Sdescs over the Way -- A Suggestion and Discussion

[Delstro]

As much as Qzzrbl's post makes my brain.... something...

I've always had a small issue with people not adding keywords to themselves because they don't want them. I -do-, please believe me, understand the reason not to. I'm the type of guy that says "Wow, they're nicknaming me Tuluk... maybe I'll addkeyword that"

This is null and void if we add keywords to PCs that only we can use.

Qzzrbl's idea is ingenious. It makes my head explode at how awesome it is. Just because I have the keyword snuzzle bunny for a keyword because that is what my mudlover call me, doesn't mean the alleyrat from the opposite city-state should also know me as snuzzle bunny. Qzzrbl's idea is for Amos.1 to give Markus.1 the keyword of playahata. That is Amos' secret name for Markus' and Amos' gang. Now, in the current game, Calla.1 (Who was told to find Playahata by a third party) can walk up to Markus and go "Look playahata."

Right now, Markus would have to convince the player of Calla that Call didn't know his name is playahata. With Qzzrbl's awesome idea, Callas player would actually have to ask other Pcs around here before finally locating Markus.1.

Someone once told me that to fool the character, you have to fool the player. Right now, you can't fool the character, so you can't fool the player. If the player knows for 100% fact that you are playahata, then you can't convince them otherwise. If they are a stellar roleplayer, you can RP with them and they will be convinced ICly, but come back to you tomorrow and say, "Oh, so-and-so told me you are playahata." When in fact so-and-so did not. Qzzrbl's idea would make so many ideas a lot more doable and fun.

[Riev]

I would throw my hat in to having keywords for -other- people instead of for yourself. I don't know the code, so I don't know how much of a workaround it would be, but if you want to be known as "Jason", tell people your name is Jason. They'll have to addkeyword (or whatever) if they want to call you by anything other than "the burly man in the hockey mask".


Though, I admit, that would be more work on the Player's part to remember to add things...

[touringCompl3t3]

...

Someone once told me that to fool the character, you have to fool the player. ...

I like that.  I think that ought to be added to advice for new players, "If you plan to play a thief, you'll have to outsmart other players entirely"

=-)

[Yam]

I have absolutely no problem with how the Way currently works.

[tortall]

Then why bother creating a name when you name a character? Then you can use ANY NAME YOU WANT! No one can randomly guess that you are amos.

NOTE: I think this is a stupid idea, but that seems to be where other people are going.



So, maybe I've just been away too long, and this is why I don't understand the need for this idea.

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

[fourTwenty]

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

Because the sneaky classes in this game could be enormously fun but they need a lot of work. Sdesc sniffing via the Way is an OOC tool used by certain members of the playerbase to circumvent IC circumstances. And its twinky as hell.

[Qzzrbl]

I've always heard of "back in the day" when raiders ran rampant.

As did thieves and burglars.

A time when going outside the gates was actually dangerous, not only because of the NPCs, but because of other players too.

I've never been raided once.

I've only been burglarized once.

And I've never been inclined to try to play either, because it's so easy to "contact cloak" *get sdesc*.

The basic response to this problem was once, "Just use barrier."

But now we just can't do that, due to recent changes.

Besides, the idea will encourage interaction and will help sneakies keep their identities a secret if they want to.

Plus, it just kinda makes sense that if Amos told me his name was "Jak", I wouldn't be able to identify him as "Amos". Why? Because I'm not a mind-reader.

With the current system, Amos can tell me his name is Jak, but because I suspect that he might be Amos, I can just type "look amos" and confirm my suspicions, leaving me unconvinced OOCly, and making most IC decisions IG that depended on him not being Amos shaky.

This makes it impossible to play criminals who don't avoid most any and all PC contact.

I want more crime.

I want to be raided.

I want to be stolen from.

I want this game to be -harsh-, like it says it's supposed to be.

[tortall]

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

Because the sneaky classes in this game could be enormously fun but they need a lot of work. Sdesc sniffing via the Way is an OOC tool used by certain members of the playerbase to circumvent IC circumstances. And its twinky as hell.

