Things the 'rinth needs

[Synthesis]

Just like it says, things that would make the 'rinth way cooler than it currently is.  A wish list:

1.  More intelligent NPC AI.  I want NPCs who are weaklings to run for their fucking lives when they're being ganked, not just sit there like angry fidos and take a beating.

2.  More alleys.  I'd like to see a bunch of 'enter alley' objects, a la the alleys in Red Storm.  It seems like the primary 'rinth grid is fairly dense, so the only way to add space would be to do it virtually by these sorts of enterable objects.

3.  Fewer virtual buildings, more real buildings.  Like the Poets' Circle in Tuluk, you could have 2, 3, 4,  5, whatever number of enterable buildings around dead ends, or along the larger alleys.  These buildings could be player housing, gang hideouts, secret entrances up to rooftops, secret entrances to the sewers, whatever.

4.  An integrated rooftop system.  I'd like to be able to travel the rooftops from one side to the other.

5.  Cheap, crappy player housing.

6.  More available documentation on 'rinth gangs.  If you've been living there your whole life, you should know that the Wu-Tang Clan "ain't nothin' to fuck with."

7.  More things to do.  As it is, it seems like scraping the mess off the alleys after NPCs obliterate each other and scavenging dead newbie corpses are the only things you can do to get by.  When you get bored, you can go backstab something for basically no reason at all...whoop-de-do.  If you're in a gang, you should have some turf to protect (along with NPCs to take tolls from/defend turf from).  There should be NPC spice addicts that make daily/weekly forays into the 'rinth to get their fix (similar to the SimDesert code elsewhere), who you can jack for their spice stash/coins.

8.  More staff presence.  At least half a dozen times, I've been thumped on the head while out in gith or mantis country for doing dumb shit.  I don't think I've ever been harassed by a staff member while in the 'rinth, despite doing things that are infinitely more ridiculous in comparison.

9.  More danger.  As it stands, as long as you're wearing the right stuff and you don't pick fights, you can languish in the 'rinth forever, and make a decent living from it.  Once you know how certain NPCs react, the place is very bland.  I'd like for the neighborhood psycho NPC actually to behave psychotically:  maybe he'll attack you...maybe he won't...who the fuck knows? He's fucking crazy.  I'd like random muggers to spawn who'll jack you even if you're wearing rags, just to see if you might be hiding something somewhere.

10.  More staff direction.  Every once in awhile, some glorious Imm will approve a clanned PC or bestow official recognition on an established PC, and the 'rinth will flourish for a couple of months, then slowly fade back into grey blandness as the PCs slowly die off.  Most of the time, playing in the 'rinth leaves you feeling bored and without direction.  There aren't any goals, beyond "increase skills X, Y, and Z" and "make some money."

11.  Less interference from the fuzz.  If the entire 'rinth received the kind of attention from law enforcement in Allanak as the PC representatives of the 'rinth do, there wouldn't -exist- any such thing as "gangs" or "clans" or anything else.  Not everyone with the "assassin" skillset is out to assassinate Tektolnes, for crying out loud.

12.  Return of the rats.  Make them impossible to backstab or sap, and make them easy to skin (or make the corpses directly edible).  The 'rinth just isn't the same without scads of rats running around.  (You could code a "scurrying" movement flag, and put the same sorts of combat initiation restrictions on it that "flying" has:  "You try to kick/backstab/bash a mangy rat, but he scurries away!" Just for example.)

13.  Turf wars.  Every once in awhile, Gang X should move in on Gang Y's territory, and players should have a stake in the outcome of these battles.  Maybe a certain alley has a certain amount of "toll" traffic coming through, and that translates directly to increased dividends paid out to PC gang members...I don't know.  Something along those lines.  Maybe Gang Y's goons are guarding the local meat shop, but if you kill the guards or make them run off, and you can hold them off for time t, your Gang X's NPCs will then be guarding the shop, and you get a cut of the profits.

14.  An easier way to -join- 'rinth gangs.  As it stands, you have to wait around for the Staff to bestow official recognition on someone.  You should be able to put "member of gang X" in your background (a la desert elves) and start in the gang X hideout in the 'rinth.

