A discussion of stats.

[Yam]

Stop patronizing Jingo. I know it's very fun to talk down to people that complain about statistics mechanics as if they're playing a hack and slash, but it is very rude.


The way stats factor into combat right now, I would simply suicide a warrior with a bad roll. Unless I was aiming at playing someone with the offensive and defensive capabilities of a cripple.

I like random stats. It's fun. But when warriors that have been alive and fighting for a few IC years or more are getting their asses kicked by newbie Bynners with ai/good/eg/eg, something's wrong.

[Jingo]

Keep in mind that this game is an incredible time-sink. Explain to me why I should play a warrior for a hundread hours (4 days) and then finally be able to down a certain agressive beastie, when my last warrior (and apparantly everyone else in my clan) could do it out of the box?

Because you find them to be interesting people with an interesting story to tell?

Beating up a big animal doesn't make your pc a valuable pc in anyway except at a tool.

I try my best to make my pc's interesting, but that is wholly another aspect of the game and not what I'm discussing right now.

I think I'll be playing a few flavor/political roles for my next few characters. Eventually though, I'm going to apping yet another wilderness character and that character is going to at the mercy of a few radom rolls again. And I really really don't want to go through 4 days (one hundread hours) of hunting bunny-sized creatures before challenging the beasties when somebody else doesn't have to.

Jingo, try to think of it this way:

If they started out better skilled codewise, but died before you did, then they weren't better than you. Coded skills are useless if you don't have the brains to back them up. Longevity IS your reward. That IS the prize, for playing with a little intelligence and common sense. And of course luck always has something to do with it, because even the smartest, safest-playing player will lose their character eventually.

I actually cracked a grin at this and it is true. Though it does not solve the problem, as I see it.

[X-D]

I Love random stats, I love that not even I can make a cookie cutter PC, I still have never, will never stat order. Even with stat ordering there is still randomness so it is fine. Sure, now almost all warriors that are not elves are strong, pretty fast and healthy and dumb as rocks, but Meh, I guess that is the way people think they should be.

I've gotten my fair share of AI rolls and I've gotten my fair share of poor rolls. Interesting thing about that is, it makes no difference on how long my PC lives. Some of my best known had the worst stats. I played a dwarf ranger named Khalad way back during the rebellion who had poor wis, above ave agility and good strength. Yet somehow he still managed to make it through the byn, work his way up to LT in Tor, survive the luirs rebellion hrpt and much more. And he was considered one of the better fighters of his time. Hell, my Salarri officer Burr, who was a ranger with only slightly above ave stats and a dwarf managed to beat Shatuka in the archery in luirsfest (loved Shatuka BTW, best breed ever and best rivalry ever).

I do not understand the desire people have to make everybody "average", it is unrealistic. Leave the stats system the way it is, it is near perfect cept we need to split agi and dex up. And change the way you write up your PCs.

That is all.

[Barzalene]

Stop patronizing Jingo. I know it's very fun to talk down to people that complain about statistics mechanics as if they're playing a hack and slash, but it is very rude.


The way stats factor into combat right now, I would simply suicide a warrior with a bad roll. Unless I was aiming at playing someone with the offensive and defensive capabilities of a cripple.

I like random stats. It's fun. But when warriors that have been alive and fighting for a few IC years or more are getting their asses kicked by newbie Bynners with ai/good/eg/eg, something's wrong.

I don't think asking the exact question asked is patronizing. And I certainly didn't phrase my answer to be rude. Unless you're referring to someone else, in which case they can examine their own conscience.

I'm curious about why you think he was ridiculed. I didn't see that at all.

[Clearsighted]

I Love random stats, I love that not even I can make a cookie cutter PC, I still have never, will never stat order. Even with stat ordering there is still randomness so it is fine. Sure, now almost all warriors that are not elves are strong, pretty fast and healthy and dumb as rocks, but Meh, I guess that is the way people think they should be.

I've gotten my fair share of AI rolls and I've gotten my fair share of poor rolls. Interesting thing about that is, it makes no difference on how long my PC lives. Some of my best known had the worst stats. I played a dwarf ranger named Khalad way back during the rebellion who had poor wis, above ave agility and good strength. Yet somehow he still managed to make it through the byn, work his way up to LT in Tor, survive the luirs rebellion hrpt and much more. And he was considered one of the better fighters of his time. Hell, my Salarri officer Burr, who was a ranger with only slightly above ave stats and a dwarf managed to beat Shatuka in the archery in luirsfest (loved Shatuka BTW, best breed ever and best rivalry ever).

