Alternatives to clan cooks

[Desertman]

Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

I guess that really depends on Byn leaders.

Personally, I have never had a Byn leader who was short on contracts.

Every Byn leader I have ever played got me in trouble with my wife, because of contracts almost every night of the week that seem to always interrupt my RL priorities.

Perhaps this would be a way of usurping those "not so productive icly" leaders.

Actually, if I was a Byn merc and my Sarge wasnt getting us any contracts, Sarge would have an accident.

In fact, I have had a Sergeant who has had an accident because they werent bringing in the coin.

*shrugs*

There are also IC measures that can be taken by leaders who so choose and have the drive that will allot funds for their employees and still uphold the mercenary honor system regardless of "Who's Hiring".

[FantasyWriter]

Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

The reason I don't care for the Byn personally... (I love interacting with them, I love the players, and the IMMs that worked hard to make it what it is, and am not bashing it when I say this) ...is they have always seem such an OOC organization to me.  It's like having two choices when you start a combat PC:

1. Join the Byn, get buff combat skills, free food/water, even a little cash on the side.  Stay in a game year, then either stay in, or leave and start playing your PC.
2. Jump right in and start playing out your PC's story line.


I KNOW this is NOT the case most of the time, that is just how I see it.  I think the Byn should have to gather their food by hunting just like the merchant house hunters have to.  Their training schedule has always seemed a little spammy when compared to all the other coded clans.  I don't believe a PC population should be able to live off of the work of a virtual population.  If their sense of pride is too high for such things they should work harder at getting contracts or starve to death like the rest of us do when we don't have food to eat.

just my opinion,
FW

[Gimfalisette]

The job of a Bynner is not hunting, unless the Byn has a contract to hunt.

The job of a Bynner is to work merc contracts.

So making them hunt would be stupid.

PCs should always spend their time doing whatever their job is, not something else. Players don't make mercs if they want to play hunters, they make hunters. If I want to play a soldier, likewise, I want to play a soldier, not a hunter. Ditto any kind of job.

[FantasyWriter]

But if an indy merchant doesn't make anything, he doesn't eat.
If a hunter decides to eat, he doesn't eat.
If a thief doesn't steal anything he doesn't eat.
If a guard doesn't have anythone to guard, he doesn't eat.

If a bynner doesn't have a contract for two months, he just ask cook stew.

[Gimfalisette]

But if an indy merchant doesn't make anything, he doesn't eat.
If a hunter decides to eat, he doesn't eat.
If a thief doesn't steal anything he doesn't eat.
If a guard doesn't have anythone to guard, he doesn't eat.

If a bynner doesn't have a contract for two months, he just ask cook stew.

An indie merchant and a Bynner are not equivalent, nor are a thief and a Bynner. A Bynner belongs to an organization of hundreds of other mercenaries, and has some recognized status and organizational protection inside ALL cities on Zalanthas. Even if that one Bynner's unit is not currently pulling down contracts because their Sergeant is an incompetent asswipe, you can bet your bippy that the 70 other units are, and they're covering what's needed.

Widen your mind about the virtual world. It's far bigger than you are thinking.

[Ampere]

Remove hunger.  Oh god.  Please.

I had to eat about seven bowls of stew to reach 'full' from 'a little hungry'.

Waddled about with a distended stomach.

Reminded me of the scene with that fat man in 'The Meaning of Life'.

That's alotta stew.

[FantasyWriter]

Widen your mind about the virtual world. It's far bigger than you are thinking.

My original argument stated that I do understand this that the Byn has many virtual groups.
My original argument stated that:

I don't believe a PC population should be able to live off of the work of a virtual population.  If their sense of pride is too high for such things they should work harder at getting contracts or starve to death like the rest of us do when we don't have food to eat.

As Desert man said, if they had to provide for themselves, you would end up with better sergeants, that made sure his runners had more to do besides spar and clean the toilets every day.  The might even get to RP with the rest of the PC population and let the virtual runners clean the john.

[Gimfalisette]

As Desert man said, if they had to provide for themselves, you would end up with better sergeants, that made sure his runners had more to do besides spar and clean the toilets every day.  The might even get to RP with the rest of the PC population and let the virtual runners clean the john.

You just don't understand the function of the Byn in the gameworld, then. Forcing the Byn to hunt its own meat would be a deterrent to them doing the job they're supposed to be doing, as I said previously. A good, creative Sergeant -will- make sure that minions have more to do than spar and RP chores. I know this firsthand, trust me. The solution is not hunting.

[Desertman]

You just don't understand the function of the Byn in the gameworld, then. Forcing the Byn to hunt its own meat would be a deterrent to them doing the job they're supposed to be doing, as I said previously. A good, creative Sergeant -will- make sure that minions have more to do than spar and RP chores. I know this firsthand, trust me. The solution is not hunting.

Gimf wins.

There shouldnt be cooks for Bynners.

They should have to buy their food from the money they get from contracts.

If a Sergeant is making his men and himself so little money that they cant afford to eat, its time for him to have an accident.

With every Byn leader I have ever played, I found I got tired of doing contracts.

