The Current Languishing of Tuluki Nobility

[Gimfalisette]

All of these incongruities take the feet out from under the system and are a large part of the reason why I don't think it works as envisioned.

I very much disagree. Rather, it's a great RP opportunity for interaction between nobles and their employees, and soldiers and templars. Rife with possibilities for political struggle in and of itself. Most of the noble houses don't even have forces that would be suitable for doing enforcement, anyways. (Winrothol and Lyksae being the exceptions, NONE of the other houses has anything more than scout/hunting forces for the purpose of supplying their own needs. And some of them don't even have that.) Coded backup is icing on the cake and never necessary for what a noble wants/needs to do.

[Malken]

So now that something is being done about new Chosens, but many of us actually moved away from Tuluk recently, I hope it's not going to be another case of too many Chosens and not enough minions, urgh!

Alright, guys, pack your suitcases, we're heading back to Tuluk!

[Gimfalisette]

Fighting over the supply of good minions is a handy source of conflict.

MOAR CONFLICT

Also, Tuluk has had plenty of people in it lately, even sans Malken

[Jherlen]

All of these incongruities take the feet out from under the system and are a large part of the reason why I don't think it works as envisioned.

I very much disagree. Rather, it's a great RP opportunity for interaction between nobles and their employees, and soldiers and templars. Rife with possibilities for political struggle in and of itself. Most of the noble houses don't even have forces that would be suitable for doing enforcement, anyways. (Winrothol and Lyksae being the exceptions, NONE of the other houses has anything more than scout/hunting forces for the purpose of supplying their own needs. And some of them don't even have that.) Coded backup is icing on the cake and never necessary for what a noble wants/needs to do.

If the Governors are wholly reliant on the templarate for enforcement of their power, then their power ends any time the templarate disagrees with their governing. The system seems intended, and Tlaloc's explanation even seemed to reinforce the idea that the Governors are supposed to be able to govern and do whatever they wish with their qynar. But that's not the case in game. The people capable of doing the actual enforcement are the ones with the true power. If the system is supposed to work like it's being presented/envisioned, the Chosen should be the ones with the authority.

I'm not actually advocating that be done, I'm just saying that seems what should logically be in place from the way this is all being described.

[Gimfalisette]

It's only not the case codedly. Code is weird and not entirely IC. Oh well. Within their qynar, each governor does have the right to do as desired. Sometimes the code just has to be worked around. (I mean, we all know there are 87,000 other issues with the crim code. This is just another one.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A simple solution is to make each section of the city with it's own crim code, and then to grant the governer and their soldiers with the Clan encharged with enforcing that code.

Crim Code is not so hard to duplicate. What is a bit harder is going through each room and inputting the new flag that the crim code would look for.

[Jherlen]

It seems like there's either an error in your logic, Gimf, or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying....

You say Chosen do have the authority to make and enforce laws, and this is the case every way but codewise, but then you say that it's good that they are dependent on the Legion for enforcement as this promotes plots and conflict.

If the code was the only issue, wouldn't that mean they aren't supposed to be dependent? Or if they were supposed to be dependent, wouldn't it mean that it isn't in fact the case that they have the ability to enforce?

[Gimfalisette]

My guess ist that there can only be one crim code governing any particular area in the current version of ARM. So that wouldn't really work, as Legion soldiers and templars still need to have coded authority everywhere.

Really, dealing with the ambiguity isn't all that hard. And as I said, most of the houses don't even have the virtual forces to do all their own policing. That is what they -pay- the templarate to do.

You say Chosen do have the authority to make and enforce laws, and this is the case every way but codewise, but then you say that it's good that they are dependent on the Legion for enforcement as this promotes plots and conflict.

What I'm saying is that the code doesn't reflect IC reality. Oh well. Nobles just need to suck it up and use the non-reflection of IC reality as interaction and plot seeds, instead. Lemons into lemonade.

