Changes in the Barrier Skill

[Yokunama]

Really, there never was a bug.  It was just a conscious decision of the staff to change the skill, just as they changed it in the past.  So to be more accurate, this was a "code change."  The reason why I say this is because it's not like the staff were unaware of how the barrier skill worked.  Something prompted it.  Whatever it was, there was probably some logical reason (player complaints) for the change.

Me?  I liked barrier how it was.  You might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too if you're going to make our barrier break.

I feel the same way

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I've always sort of wondered why barrier didn't drop but contact does.  I'm still not too happy with it for various reasons that other folks aren't happy with it, but if other stuff surrounding the nonhappy reasons gets looked at, I suppose I'm cool with it.

Not that it would probably matter so much if I wasn't 

[FantasyWriter]

If I'm not mistaken, Barrier is a passive skill, not active. 

4. Barrier is not a passive skill. It does way too many things on way too many levels for it to be a passive skill.

That's not what the help file says:

Psi Barrier     (Communication)

The barrier command will attempt to erect a mental barrier around your character's mind, shielding it from most psionic interference. The duration of a direct mental barrier is dependent upon your character's wisdom attribute and skill proficiency. As with all sustained psionic powers, the cease command will lower the mental barrier.

Syntax:
    barrier

    Note:
    Psionic barrier is affected by your nosave setting. If you have erected
    a mental barrier but have nosave on, your barrier will be automatically
    lowered.

    A thorough understanding of this passive defensive technique is
    essential before learning about any aggressive defensive techniques.

[staggerlee]

I believe Nusku is using the term "passive skill" as a way to refer to its mechanics.  The term "passive" in the help files is used in a different context, to refer to practical use of the skill in a more colorful, ic sort of sense.  Its parallel to the world aggressive later should clarify its meaning.

I'm pretty sure that Nusku wasn't refering to passive as the opposite of aggressive, but that he was referring to passive as the opposite of channelled.

Contextualize!  Sheesh, you're a smart guy.

Disclaimer: Staggerlee has no opinion on the changes to Barrier. There are probably drawbacks either way.

[FantasyWriter]

Touche... it's early.

Hopefully awake soon,
FW

[Nusku]

I'm pretty sure that Nusku wasn't refering to passive as the opposite of aggressive, but that he was referring to passive as the opposite of channelled.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Staggerlee. Barrier appears in your "stat" list and continuously drains your stun, which classifies it as a channeled ability. The continued stun drain should be everyone's clue that there's continued focus required to maintain the skill.

You might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too

I'm surprised they don't already. You're right, let's be consistent and drop those too.

[a strange shadow]

That's not even funny, man.

[musashi]

I did always find it odd that I could watch/scan/listen while fighting off a pack of gortok, but could not watch/scan/listen while sitting down to catch my breath.

Anyway as for barrier, I wonder just how bad the exploit everyone seems to know about (and that Nyr keeps editing away when they post it) could be abused, or how often. Hopefully staff will consider that.

I'm pretty sure they probably already have, or at least started to.

EDIT: Actually if memory serves, you can listen sitting down ... still can't scan/watch I believe.

[a strange shadow]

I'm pretty sure that Nusku wasn't refering to passive as the opposite of aggressive, but that he was referring to passive as the opposite of channelled.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Staggerlee. Barrier appears in your "stat" list and continuously drains your stun, which classifies it as a channeled ability. The continued stun drain should be everyone's clue that there's continued focus required to maintain the skill.

What about a continued focus required to maintain specific, mostly protective, non-mundane, non-psionic abilities which appear in your stat list? If consistency is the goal, let's have those channeled abilities drain the appropriate stat at a steady level as well.

No more beefing up all your buddies, either. It requires a direct ability with the appropriate skill.

[Nusku]

That's not even funny, man.

I'm not joking. You want to be simultaneously completely aware of your surroundings and capable of focusing on defending your life from someone determined to bash your head in? It would be a pretty rare person that's that good at multitasking. Would there have to be a lot of discussion on the potential tradeoffs that would have to be involved in making this kind of change? Yes, there would. But the reality of the situation is that there are a lot of skills and effects that are not well-balanced. You might enjoy having a character that's able to take advantage of some of the imbalances, but that's really not the same as being able to objectively see where things are a bit wonky, as it were. Some of those imbalances exist for years and years, until someone finally comes along and says, "Oh, hey, that's not right." and gets around to actually tweaking it.