From my understanding, however, they could only find you if you had your hood up. Or they wouldn't find you with contact figure. Seeing as how other sneaky types are the only ones that walk around a lot with their hoods up.... What's the big deal?


Qzzrbl:
I see what you're saying, but why would you have ANY clue that this person who introduced himself as Jak is actually Amos? I have NEVER been in a situation like that. Maybe I'm jus missing out on part of the game. I still see no need for it.

[a strange shadow]

I was going to make a mildly bitter, snarky post, but I thought the better of it.

Instead, I will invite people to look at what sort of guilds fulfill those roles (raiders, thieves, spies) in the game today, and then to consider why, and try to be part of the solution, rather than a continuation of the problem.

[fourTwenty]

Maybe I'm just missing out on part of the game. I still see no need for it.

Maybe you just answered your own question. It's not always <contact figure>. If I go through the trouble of knocking you out instead of killing you, and ...Well, other things in order to be a successful Raider... I shouldn't have it all shot to shit because I want people to start fearing the Raider in The Masky mask of maskyness.

This kind of shit could make for some fun and interesting RP for a lot of players. It -could- if it was not possible to contact Masky and get my sdesc. And no, barrier will not prevent this, please refer to X-D's post on how barrier functions

[Qzzrbl]

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

Because the sneaky classes in this game could be enormously fun but they need a lot of work. Sdesc sniffing via the Way is an OOC tool used by certain members of the playerbase to circumvent IC circumstances. And its twinky as hell.

From my understanding, however, they could only find you if you had your hood up. Or they wouldn't find you with contact figure. Seeing as how other sneaky types are the only ones that walk around a lot with their hoods up.... What's the big deal?


Qzzrbl:
I see what you're saying, but why would you have ANY clue that this person who introduced himself as Jak is actually Amos? I have NEVER been in a situation like that. Maybe I'm jus missing out on part of the game. I still see no need for it.

There are plenty of situations in which I might OOCly suspect anyone of being someone else.

Let's say I have to deliver a secret message to Jak, and if anyone named "Amos" hears a single word of it, then the entire plan is ruined and you'll die.

I lack restraint in situations like this, and I know I'm not the only one who will throw out a "l Amos" before relaying the message to Jak. If that makes me a bad player, then have peace of mind that I have no karma.

My idea makes it to where you can fully convince someone not only ICly, but also OOCly that you are not Amos. This opens up countless possibilities for stuff not possible with the current system.

And again, it'll give everyone more than enough reason to interact with eachother.

And about the hood up thing, I'm not about to leave my hood down as I rush past you outside of your apartment after breaking in and pissing on your bed. As I'm running, you could easily, "contact figure" and get my sdesc as I make my escape. It's happened before.

::Edited to add:: And you're missing out on that part of the game because nobody does it anymore. Because it's so easy to get caught.

[Reiloth]

I've always heard of "back in the day" when raiders ran rampant.

As did thieves and burglars.

A time when going outside the gates was actually dangerous, not only because of the NPCs, but because of other players too.

I've never been raided once.

I've only been burglarized once.

And I've never been inclined to try to play either, because it's so easy to "contact cloak" *get sdesc*.

The basic response to this problem was once, "Just use barrier."

But now we just can't do that, due to recent changes.

Besides, the idea will encourage interaction and will help sneakies keep their identities a secret if they want to.

Plus, it just kinda makes sense that if Amos told me his name was "Jak", I wouldn't be able to identify him as "Amos". Why? Because I'm not a mind-reader.

With the current system, Amos can tell me his name is Jak, but because I suspect that he might be Amos, I can just type "look amos" and confirm my suspicions, leaving me unconvinced OOCly, and making most IC decisions IG that depended on him not being Amos shaky.

This makes it impossible to play criminals who don't avoid most any and all PC contact.

I want more crime.

I want to be raided.

I want to be stolen from.

I want this game to be -harsh-, like it says it's supposed to be.

I fail to see what the problem is, as I believe it would be just as hard to contact another person during combat. You are worried that they will flee and contact you?

[Qzzrbl]

Code Select Expand


Barrer
You've set up a barrier, yo.

tell merchant (viciously pointing ~sword at !merchant) Stand and deliver! One look at me and ya's dead! Eyes to th' sand!
Viciously pointing your sword at the scared little merchant, the cloaked raider exclaims, "Stand and deliver! One look at me an' ya's dead, eyes to th' sand!"