[a strange shadow]

Conflict based on IC factors is good.

Conflict based on OOC factors is just frustrating and leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

We make do with what we have, but it's a legitimate issue that the coded and gameworld reality aren't meshing, because it causes a dependency that should not exist to that level.

[Jherlen]

Ahhh, got it. Well, I think a better way would be to make the code reflect IC reality, because in this case who has the right of the "law" (or rather, the crime code) behind them really does affect the system.

[Gimfalisette]

These same issues exist in Allanak. Though nobles are ICly free to break the laws, OOCly the crim code will codely go against them.

I think y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill on this issue. It's just not that difficult to navigate around.

Also, again from the OOC standpoint, I really don't want to see nobles starting to take it into their heads that they are alternate templars, because they are Governors. Their concerns and their methods should be politics, not enforcement. Some noobles (both north and south) are already bad enough on the whole "I'm a badass and I'm going to have the law punish you" thing.

[Jherlen]

These same issues exist in Allanak. Though nobles are ICly free to break the laws, OOCly the crim code will codely go against them.

I think y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill on this issue. It's just not that difficult to navigate around.

Also, again from the OOC standpoint, I really don't want to see nobles starting to take it into their heads that they are alternate templars, because they are Governors. Their concerns and their methods should be politics, not enforcement. Some noobles (both north and south) are already bad enough on the whole "I'm a badass and I'm going to have the law punish you" thing.

In Allanak and Tuluk both, nobles don't become wanted when they commit crimes. (Their servants do, though. Or maybe it's that nobles become wanted but aren't arrested or harassed by npc soldiers. Either way I know nobles can pull out a club and beat someone if they truly have the inclination.)

Again, it seems like the system is being presented such that the Governors ARE supposed to be templars of their own qynar. If they aren't, and all they supposedly have is the power to make laws in name only, that's not really power and they aren't really governing anything at all.

It's not a good idea to have the IC reality supposedly be one thing but the coded reality be something different. The code should match the system as designed. It doesn't. I don't think the system is going to work until it does.

For the record, I actually don't like the qynar system precisely because I would rather templars be the rulers and lawmakers and enforcers instead of the nobles.

[Gimfalisette]

In Allanak and Tuluk both, nobles don't become wanted when they commit crimes. (Their servants do, though).

Huh. I never tested that. But if enforcement was really wanted, then it'd be pretty simple to make certain ranks of servants be non-crimmable. Since that's the only coded difference between a noble and a servant; rank in their particular clan.

Again, it seems like the system is being presented such that the Governors ARE supposed to be templars of their own qynar. If they aren't, and all they supposedly have is the power to make laws in name only, that's not really power and they aren't really governing anything at all.

Governance is primarily about the money. It's always been about the money. The money from their governed qynar flows through the houses to the templarate now, whereas previously it just went straight to the templarate. THAT is the power of a governor.

Again, I think the focus on coded enforcement, or enforcement at all, is the wrong tack for governors. Completely wrong. The role wasn't intended to be played that way.

[Delstro]

If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My guess ist that there can only be one crim code governing any particular area in the current version of ARM. So that wouldn't really work, as Legion soldiers and templars still need to have coded authority everywhere.

That's right, but only because of what the crim code looks for. If the Governer's crim code is asked to look for a flag instead of a room sector, then suddenly, both the City and Provencial codes work just fine together. Also, there is a system I know of that looks for room numbers. This also works crossways.

And I tend to like the idea of provencial forces and laws, actually. Conflicting laws in the same City State sounds awesome. Kinda like the difference in speed limits between states in the USA. I'd like to see the Templarette as the National Guard, and the Governer's forces as the State Troopers.

[Fathi]

If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.

Or the templars would tell you to piss off and not help you because they don't like you or are involved in other things. Which means that in order to be able to legally enforce the law in a noble's own qynar, they have to kiss the templarate's ass in hopes the templars will come running to help them if they want somebody arrested.