I remember sitting around saying..."Shit, I wish I had one night this week where we werent working so I could actually train my men."

[Yam]

If I had to get food in addition to all the other junk as a clan leader, I would probably never take the role.

[Barzalene]

It really depends on the clan.
I don't think it makes sense for Borsail to send their troops out hunting (for example.)

[FantasyWriter]

If I had to get food in addition to all the other junk as a clan leader, I would probably never take the role.

Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

[Delstro]

If I had to get food in addition to all the other junk as a clan leader, I would probably never take the role.

Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

No thank you. If you make roles more and more complicated, then they will be less and less fun. K.I.S.S.

[FantasyWriter]

As Desert man said, if they had to provide for themselves, you would end up with better sergeants, that made sure his runners had more to do besides spar and clean the toilets every day.  The might even get to RP with the rest of the PC population and let the virtual runners clean the john.

You just don't understand the function of the Byn in the gameworld, then. Forcing the Byn to hunt its own meat would be a deterrent to them doing the job they're supposed to be doing, as I said previously. A good, creative Sergeant -will- make sure that minions have more to do than spar and RP chores. I know this firsthand, trust me. The solution is not hunting.

I agree with you. That is why hunting is not anywhere where in my statement.  
A good sergeant should be pulling in enough at least contracts to at least provide his troops with enough bread to stay alive. (providing for themselves)
If you are a trooper who's sergeant is not keeping you fed, off him and take his place so you can do a better job.
Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayal.  not  Boot camp.  Free food.  Adventure.

[staggerlee]

It's hard enough to recruit people into clans as is.  The perks are basically protection, limited prestige, free food and possibly somewhere to sleep or a low wage.  Removing access to food from clans is going to make recruitment even harder and penalize players with low play times and off peakers.

Furthermore, what happens when clan membership drops.  I'd hate to be a militia sergeant with no pc members, and have to tell potential recruits: "Well, we'll take you on and train you - no pay as a recruit, and we can't feed you, but once we start getting busy and get some more bodies in here we'll hopefully be able to make some coin and feed you."

The current system is hard enough on off peakers and those of us with limited play time. And I don't know if you've looked at the pay scales lately, but people in clans are a very, very long way from rich.

It also sounds like it would lead to a prioritizing of tasks that make ic money.  Tor needs to buy food? Suddenly they're out hunting and mining sid when they used to be lecturing on tactics.  The Byn needs food? Oops, no more drinking in the bar, no cleaning the latrine, let's run more missions that get us coin or food objects. 

I don't like it.  I think that virtually supplied food is a very important aspect of coded clans, it's part of what gives them the leisure to rp the roles they're supposed to be rping, and one of the few perks.

[Gimfalisette]

Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

Ya need t' lead on ARM some, son, b'fore ya go 'bout givin' those of us who've -done- the job advices 'n it.

[FantasyWriter]

What is so hard about PCs keeping a food bin full.  All the coded clans I have ever been in, the PCs somehow provided food for the PCs, rather it was hunting, buying or stealing.

I have not once wished that the food bins magickally fill up.  I would be let down if they did.

The Byn offer a service. (sorry I keep using them. They are the only clan that I KNOW how their cook works.  It is nothing AT ALL against the Byn)
That service is muscle.  It takes food to make muscle.
From the view I am seeing it from, it would be the same as Kadius having gems load up automatically, or Salarr skins.
If some clans that make money from selling their services can afford to buy food, why can't others?

The militias, as far as I know don't have any income other than extortion and bribes, I can see how they would have free food (it's how our militaries work, after all), but people that "works" for a living has to go to the grocery store and buy food.

Appoint someone you trust to quartermaster or a similar position whose job is to make sure that everyone has what they need in order to do their jobs. 
A good leader should know to delegate responsibility before it gets to the point that he is not able to do his job: seeing to everything being done, rather it is by others or themselves.

Ya need t' lead on ARM some, son, b'fore ya go 'bout givin' those of us who've -done- the job advices 'n it.

I have, sweetheart (it happened to be a clan that had to hunt for their food).  I have also played quartermaster for a house that had to work for their food while others were given it.

[Gimfalisette]

I have, sweetheart (it happened to be a clan that had to hunt for their food).  I have also played quartermaster for a house that had to work for their food while others were given it.

Then you didn't get my point that you're being pretty presumptuous about your idea that the rest of us don't know how to run clans. BTDT. A lot. Having to provide basic necessities for recruits/soldiers/hunters is a huge freaking pain in the ass. And you're vastly overestimating the supply of decent minions, if your blithe pronunciations are any gauge.

[FantasyWriter]

I have, sweetheart (it happened to be a clan that had to hunt for their food).  I have also played quartermaster for a house that had to work for their food while others were given it.

Then you didn't get my point that you're being pretty presumptuous about your idea that the rest of us don't know how to run clans. BTDT. A lot. Having to provide basic necessities for recruits/soldiers/hunters is a huge freaking pain in the ass. And you're vastly overestimating the supply of decent minions, if your blithe pronunciations are any gauge.

If i said anything that sounded at all like some one else didn't know what they were doing, it wasn't meant like that.
The question is how do we feel about clan cooks.  I feel that if some can do with out them, then it is OOC unfair for others to be given food for free.

