The Great Defense "Nerf"

[brytta.leofa]

Can rangers hunt effectively in the south now?  Could they before?

By "effectively" I mean something like "at 10 days played, without spending more in arrows than the critter's worth."

[Synthesis]

I didn't realize it was that bad.  I just thought that they changed it so that some single tough guy could still get beat up by a few noobs, just for realism sake unless the guy is like a super-ninja or something.  I could see how it could be annoying for a veteran ranger that is still getting owned by average critters in the wastes... but then again, I don't want to role up some 40 yr old veteran guard and not be able to defend myself just because I don't have hours and hours of sparring under my belt.  *shrug*  ...Which still happens, but I guess at least you can get a few friends and have a chance against someone that has been sparring every day for hours.  I don't know, I haven't seen every situation... I was just hoping they tried to balance things out a bit... especially for those of us that don't have as much time to play as we would like.

That might be why they changed it.  However, as a consequence of this, classes that lack parry now have all the effective defense of a mewling kitten.

[Synthesis]

Can rangers hunt effectively in the south now?  Could they before?

By "effectively" I mean something like "at 10 days played, without spending more in arrows than the critter's worth."

Prior to the defense nerf, a ranger could hunt scrabs solo without getting pinched more than once after about 5-7 days of Byn training.  Nowadays, avoiding the pinch is practically impossible...the only question is whether you can bring it down by superior offense before it gets more than 2 attacks in on you.

Considering the fact that I've seen guys get reeled to death by those (formerly) pathetically wimpy snakes that occasionally lurk around certain places...I'm not sure that's a risk most sane players are willing to take.

[X-D]

I think Synthesis is overstating just a bit.

But, I'll tell you what I miss since the addition of reel combined with the parry nerf.

Combat emotes. I used to love combat emotes, even got mention on mine from an overlord before. And used to be that even a non-combat class could get defense high enough to get an emote or two off before fleeing or dying. Now, nope, defense on non-warriors is so low that the risk of getting reel locked is too high to even risk it. I myself never minded the long half day battles between a couple of vet warriors before reel and parry nerf, oh sure, a few people complained, but for me, hey, it is a fantasy game of roleplay, man I loved having time to come up with snazzy emotes and banter with my opponent like in books and movies. Sadly, that is long gone.

[Fathi]

Can rangers hunt effectively in the south now?  Could they before?

By "effectively" I mean something like "at 10 days played, without spending more in arrows than the critter's worth."

I never played a ranger in the south before the code changes, but I had little luck doing it in early '07. Jozhals were the only prey my character could take without having a warrior (or sometimes two) engage the animal for them.

And generally, the cost of archery wasn't a concern because the winds were bad enough that you couldn't waste ammunition even if you wanted.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

• Rangers need traps to compensate for the way combat treats them now, both ranged and hand-to-hand. Otherwise, they are fine.
• Assassins need a better system for determining their backstab and sap skills, so that training them is just as hard, but not so OOC in many cases. Otherwise, they are fine.
• Warriors are just fine.
• Any other class that wants to fight can deal with what they get.
• We need a subclass that offers the four basic weapon skills and parry at a low cap. Call it fighter. This will nearly murder guild-sniffing of any kind, and really offers nothing at all to unbalance the game. We have every other occupation but being a soldier available by sub-guild. Even it out.
  

[Forest Junkie]

• Rangers need traps to compensate for the way combat treats them now, both ranged and hand-to-hand. Otherwise, they are fine.
• Assassins need a better system for determining their backstab and sap skills, so that training them is just as hard, but not so OOC in many cases. Otherwise, they are fine.
• Warriors are just fine.
• Any other class that wants to fight can deal with what they get.
• We need a subclass that offers the four basic weapon skills and parry at a low cap. Call it fighter. This will nearly murder guild-sniffing of any kind, and really offers nothing at all to unbalance the game. We have every other occupation but being a soldier available by sub-guild. Even it out.
  

YES PLEASE

[Qzzrbl]

Why not make 'parry' eventually branchable for all classes?