I've always found it kind of befuddling how Tuluk's system is supposedly a triumverate, but in the end, all the power comes back to the templars and whether or not they would feel like cooperating. It seems to me like the nobility's authority is a paper tiger.

[Gimfalisette]

If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.

Why is your noble wasting his or her time outlawing dumbass things, anyways--do you mean to make yourself look stupid and weak to your peers? Why is your noble wasting his/her valuable employees' time on petty enforcement, when you only get 2 personal employees? And why haven't you bribed that templar so she or he is spending the majority of his or her time, and their soldiers' time, patrolling your qynar and enforcing your laws and always on call?

Politics. Politics. POLITICS.

Or the templars would tell you to piss off and not help you because they don't like you or are involved in other things. Which means that in order to be able to legally enforce the law in a noble's own qynar, they have to kiss the templarate's ass in hopes the templars will come running to help them if they want somebody arrested.

I've always found it kind of befuddling how Tuluk's system is supposedly a triumverate, but in the end, all the power comes back to the templars and whether or not they would feel like cooperating. It seems to me like the nobility's authority is a paper tiger.

*sigh*

Man you guys. Just...man. So much negativity about a system without even trying it out.

Let me ask this: Do any of you think the templarate WANTED the qynar system? That it was entirely voluntary that they voted for it in the Triumvirate? The nobility has leverage, plenty of leverage. They are no paper tiger, and even less so now with the qynar system.

[Nyr]

As in many other cases, the IC reality is one thing, and the public IC reality is another.

There's only so much about the qynar and striasiri system that is publicly known, the rest is in IC documentation that all governors have had and know about. 

When I made the decision to assist and help with writing up a lot of the new changes to Tuluk in public documentation (expounding on the uses and goals of the partisan system, the "upheaval" in Tuluki politics, the qynar/striasiri), I also made the decision to only reveal as much as necessary.  There is more than meets the eye.  Those that need to know how it works can inquire in-character about it. 

All of the rest of this talk is simply conjecture.  It has no bearing on what actually has gone on in game or what will go on in game.

[Delstro]

That was just an example, Gimf. Maybe a noble that was having a love affair with a commoner and told the commoner to always wear pink shoes. Maybe I outlawed half-giants from my Qynar since a gang of them were ravaging my streets at night. I can do nothing about it if a PC templar/soldier isn't around. If I am an offpeak Noble, (which i would be), then I have no power over my Qynar.

[Fathi]

If you told me that my noble can outlaw pink shoes in his qynar, but I codedly can't do anything about it. It is a moot point. I can't do it. Sure I can send my goons around to look for pink shoes, have them way me, then I way the templars, and then they find the PC to incriminate them, but that is a self defeating task right there. They'll already be out of my Qynar before I find a PC templar.

Why is your noble wasting his or her time outlawing dumbass things, anyways--do you mean to make yourself look stupid and weak to your peers? Why is your noble wasting his/her valuable employees' time on petty enforcement, when you only get 2 personal employees? And why haven't you bribed that templar so she or he is spending the majority of his or her time, and their soldiers' time, patrolling your qynar and enforcing your laws and always on call?

Politics. Politics. POLITICS.

Or the templars would tell you to piss off and not help you because they don't like you or are involved in other things. Which means that in order to be able to legally enforce the law in a noble's own qynar, they have to kiss the templarate's ass in hopes the templars will come running to help them if they want somebody arrested.

I've always found it kind of befuddling how Tuluk's system is supposedly a triumverate, but in the end, all the power comes back to the templars and whether or not they would feel like cooperating. It seems to me like the nobility's authority is a paper tiger.

*sigh*

Man you guys. Just...man. So much negativity about a system without even trying it out.

Let me ask this: Do any of you think the templarate WANTED the qynar system? That it was entirely voluntary that they voted for it in the Triumvirate? The nobility has leverage, plenty of leverage. They are no paper tiger, and even less so now with the qynar system.