The scared little merchant attacks you.
You feel your mental barrier fading away
The scared little merchant flees

thinking oocly: "Shit, shit, shit, shit.

Barrier
You fail to set up a barrier.

Barrier
You fail to set up a barrier.

You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

You feel a foreign presence withdraw from your mind

Not to mention all of the other crazy awesome things that will be possible if anything similar to the idea is implimented.

[Delstro]

The importance of picking a name at creation.. Well. There is a lot of power in a true name. That is all that should be said about that.

I have tried to play a spy before and got killed. Why? Because I had my other name as a keyword, a name I did not use at all in this opposite city state. I changed my sdesc, mdesc, and was only killed because of one name they did not know me as and they were absolutely convinced I was him -just- by them being told my -other- name. That sucks.
I once tried to have a raider that inspired terror in those traveling. I raided a person, waited until they were out of sight, and as soon as that happened, I removed my cloak. To inspire fear and awe as a raider, you need to look roughly the same so people can relate stories and tell how awesome you are. My third raid, and 7 days playing time as a warrior with awesome stats, I get Someone contacts you, then breaks contact. I get back to the city state I live out of, the opposite city state I raid near, and I was killed for being a raider. Awesome. teh suck.
Same situation with a pickpocket.
Same situation with an assassin.

Qzzrbl's idea would make all of those situations highly unlikely. That is why he has my *censored* Karma.

[Qzzrbl]

Qzzrbl's idea would make all of those situations highly unlikely. That is why she has my *censored* Karma.

Dude, what's with the gender confusion in the GDB?

[Delstro]

Typo.

[Ammut]

I far too often have people contact me, then withdraw shortly after.  Here I am, thinking I'm going to get to talk to someone new and exciting, but they let me down 

I am all for the earlier suggestion to have an 'image' command to draw upon their sdesc, allowing the one being contacted to expel the mind of the intruder and keep their anonymity.  Obviously if you don't force them out quick enough they could find out who you are, but it would at least give the one being contacted a chance.

[musashi]

Um ... I dunno if this idea has ever been tossed out but ... how about when you contact a person who's sdesc is hidden because of a cloak/hood/whatever ... ...

... ...

... ... the description you're given via the way ... is that same cloak/hood/whatever concealed description you tried to contact.

[Bushranger]

Personally (i.e. this is not a staff position I am advocating) I like the idea of having a "psionic sdesc" that you create at character generation. This sdesc would be used in lieu of someone's actual sdesc when you contact them. This psionic sdesc could be a representation of their personality, their mental self-image, etc.

Example:
Bob - the short, dark man (real sdesc) also has "a fizzing ball of purple goo" as his psionic sdesc.
Sandy - the tall, blond woman (real sdesc) also has "a bloody, bruised fist" as her psionic sdesc.

Bob attempts to contact Sandy -
> contact Sandy
You contact <a bloody, bruised fist>.

Sandy attempts to contact Bob -
> contact fizzing ball goo
You contact <a fizzing ball of purple goo>.

Bob attempts to contact Sandy -
> contact tall blond woman
You contact <a bloody, bruised fist>.

The psionic sdesc would not be available to use as keywords for anything besides psionics; that is, "look fizzing" wouldn't target Bob.

However... that being said, I think people get a bit too uptight about "sdesc sniffing." A hooded cloak is not a magick illusion that prevents people from getting a look at your features. On the other hand, I think we should entertain the idea of "levels of hiddenness." A cloak with a deep enough hood to really mask you from being identified is going to have drawbacks - loss of peripheral vision and hearing are going to impact skills like scan, listen, and watch. A facewrap that is opaque enough to conceal your facial features might cut down your visual range by a room. In other words, if we're going to implement items that are really and truly designed to make someone difficult to identify, I'm ok with that, but there have to be tradeoffs.

I like both of these ideas, five appendages up from me!

Bushranger

[Tisiphone]

Um ... I dunno if this idea has ever been tossed out but ... how about when you contact a person who's sdesc is hidden because of a cloak/hood/whatever ... ...