I do not understand the desire people have to make everybody "average", it is unrealistic. Leave the stats system the way it is, it is near perfect cept we need to split agi and dex up. And change the way you write up your PCs.

That is all.

This is good advice. I've recently discovered that you can't really go about making a character in Armageddon, the same way you would in another game or setting where you had more control over things.

What happens is that if you build up a PC in your mind as to what you consider their supposed strengths, (I.E, this guy is gonna have at least VG strength!), then when you roll beneath that, and then even on a reroll, roll beneath that, you are going to feel disappointed.

I actually think for most people, it's not even the coded reasons that matter. It's whether they know it or not, the roleplaying aspect, and the fact they would feel like an imposter or twink, if they were to keep playing the character in the way they initiallyl envisioned. So it basically causes them to attempt to re-evaluate and find a new way to fit the character into the world, and for many, it merely causes a great feeling of 'meh'.

Perhaps people should deliberately envision 'average-ish' characters, and then if you get lucky on their stats, you can revamp them in an more 'impressive' direction.  Perhaps the rest should be saved for special apps, if for instance, having that VG strength or better than poor endurance, would be a gamebreaker for the immersion in that mindset.

I still know that despite getting burned by it, and having done the below average wisdom thing for dwarves to, I would still rather it be random, and have the vague chance of something great, then be entirely under my control.

[Nyr]

Stat prioritization allows you to choose in what order you wish your stats to be prioritized when they are rolled.  It's not completely random or out of player control.  Players do not have direct control over what exact stats they get, but they do have a pretty close handle on what they consider important.  I don't think that it is realistic to expect that every character should have the opportunity to a character with supremely awesome stats.  If that were the case, awesome stats could easily become commonplace.

It's good to have discussion about this, but I think that major suggested changes to character creation should really be brought up in the Reborn forum.

[Janna]

I've never actually seen a major issue with stats 'crippling' a character. I've certainly seen it take longer to get to a capable level, however. Just as an example, a still too recent char of mine to get into, -should- have had absolutely amazing stats given her BG but the stat roll that came around was below average, average, average, good. She lived near 100 days playtime and could usually spar 3 people at once without getting touched more then five times, absolutely undress a scrab/beetle/Gith and so on.

As was already mentioned, longevity is the reward. Some fresh out of the box warrior may have better stock stats then your 20 day warrior and hit you harder or faster, but your shield, disarm, kick etc.. is were the code balances that out I think. Disarm the noob.

Now, if some fresh PC can suddenly bypasses my shield, avoids my disarm and ducks my kick within a couple days playtime, then fix the code. Because -that- would be bullshit. The actual stats don't mean a thing imo. There are always smarter/faster/stronger people IRL but experience you can't be born with.

[Yam]

I've never actually seen a major issue with stats 'crippling' a character. I've certainly seen it take longer to get to a capable level, however. Just as an example, a still too recent char of mine to get into, -should- have had absolutely amazing stats given her BG but the stat roll that came around was below average, average, average, good. She lived near 100 days playtime and could usually spar 3 people at once without getting touched more then five times, absolutely undress a scrab/beetle/Gith and so on.

As was already mentioned, longevity is the reward. Some fresh out of the box warrior may have better stock stats then your 20 day warrior and hit you harder or faster, but your shield, disarm, kick etc.. is were the code balances that out I think. Disarm the noob.

Now, if some fresh PC can suddenly bypasses my shield, avoids my disarm and ducks my kick within a couple days playtime, then fix the code. Because -that- would be bullshit. The actual stats don't mean a thing imo. There are always smarter/faster/stronger people IRL but experience you can't be born with.

That's not really a bad stat roll though.

Poor/below average/good/average is a bad stat roll. That's the type that makes any sort of combat crippling.

[a strange shadow]

I've never had an issue with stats not matching up with my background, because I've never included physical prowess or mental aptitude in my backgrounds. That's something that can be fleshed out once the stats are rolled.

That said, I dislike how much stats seem to matter to the mundane character, especially strength.

[Ammut]

I think stats are important to a certain extent; especially wisdom.  With below average wisdom and a 10 day warrior, I was still unable to use some of my skills properly.  I would critically fail once out of every four attempts on average when sparring with a character who obviously had great stats -- this was very disheartening.

I find myself writing out great character concepts I can flesh out, with goals, strange habits and quirks... but if they end up with low wisdom I just know I won't enjoy playing them.  They just can't compete with the characters who have uber stats.  In this case I usually end up storing or suiciding like a jerk.