And then the screaming and the crying and the angry, angry postings happen, and all kinds of people get terribly worked up about theoretical scenarios that they've never been involved in and never will get into and the world will come to an end and it's ALL GONE WRONG... and two months later absolutely nothing has changed for the worse and it's business as usual until the next tweak comes along.

[Nusku]

What about a continued focus required to maintain specific, mostly protective, non-mundane, non-psionic abilities which appear in your stat list? If consistency is the goal, let's have those channeled abilities drain the appropriate stat at a steady level as well.

Do said abilities currently drain a stat or do they work off of a different cost mechanic?

[Shiroi Tsuki]

It has never, ever made sense to me why you can't watch a direction while sitting down (if we're going to go with realism, I have never sat in a room where I could -not- position myself to watch out the door), but you can watch while in the middle of combat.  Or scan, or listen, for that matter.

It only makes sense if you're crazy good at being able to keep an eye on your surroundings.  Similarly, I don't see why it would be impossible to hold up a barrier or contact if you're crazy good at those skills, too, to the point where they should be second nature to you.

[a strange shadow]

They drain a specific cost mechanic, and then have no further drain, just as barrier used to work.

Barrier was then modified to have a continual stun drain.

My point isn't to be argumentative. It is a valid observation, I think.

I would hesitate to further modify mundanes until a hard look is taken at the often overpowered abilities non-mundanes possess. Armageddon is not about balance, but should take into consideration player cooperation and mutual fun. When mundane characters feel useless in comparison to a non-mundane who has put in a fraction of the time they have, something is wrong.

[Fathi]

EDIT: Actually if memory serves, you can listen sitting down ... still can't scan/watch I believe.

At the risk of derailing, I have always found it pretty silly that you can't sit down while watching in a direction, as well. Scan is a bit more forgivable, if you picture scan as constantly and continually scanning and checking your surroundings. That sounds a lot more active to me than watching, which I (and I think most of humanity) can do a pretty decent job of while sitting on my ass.

I'm ambivalent about the changes to barrier, mostly.

I don't think that the tactic being referred to as an "exploit" is an exploit, for one. In my mind, "exploit" is a term that means abusing bugs in the code to gain a favourable advantage for your character or using the code in ways that staff members have said is a poor use of coded skills (ala backstab; hide; backstab; hide; backstab). There is a difference between "exploit" and "strategy."

That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with X-D in regards to making it even harder to conceal your identity in the wilderness or in raiding scenarios. Like there wasn't enough discouragement in that area already. Psionics code and the weakness of barrier are the biggest enemies of concealing your sdesc through mundane means, and it just got worse.

I can't help but wonder if we'd see fewer PKs-for-loot and fewer raiders who hang out with invisibility-granting magickers if the mundane methods of concealing your sdesc were less useless.

[Dalmeth]

You might as well make us stop scanning, watching, and listening during combat too

I'm surprised they don't already. You're right, let's be consistent and drop those too.

Allow watching your opponent during combat and remove the delay from, "listen status," as well.   Then I'll be just chipper.

[Tzurahro]

I would hesitate to further modify mundanes until a hard look is taken at the often overpowered abilities non-mundanes possess. Armageddon is not about balance, but should take into consideration player cooperation and mutual fun. When mundane characters feel useless in comparison to a non-mundane who has put in a fraction of the time they have, something is wrong.

I think this is a valid concern.  I will note that these other areas (particularly non-mundane skills or applications) are being evaluated and modified with some consistency and with a logic and thoughtfulness that I find reassuring.

[a strange shadow]

And then the screaming and the crying and the angry, angry postings happen, and all kinds of people get terribly worked up about theoretical scenarios that they've never been involved in and never will get into and the world will come to an end and it's ALL GONE WRONG... and two months later absolutely nothing has changed for the worse and it's business as usual until the next tweak comes along.

Just to note, I think we've been fairly reasonable, and I haven't seen any screaming or crying. We are (or at least I am) only concerned about a percieved trend that's been ongoing for some time, and opening discourse about the matter, not acting childish as this post implies. Please treat our opinions with mutual respect.

I have stated elsewhere that I have confidence balance is being considered, and am putting in my two cents. Can I do that? Thanks.

[Gimfalisette]

And then the screaming and the crying and the angry, angry postings happen, and all kinds of people get terribly worked up about theoretical scenarios that they've never been involved in and never will get into and the world will come to an end and it's ALL GONE WRONG... and two months later absolutely nothing has changed for the worse and it's business as usual until the next tweak comes along.