The only piece of 'advice' I offered anyone was solicited in the post before it, and I gave an example of something that worked very well in the clan which my responsibility WAS providing food and supplies for the clan.

[Haze]

Can you imagine if Byn PC's suddenly had to start making "supply" runs or actually had to start taking cuts in contract pay for the purpose of buying up supplies.

Being a huge fan of the Byn, its my favorite clan that I have the most experience in, from top to bottom, I have to say I would love it.

My impression of the Byn is that they're a bit short on contracts as it is, and that their mecernary philosophy pride compels them to earn their livings by the sword, not by grebbing, hunting and crafting.

I've skipped most of this thread, 'cause I don't understand why clan cooks are under review.  But for whatever it's worth, clan cooks are one of the two most important additions to the game (the other being crafting, with karma a distant third).  Clan cooks revolutionized the way the game is played.

Before clan cooks were implemented, clans sustained themselves with "supply runs."  Basically, a clan leader would organize hunts (or do all the hunting themselves) in order to keep the pantries stocked.  Long story short, clans used to have to hunt to sustain themselves, but since the invention of the clan cooks, they've been able to focus on being whatever their clan was meant to be.

Part of me liked the old system - it definitely made things exciting.  There were no, "no leaving the gates" rules because that effectively enforced starvation, and people had much shorter lifespans all around.  Hunting accidents were common, and important people regularly left the safety of the cities to fend for their own survival...

But, overall, I think the new system is better.  Yeah, it lacks a certain evolved hack 'n slash thrill that Armageddon used to have in spades, but the new system allows players to fulfill their character roles much more.

[Fathi]

If you removed clan cooks for large mostly-VNPC-staffed organisations, you would have to drastically alter other aspects of the game.

I wouldn't support removing clan cooks unless all or at least some of the following occurred:

1. Animal spawning was altered so that more game (and more easily hunted game) spawned in several areas of the map and was not dependent on reboots.
2. The cooking skill was given a much higher success-to-fail ratio.
3. Hunger was altered so that eating a massive steak from a massive animal actually kept you fed for the better part of a day.
4. Food prices of raw food items were significantly lowered in both city-states.
5. Clan wages were increased so that off-peak/non-combat characters still had a means by which to acquire food.

When I played a hunter who ended up strong enough to reliably hunt just about anything in the southlands, there were still days where I'd go out with my hunting group and there wouldn't be a single animal around because the game had been cleared out and ginka hadn't rebooted for a week. Say what you will about competition for resources being a part of Zalanthan life, if every clan in Allanak was forced to resort to hunting or buying food, there simply would not be enough game in the region to support even a handful of clans.

Edited for grammar.

[a strange shadow]

6. Skinning was altered to give far more meat per kill. A duskhorn should feed a small group for a week.

[Desertman]

When I played a hunter who ended up strong enough to reliably hunt just about anything in the southlands, there were still days where I'd go out with my hunting group and there wouldn't be a single animal around because the game had been cleared out and ginka hadn't rebooted for a week. Say what you will about competition for resources being a part of Zalanthan life, if every clan in Allanak was forced to resort to hunting or buying food, there simply would not be enough game in the region to support even a handful of clans.

Game doesnt respawn based on Ginka rebooting.

[Desertman]

6. Skinning was altered to give far more meat per kill. A duskhorn should feed a small group for a week.

I wouldnt want to see one kill feeding an entire group for a week.

I would like to see larger game yielding more food products in general though.

The way it stands now, I have to kill 3 or 4 deer-sized creatures and skin them perfectly just to get one meal for the day.

I think if we somewhat increased the yield of food from creatures, maybe double or triple what it is now? While also decreasing the overall cost of certain staple foods (flour ect...) in grocery stores, it wouldnt be too hard to switch many clans and groups from Magick Cooks to realistic supply gathering.

(By supply gathering I mean hunting for some clans, but for clans like the Byn I mean going on contracts, then using that coin to go "Gather Supplies" at  the local grocery store.)

For some clans like the Slaving Houses who really dont "Do" anything, except virtually for the most part, having IG cooks is really the only way to go.

Slavers arent supposed to be out hunting, they are supposed to be slaving.

I wouldnt be opposed to making all slaving Houses virtual operations myself though.

I have never seen a group of PC slavers actually go do any IG slaving, so whats the point?

All the ones I have ever seen just end up being like a secondary militia for the city.

Also, militia pc's obviously would still need "cooks" since they are a viable and interesting clan to have in game, but cant hunt or the like for themselves. Thats easily accomplished through the very real concept of taxes paying for their meager meals.

[nyrk]

It seems that the common consensus is that the primary source of food is hunting.  Even for City PC's and Clans.
If you tried to feed Allanak, or even the prominent clans in Allanak primarily through hunting, there is no way that the surrounding
area could support it.  Particularly if it as a sparse, desert environment.

Really the city clans should be buying food,  From the butcher, or the baker, not going out hunting when they are hungry.

Now tribals, yeah they should be supporting themselves with hunting, but not major clans of the city.