[Clearsighted]

I think stats are important to a certain extent; especially wisdom.  With below average wisdom and a 10 day warrior, I was still unable to use some of my skills properly.  I would critically fail once out of every four attempts on average when sparring with a character who obviously had great stats -- this was very disheartening.

I find myself writing out great character concepts I can flesh out, with goals, strange habits and quirks... but if they end up with low wisdom I just know I won't enjoy playing them.  They just can't compete with the characters who have uber stats.  In this case I usually end up storing or suiciding like a jerk.

Storing or even quit dying a character sorta makes me feel like a jerk too. It probably shouldn't since its just a game, not not every PC is going to be instantly clicked with. Some are even deliberately exploratory or throw-awayish. But it does.

That said. A low wisdom has never bothered me. Since it's just a matter of time to overcome it.  I did a below average dwarf for a long time, and often saw people train much faster than me. But I stuck it out.

[NoteworthyFellow]

One time I had an elf that rolled poor strength (hahahahaha), absolutely incredible agility (HAHAHAHAHA), and below average wisdom and endurance.

In short, nothing could touch him, but damned if he could do more than moderately annoy his opponent with a spear.  I may have laughed my ass off when I got those stats on a reroll.

[Salt Merchant]

One time I had an elf that rolled poor strength (hahahahaha), absolutely incredible agility (HAHAHAHAHA), and below average wisdom and endurance.

In short, nothing could touch him, but damned if he could do more than moderately annoy his opponent with a spear.  I may have laughed my ass off when I got those stats on a reroll.

Perfect sparring partner.  He could have made a fortune.

[NoteworthyFellow]

One time I had an elf that rolled poor strength (hahahahaha), absolutely incredible agility (HAHAHAHAHA), and below average wisdom and endurance.

In short, nothing could touch him, but damned if he could do more than moderately annoy his opponent with a spear.  I may have laughed my ass off when I got those stats on a reroll.

Perfect sparring partner.  He could have made a fortune.

Oh, the missed opportunities!

...I suppose I should add something to the topic.

I'll admit to a certain addiction to stat rolling.  I love creating new characters, both for the fresh start they provide, and because coming into the game and seeing my stats has a certain thrill to it.  Maybe I'm predisposed to like gambling, I don't know.  But, I'll also admit to an equal amount of frustration with stat rolling, because even with stat ordering, there are plenty of times when all of my stats have been lackluster, and that's a generous way of putting it.  Almost all of those times have been when it's been a sponsored character of some kind, or at least when I've put a lot of thought into the character rather than making a throwaway (whose stats always rock).

But despite those frustrations, I'm willing to keep stat rolling (with stat ordering) around, just because the only thing that would suck more than a frustratingly low stat roll is if everyone's stats were optimal for their tasks.  I think we'd see a lot less improvisation as far as character concepts went, for one thing, and it just plain wouldn't be realistic.  This is one thing I can stomach for the sake of realism.

[Desertman]

This isnt a major problem.

If you get bad stats.

Suicide.

That simple.

No harm, no foul.

Noone ever knew you, you died within 1 hour of play, and the storyline that is Zalanthas was not affected by the fact you didnt want to play a crappy PC.

I play this game to have fun.

When I get a bad stat I have that constant voice in my head saying..."If only that stat wasnt slowing me down"...which hampers my fun.

I dont play this game to have hampered fun.

So to all of those people who shout..."I hate having to deal with bad stats."

You dont have to deal with bad stats. Thats why they invented the scrab.

[Thunkkin]

No harm, no foul.

Really?  I would assume that the imms wouldn't be too tickled by this.  Is that not the case?

[Nyr]

Suiciding characters is not recommended.  If your character has stats that you absolutely do not want to deal with, at least send in a storage request.
It's usually fairly obvious to staff when someone "suicides."
Derail:  There is no official rule against suiciding characters, but doing so can reflect poorly on you.

[Desertman]

Derail:  There is no official rule against suiciding characters, but doing so can reflect poorly on you.

Why?

That is a serious question. If there is no rule against it, why is it considered "bad" if I walk myself naked into the Silt Sea? Who cares? And if they do care...Why do they care?

I dont like the concept of getting a "Bad Reputation" for doing something that isnt even against the rules. I dont like the "OOC Grapevine" of whats "Right" and "Wrong" dictating my account notes and staff views. Especially when what I am doing is something that isnt even documented to be "Against the Rules".

I am getting a bad reputation as a player for committing an act that isnt even against the rules.