... ...

... ... the description you're given via the way ... is that same cloak/hood/whatever concealed description you tried to contact.

I like this idea the most. We could even plausibly justify it, by claiming that in order contact someone, your mind forms an image (woo imagination!) and then casts over the Way for the essence that matches your image as you image it.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Um ... I dunno if this idea has ever been tossed out but ... how about when you contact a person who's sdesc is hidden because of a cloak/hood/whatever ... ...

... ...

... ... the description you're given via the way ... is that same cloak/hood/whatever concealed description you tried to contact.

I like this idea the most. We could even plausibly justify it, by claiming that in order contact someone, your mind forms an image (woo imagination!) and then casts over the Way for the essence that matches your image as you image it.

I rather like this, too, if we're not going to implement new commands.

Perhaps the best way to "explain" it would be that the mental image that returns to a person making telepathic contact over the Way is an image that is "sent" by the one who was contacted, which will match their appearance at the time.

Either that, or simply make it so you can't "contact figure" unless they're in the same room as you.  It could respond with "That is not specific enough--your mind is unable to make contact with an individual."

[Qzzrbl]

Using mental descriptions would far from eliminate sdesc sniffing. It would just make it a little harder.

Code Select Expand

The room [N]
You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room.
It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy
room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description
here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a
room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy.
Roomy room description here.
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
The short, wiry man is standing here.
The young lad is here.

You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

The image of a big bag of obsidian dicks tells you over the way, "I'm gonna kill you."

You feel a foreign presence leave your mind.

You think to yourself, feeling annoyed, "Who did that...?"

Contact muscular.

You contact a big bag of agafari dicks.

You think to yourself, "Nope...."


You break contact with a big bag of agafari dicks.

contact wiry

You contact a big bag of baobab dicks.

You think to yourself, "Mm, not this one neither...."

You break contact with a big bag of baobab dicks.

Contact lad.

You contact a big bag of obsidian dicks.

You think to yourself, "Aha!"

Kill lad.


My idea would make this all but impossible....

And would also make it impossible for something like this to happen.

Code Select Expand

The room [N]
You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room.
It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy
room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description
here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a
room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy.
Roomy room description here.
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
The tall, well-built man is standing here.
The towering, muscled man is standing here.
The colossal, freakishly large man is standing here.

The templar tells you over the way, "Your target is Amos, he's a tall feck, and works out pretty regularly."

You think to yourself, "Gee, who could it be?"

look amos

kill amos

Really, how can you look at someone with just their name if you've never met them before?

It makes zero sense.

http://a516.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/107/l_701fb75deca7088e219669ef2ef69ad3.jpg
^ You're told to look for a man with brown hair, wearing blue jeans and a black shirt. His name is Qzzrbl. He must be eliminated.

Good luck.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The best way for psionics to not reveal identity to the typical mundane would be this:

>contact Amos
You make contact with someone's mind.

>psi Hi.
You send someone's mind a telepathic message.
   "Hi."


That's all the change that is needed. If you get the wrong mind, oh well. If you get the right mind, somebody will contact you in return. There'll be no more identity issues based off of a mind. And psionists will still see what we all see now.

The code change would be minimal.

[staggerlee]

Meh.  I don't think it's a big deal.

There's a lot of stupidity on both sides of identifying people.  I don't hear anyone complaining that bandits shouldn't be able to hide their voice, body type, odor, weapons, armor and everything else under a generic dark hooded cloak item that everyone in the game has, with no way of seeing through it unless they happen to be in the same room as you and give you time to hit look.  I mean... that's sort of ludicrous.

I'm also not convinced that "sdesc sniffing" is the leading cause of death with bandits, and anecdotal evidence isn't very convincing.  It seems like a vocal minority are making a really big deal out of this.  Either way it's come up, many, many times and I'm sure staff have heard a whole lot of arguments on both sides, there are more than a few threads to search through on the debate.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A vocal minority plays raiders, and I assure you, it is a problem just as they are describing, though location is also a factor that is not being given as much attention. Most certainly, sdesc sniffing hurts a great deal.

It is a valid concern.