I never said I wasn't willing to give it a chance; I was just pointing out that it seems to me that, in the end, all the power in Tuluk comes back to the templars.

So let's say my hypothetical noble bribes a Lirathan who, for whatever reasons, valid or stupid, has decided she hates my noble's House. I have one of my bards compose a very flattering number about some of her recent exploits, give her a few assorted gifts, and lend her mucho public support.

The templar in question can, in reality, just disregard all my character's efforts and completely ignore my noble based on her individual prejudices, can she not? There are no laws about this.

Realistically, I could go find another Lirathan to favour, but that's not how it is. You're stuck with what the PC templars will or will not do for you, because they are PCs.

I could try to rally other nobles to my cause, but if the Lirathan in question treats them just fine, why would they side with a noble that a templar is choosing to ignore, at the risk of incurring that templar's wrath or at least losing their favour?

I could try to find a Jihaen and attempt the same thing, but there's no real competition between the templarate Orders. Does a Jihaen have anything to gain, except pissing off the Lirathan, by aiding my noble's cause?

Is this somehow not the case? It seems to me that any power your noble may or may not have in Tuluk absolutely hinges on what the templarate is willing to do for you.

[Gimfalisette]

Is this somehow not the case? It seems to me that any power your noble may or may not have in Tuluk absolutely hinges on what the templarate is willing to do for you.

It is not the case. Nobles and templars are always in a symbiotic relationship. PCs who ignore reality suffer; I've seen it happen over and over, on both sides of the equation.

During the crisis in Tuluk that resulted in the qynar system, my noble had (to be mild about it) very poor relations with the PC Lirathans (nearly got executed!), and wasn't so cozy with the Jihaens either.

And yet, my noble got plenty of stuff done. Both despite that opposition, and because of it.

That was just an example, Gimf. Maybe a noble that was having a love affair with a commoner and told the commoner to always wear pink shoes. Maybe I outlawed half-giants from my Qynar since a gang of them were ravaging my streets at night. I can do nothing about it if a PC templar/soldier isn't around. If I am an offpeak Noble, (which i would be), then I have no power over my Qynar.

If you think you have no power, you're undoubtedly right--you are powerless.

[Delstro]

If that is the case, I've lost interest. If you tell me OOCly I can make laws, but I need other willing PCs for it to work, in an Offpeak time that could be 1 other Pc soldier. That 1 PC soldier won't want to walk around the Warrans looking for half-giants. I wouldn't. My pc would be killed for not obeying and I'd leave the area.

[Jherlen]

Let's say I'm governor of Freil's and I hate Kadius. I decide to make a law that says all Kadian goods shipments brought into my qynar will be charged a 100 sid tariff. Well, great. Where do I get people to be the border patrol? My own guards? My PC guards can't do jack squat to Kadians hauling bags of stuff in, because of the crime code. If the imms are nice, and my House is big enough, maybe I have enough NPC guards to set up checkpoints at all my qynar entrances. But many Houses don't employ that kind of manpower. So how do I enforce my own law?

... the Legion.

... which is free to stop enforcing my law whenever it becomes convenient for them to do so.

Thus my authority as a governor is wholly dependent on the templarate, or on staff assistance, as it currently stands.

[Nyr]

I will also add that code can always improve areas of the game, but roleplay can bridge the gaps between what the codebase does and what it doesn't do.

Some of these posts are starting to move into areas that do not need to be discussed on the GDB.
Some things are public documentation.  Some things about this particular system are NOT in public documentation.

If you need to know, ask.  Otherwise, you don't need to bring it up here.

[Malken]

So maybe no one really wants to apply for Chosen roles because it seems to be that no one really understands how it works except for a tiny percentage of the playerbase  

Are the docs detailed enough that, say, an average player like myself could jump into that sort of role without making a total fool of myself within a week?