I know that the OOC "Mindset" or..."The Clique"...Have this elitist viewpoint that if you have bad stats you should play your PC anyways because its your responsibility to do so. *Pfffttt*

I dont kill people with my uber magicks, I dont kill people endlessly for no reason with my special app PC's of political power, I dont even kill PC's with my mundane raiders.

Yet I will get a bet rep for walking my 15 minute old PC naked into the Silt Sea for getting poor wisdom?

Ouch.

I am not trying to be a pain in the butt, as usual, I am seriously worried about this. I have walked quiet a few "Tards" (Stat deficient PC's) into the Silt Sea in the first 10 minutes of play.

If I opt to send in a "Store Request" instead of walking into the Silt Sea, will I still be looked at as a "Naughty Man" for not playing my pc with bad stats? Or is that considered OK, to store instead of suicide over bad stats?

[Janna]

As far as I know, DM, storing is considered 'fine' to do. The only reason people continue (and likely will continue) to suicide 'accidentally' or otherwise would be because one can kill one character, app another and have it approved and be back in game three days before the storage request even gets looked at. It's B.S to expect a faster reply on storage given that only select ranks or higher of staff can do them and with their work-load, three to five days is pretty damn fast IMO. But, all the same, the easier way to go is the one usually taken.

Maybe story-tellers can be given the ability to grant storages as well?

[Mood]

Maybe people should be allowed to store themselves.

[FantasyWriter]

I totally agree with DesertMan on this one. If you are not involved with any plots, or close to any charecter, what's the big deal.  People die EVERY day in Zalanthas, it is a fact of life.

And to Nyr: What is the difference between storage and suiciding other that it adds story and RP possibilities to the people who find your corpse, saves staff time, and saves us the time of waiting on the staff.  Not only is it not a rule, but it doesn't even make good since.  You guys have a heavy enough work load without us asking you to do something that we can do for ourselves.

I don't think it is bad role play if you haven't even reached the point with interacting with your first PC.

[Gimfalisette]

I don't think it is bad role play if you haven't even reached the point with interacting with your first PC.

So we're all OK with the playerbase at large just suiciding or storing their characters, until they get a stat roll they like, thereby completely bypassing the coded stat-roll system and giving themselves an advantage over players who are unaware of this strategy or have some ethical qualms about employing it?

Awesome.

[Dakurus]

I'd be perfectly fine with someone suiciding their character if they had made sure the background was full of reasons why, and documented their suicide attempts or thoughts. I'd almost be disappointed if they didn't try.

I suspect however that's not the case in the example provided.

Yes, we all play the game because we enjoy it. Usually it's a number of specific aspects we enjoy more, but the rest we're willing to shoulder and deal with, because it's worth it. When one chooses to ignore one of the shouldered responsibilities because of their personal ideals of fun, they do so at their own peril.

This could be suiciding your character for stats.
This could be ignoring vnpcs while stealing, killing, exploring, etc.
This could be for ignoring your environment.
This could be for not role-playing.
This could be for abuse.
This could be for not following the rules, sadly, sometimes the intent, if not the letter.
Use your imagination...
I don't think the staff are gestapo, nor are the things we ask for that much of a burden.
We don't force players to play roles they don't like, but we do ask players to share the burden of responsiblity, no matter how clunky and imperfect.
This shows respect for the game, the staff, and your fellow players.

[Nyr]

I said "can," not "will," and not specifically about stat suicides--just character suicides in general.
If a player has the appearance of suiciding multiple characters, it can create issues if said player wishes to apply for a sponsored role, for obvious reasons.
That's it.  Nothing more, nothing less.
This is also why it is important to send an e-mail to your clan staff (or unclanned staff) when your character kicks the bucket.
If you find your character unplayable, please contact your clan staff/or submit a storage request.
With a storage request, we know why you stored, and we'll be able to research problems--such as disproportionately sucky stats that are unplayable, in this case.

Dakurus summed up a lot of the other stuff I was going to say so I'm just leaving it at that.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't like the idea of suiciding for stats, pure and simple ... I'd much rather somebody take the time to store, or just try playing the damned character.

This isn't to say that I think it should put a bad note on your account, persay, but I think that trying to play with your ailments is more fun.

What I'd like to see is prioritization work like this.
1st stat: good +
2nd stat: Average +
3rd stat: Below Average +
4th stat: Poor +

Then you will always have a good first stat, provided you use the priority system, and as long as you plan your character as a normal guy, you'll be able to play him. You still can't get insane stats by default, and nobody can even use the excuse of poor stats as a reason to suicide anymore. Meanwhole, those who dislike a focus on stats can't say that this makes it unfair.