It just doesn't make sense to me that any character (Other than those that do get parry), regardless of guild, doesn't eventually think, "Hey, I should maybe try hitting this guy's sword with my sword and maybe not get my ass majorly handed to me."

I'm not saying make the other classes anywhere close to being able to take a warrior. I'm just saying give that 50+ day burglar at least a a chance of getting away from a newbie warrior.

Maybe even give 'em a boost to "flee"?

[staggerlee]

Why not make 'parry' eventually branchable for all classes?

It just doesn't make sense to me that any character (Other than those that do get parry), regardless of guild, doesn't eventually think, "Hey, I should maybe try hitting this guy's sword with my sword and maybe not get my ass majorly handed to me."

I'm not saying make the other classes anywhere close to being able to take a warrior. I'm just saying give that 50+ day burglar at least a a chance of getting away from a newbie warrior.

Maybe even give 'em a boost to "flee"?

A 50+ burglar that's actually been training his combat will do just fine against a fresh out of the box newbie warrior.

[Synthesis]

Why not make 'parry' eventually branchable for all classes?

It just doesn't make sense to me that any character (Other than those that do get parry), regardless of guild, doesn't eventually think, "Hey, I should maybe try hitting this guy's sword with my sword and maybe not get my ass majorly handed to me."

I'm not saying make the other classes anywhere close to being able to take a warrior. I'm just saying give that 50+ day burglar at least a a chance of getting away from a newbie warrior.

Maybe even give 'em a boost to "flee"?

A 50+ burglar that's actually been training his combat will do just fine against a fresh out of the box newbie warrior.

Ha, yeah...and a week later (once his primary weapon skill easily outclasses your maxed base defense), he'll be handing you your ass with a flourish.

I think the more relevant issue here is:  why should you have to spend 1,000+ hours of your life only to be able to do "just fine" against someone who just rolled up a newbie warrior?  And if you're only doing "just fine" against newbie warriors, what about the uberguards of crime-code doom?

[Spoon]

The grass is always greener. I personally think the defense nerf is great. It's far more fickle, as it should be.

Rangers getting pinched by scrabs? Great. It's a huge beastly insect designed for killing prey of about humanoid size. Players should not feel comfortable taking on something like that on their own. I hate the way things like scrabs totally lose their deadly, Zalanthas-style appeal because they're the first monster people run into and known to be weaker than most dangerous mobs. Everything now has the potential to be as dangerous as the brutal, low-fantasy setting intends.

[Qzzrbl]

It's a huge beastly insect designed for killing prey of about humanoid size. Players should not feel comfortable taking on something like that on their own.

Then why should warriors?

I'm by no means saying "Balance the guilds for combat."

I love that warriors can get better at combat than any other guild.

[Synthesis]

The grass is always greener. I personally think the defense nerf is great. It's far more fickle, as it should be.

Rangers getting pinched by scrabs? Great. It's a huge beastly insect designed for killing prey of about humanoid size. Players should not feel comfortable taking on something like that on their own. I hate the way things like scrabs totally lose their deadly, Zalanthas-style appeal because they're the first monster people run into and known to be weaker than most dangerous mobs. Everything now has the potential to be as dangerous as the brutal, low-fantasy setting intends.

Yeah, it's all fun and games until it's your -job- to bring in scrab shells/duskhorn horns/etc., but you can't ever get it done until your newbie warrior buddy logs in so he can tank for you.

For that matter, why in the hell do warriors even -get- the skinning skill without having to pick subguild hunter?  "I've been training all my life for combat...and oh, by the way...I've got a pretty fly sense of anatomy as well."

I feel like rangers now are little midgets that people carry around in their backpacks just in case a storm breaks out or they need something poisoned. 

And as always, this doesn't apply to d-elves and other karma-required races.

[Qzzrbl]

I wish I could be actually scared when I see a scrab pop up and I'm by myself. Like, "OMGWTFBBQKITTEN!" scared, like when a tarantula or beetle is a few rooms away.

I'd like to think hunting game like scrabs should be a group effort. Get 2-3 rangers, maybe a warrior thrown in the mix to hunt stuff like that.