This is an unfair characterization of legitimate complaints. When reel went in, we complained that "reel lock" would cause character death; and guess what, it does. When the change/fix to parry went in, we complained that certain character classes would have a much harder time in combat; and from what I've heard, they do. The mere fact that we stop talking about it, or that players continue to play, doesn't mean that a change isn't "for the worse" in the minds of many.

I would hesitate to further modify mundanes until a hard look is taken at the often overpowered abilities non-mundanes possess. Armageddon is not about balance, but should take into consideration player cooperation and mutual fun. When mundane characters feel useless in comparison to a non-mundane who has put in a fraction of the time they have, something is wrong.

I think this is a valid concern.  I will note that these other areas (particularly non-mundane skills or applications) are being evaluated and modified with some consistency and with a logic and thoughtfulness that I find reassuring.

From you, this is reassuring to me. However, it doesn't seem to address the bolded portion above. Mundanes actually need some love, if they are going to be useful and chosen for tasks that non-mundanes are more frequently chosen for now. Balancing and nerfing isn't the same thing as improving.

[a strange shadow]

stuff

To continue the side-derail, with the way listen and scan are represented at the moment, they would make more sense as toggled status, not delay-causing one-shots. If that were the case, I would be okay with them having a chance to "toggle off", based on skill, in the heat of combat.

[Nusku]

They drain a specific cost mechanic, and then have no further drain, just as barrier used to work.

Barrier was then modified to have a continual stun drain.

Barrier has always had a continual stun drain. At the very least, it has been that way since 1993, which is as far back as I can get anyone to remember. I'm impressed, because I don't remember 1993 very well at all, but that's neither here nor there. In fact, a few years ago (three, maybe four) the drain on barrier and contact was so heavy that you couldn't keep them up for very long without passing out, even if you were really good at them. And before that, contact broke when you moved. And before that, barrier was a psionicist-only skill. We can jump into the way-back machine and put it all back to the way it was, or we can keep moving forward and change things for the better like we have been.

The skills you are thinking of have never had any continuous drain. They work off of a completely different mechanic.

Similarly, I don't see why it would be impossible to hold up a barrier or contact if you're crazy good at those skills

It's probably safe to say that a non-psionicist will never be "crazy good" at psionic talents.

[a strange shadow]

I distinctly remember barrier having no steady drain, because I used it often with my third character.

I started playing in, I believe, 2001.

I appreciate the intent of trying to change the game for the better, but I would rather the "balancing act" started with other skills and character classes rather than with things that affect, and in many cases further weaken, mundane characters.

I would rather not have to ask for the return of the 8 karma I gave up just so I can "keep up with the Amoses".

[Gimfalisette]

Looks to me like barrier was changed to continually drain stun in 2005: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,15011.0.html

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Similarly, I don't see why it would be impossible to hold up a barrier or contact if you're crazy good at those skills

It's probably safe to say that a non-psionicist will never be "crazy good" at psionic talents.

Relatively crazy good, then.  Or maybe it should be the other way around - if you're crazy good at combat, why should you not be able to partition your attention just a little to be able to do other things during combat?  

Regardless, my point is that instead of things being impossible to everyone certain things should just be harder to attain.  While still being attainable.  In general, and not just regarding barrier.

[FantasyWriter]

Regardless, my point is that instead of things being impossible to everyone certain things should just be harder to attain.  While still being attainable.  In general, and not just regarding barrier.

This.

[Nyr]

...There will likely be more changes to come to reflect that discussion, because we (like those of you that have posted here) are very much aware of things in the game that can become unbalanced or exploited.  In fact, there were several other things that were discussed that have simply been accepted as "fact" (and rather detrimental to playability) that could possibly be changed as a result (unrelated to barrier).

It's not out of the question that things still won't be altered to take into account suggestions here, because suggestions have been the root of some changes made in the past.  I've seen some staff-side discussion on the game port even today about it.  As best I can tell, the bug-fix has been live since the last maintenance (which was either early yesterday or Monday, I forget).  I understand that people are concerned about feature creeping adversely affecting balance and gameplay between mundane characters and their non-mundane counterparts, and I have duly noted it in the thread that the staff is using and has previously been using to discuss this--but it has only been two days.

As a side note, I checked the 2005 update on the IDB just to be sure, because I remembered something about it.
Stun drains existed, but were not standardized before that.  The update standardized them, thus explaining different experiences for it prior to that.