

But two months from now we'll have a whole new crop of noobs, and four months from now some of those guys will be playing templars.

And anyone brave enough to be playing a raider when this happens will have their hopes/dreams crushed when their characters get eaten for no good reason by an unrealistically strong law enforcement response. 

I'm not picking on your post, it's awesome.  But I think that the next step is to actually engineer a solution to the problem. 

The root cause of the problem is boredom and a lack of anonymity.  The only realistic solution that I can see is more players. 

Some roles work pretty well in the game, i.e. gritty Byn trooper, rough and tumble hunter or frou-frou noble.   Others take quite a bit of work to pull off, and I think that players should know what they're getting into when they decide to sink forty or eighty hours of their life into building a raider -- they're taking on a thankless task that will result in them getting moshed one day while they're AFK by a gang of bored PCs who probably won't emote.

Really, my point is that one or two bad apples can ruin things for the rest of us.  Even if you educate, 80, 90 or 95 percent of the playerbase one errant staff member or sergeant can pull the heat down on a gang of raiders who are contributing much to the game atmosphere. 

Maybe the docs should be modified?

Maybe the docs should go from saying:

most commoners fear elves, templars and spell-casters


to read

most commoners fear elves, templars, thieves, gangsters, raiders and spell-casters

in order to give players the idea that they should probably leave certain castes of characters alone. 

But yeah, in case any noobs are reading this THE ORIGINAL POST IS TOTALLY AWESOME AND I AGREE.  DONT SNICTCH OUT RAIDERS IT ADS NOTHING TO THE GAME.

But we really need to expect that one or two bad apples will slide through and rain on the parade. 

What solution will you suggest that wouldn't be spoiled by one or two bored peeps?

[NoteworthyFellow]

I just want to point this out, since I think it might help:

A formal post will be put on the Weekly Update & Staff Announcements when this goes live.

A code change is being tested that will make it so that you can only use someone's name, keywords and REAL short description when contacting them from any room other than your current room.  Keywords granted from temporary short descriptions (such as from hoods/masks/face-wraps, whatever) will not be usable.

Note that this does not change the way contact works if you are in the same room with someone.  You will be able to use hooded/figure etc... to contact them if they're in the same room. 

We (we being the staff of Armageddon) feel this brings the code into line with our vision of how contact targeting should work and at what level it can be used to determine who someone really is.

[Tisiphone]

What solution will you suggest that wouldn't be spoiled by one or two bored peeps?

I'm all behind a hypothetical coded solution, and agree that 'tis absolutely necessary. The mindset's for the betterment of the experience, not the causing of it.