[brytta.leofa]

I think that an adult character of the dominant race, playing the dominant hunting class, with an IC year of intensive training, ought to be able to reliably solo-hunt at least one common critter within a reasonable journey of the biggest population center. 

That's just from the perspective of More Better Fun; in-character, Allanak and environs are what they are.

[Synthesis]

I wish I could be actually scared when I see a scrab pop up and I'm by myself. Like, "OMGWTFBBQKITTEN!" scared, like when a tarantula or beetle is a few rooms away.

I'd like to think hunting game like scrabs should be a group effort. Get 2-3 rangers, maybe a warrior thrown in the mix to hunt stuff like that.

Man, the solo hunter is Armageddon's oldest and noblest profession.  Not only that, but it's the most comfortable for newbies who are uncomfortable displaying their noobishness around others, and it's the role of choice for misanthropes who enjoy the game.

Furthermore, if every hunting trip is going to require 2-3 people...why would anyone -choose- to be the weakest link?  If you know that you're going to need 2-3 guys to get any hunting job done, and you want to play a hunter...why in the HELL would you choose to play the guy who has the greatest chance of incurring the random wrath of a shitty defense roll?

Beyond that, what about roles that pretty much require soloing around?  How are you going to support your raider in-between raids if you can't even kill scrabs to eat?  It's not like there's a whole hell of a lot of other options for hunting in the south.

I'd -really- hate to see everything reduced down to "join a team or suffer scrab death."

And to cop out for my last point:

Scrab     (General)

Common in the areas surrounding Allanak, these insectoid creatures stand taller and larger than the average human, and their heads are fringed with a multitude of milky, translucent eyes. These beasts, while fairly common, have an aggressive hunter's instinct and a back terrible for riding, and thus are never used as mounts. They are often easy prey to the hunters of Allanak and the southlands, with a pale, soft yellow meat within their thorax, a head that if cooked properly is considered a delicacy, and a tough shell that can often be sold for coins in the larger cities.

[flurry]

This is an interesting discussion, but could people be careful about what you're revealing about skill trees, for the sake of our newer players? If it's not in the help files, we shouldn't be talking about what skills branch for which classes.

[Synthesis]

This is an interesting discussion, but could people be careful about what you're revealing about skill trees, for the sake of our newer players? If it's not in the help files, we shouldn't be talking about what skills branch for which classes.

Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows.

Highly skilled assassins tend to become more akin to warriors late in their careers. Having mastered the basic skills, an assassin will often begin to learn a mastery of parrying enemy attacks.

So...what's the problem?

[flurry]

Try help warrior and your rant about one of their skills.

[Myrdryn]

Are you just talking about reeling blows, or something else?

[Forest Junkie]

It's far more fickle, as it should be.

Why should defense be fickle?

[Delstro]

Well, I definately like the nerf.

Before the nerf, I once took a ranger with awesome stats out to hunt scrab at 5 hours old. I beat the shit out of it. I am probably the cause of the nerf actually. I definately enjoy how it is now, but... I do get pissed when I had a one hour old warrior with good stats have my initial sparring session with a Byn Trooper that was in for 4 IC years and I handed it to him, and blew a kiss.

[Dalmeth]

Are you just talking about reeling blows, or something else?

I think what's being referred to is the combination of reeling, the speed at which characters take damage, and a perceived increase in the combat skills of smaller creatures.

[Synthesis]

Are you just talking about reeling blows, or something else?

We're talking about the (relatively) recent code change to combat, which fixed a "bug" that enabled characters without the parrying skill to nevertheless parry somewhat effectively.

As a consequence of this, classes who lack the parrying skill have taken a fairly severe blow to their overall ability to defend themselves, against pretty much everything.  As a result, it's become very difficult for such classes to "do their thing," so to speak.

[Armaddict]

OMG, you mean rangers can't just go out and start hunting without fear, straight out of the box, by themselves, anymore?

Travesty!

Warriors beat snot out of people, when the vast majority of all of their skills are in the 'combat' portion of the skill list?

TRAVESTY!

Hitpoint loss comes faster, hits come harder, and there are fewer half-day and day-long fights when people with weapons are going at each other with lethal intent?

ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY!


Seriously.