That's all I've got for now.  A lot of these are interrelated, I know.

Discuss!

[Fathi]

More people playing in it.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I guess I kind of assumed that "if you build it, they will come."

[Fathi]

Oh, I wasn't trying to threadshit--I was just saying that I think one of the things that discourages players from apping into the Labyrinth is the lack of interaction and/or the perceived lack of activity.

Also: I want my characters to codedly smell like the alleys and sewers.

[Qzzrbl]

YES!

And I guess, as much as I'm against renting housing or apartments of any sort in the alleys, that such a thing would make 'Rinth more playable and raise the PC population overall.

[Delstro]

I'd definately play more if I had more computer generated quests to accomplish/compete for.

Maybe the Red-headed board troller wants the orange ball from the crazy guy with brown hair and he'll pay you for it.
Maybe next week he'll want you to deliver some spice southside and you'll get paid for it.
Maybe the next week, the brown-haired strong man wants the orange ball from the red-headed board troller.
EverytimeI play there, it feels like there is nothing to do without other Pcs.

[Riev]

While Delstro has a good idea, I think that idea is more of a good ideal on the -whole-, but if we're talking about just the 'rinth, we're talking about Arm.1 stuff that might be a little easier on the hands of the coders.


I really like Syn's ideas (especially the integrated roof system, that always erked me a bit), and some more staff presence. I've known a lot of people that insist that playing in the 'rinth is what hooked them, but whenever I've tried to do it, it just seemed really boring. Why not just greb for salt? Sure its dangerous, but you live in the 'rinth for Krath-sakes, it can't be MUCH more dangerous. There doesn't seem to be -much- going on other than "This is the human side, that is the elf side. If your sneak is good enough, it doesn't really matter". Maybe the coded clan wars or something would be nice, or at least maybe a small RPT that is imm-animated a bit to have people choose sides, and maybe once a RL month, the 'rinthers try to change hands on who owns the well or something?

[number13]

The Rinth needs:

* A 'safe harbor' for southsiders to come in and spend their precious, precious coin on spice (and other illicit substances), the path there patrolled by PC muggers --- not NPC muggers.  The only critters that ought to be attacked on sight by NPCs on the path to this spot are the bloody militia (and friends -- Templars, Noble House employees)
* Saner prices on the illicit substances, possibly including some weaker spice cut with sand (or whatever)
* Less NPCs dropping phat loot. most rithi gear should be nigh worthless because of the stink
* A staff member occasionally rolling in to spank psychopaths/mass killers/overt spell casters.  The common VNPC population should not put up with that kind of shit.  Code in a few Angry Mob units that go berserk when needed.
* Tunnels that are bit easier to on the stamina gauge
* Less players worried about their kill count or hiding away in their secret lairs -- more players worried about interacting and having fun, nonlethal conflicts
* 5 to 1 ratio of mundanes vs. non-mundanes.  At the minimum.

As for the fuzz -- that's an IC thing. There's lot of things that players in the Rinth can do about the militia, etc.

And no self-respecting rinthi would go salt grebbing.  Firstly, rinthi characters should have -something- wrong with them that makes giong southside problematic.  Horribly disgusting mutants, escaped slaves, virtual death sentences, actual death sentences (piss off a templar asap) are all good.  Secondly, rinthi characters shouldn't want to work hard for a living. The ones that grew up in the tight Rinthi space should freak out a little just going out into the desert.

[Riev]

And no self-respecting rinthi would go salt grebbing.  Firstly, rinthi characters should have -something- wrong with them that makes giong southside problematic.  Horribly disgusting mutants, escaped slaves, virtual death sentences, actual death sentences (piss off a templar asap) are all good.  Secondly, rinthi characters shouldn't want to work hard for a living. The ones that grew up in the tight Rinthi space should freak out a little just going out into the desert.

While I would actually tend to agree, can you explain -why-? Other than a pre-conceived notion as to how a 'rinther should act? (Without getting into the philosophy of "Should")

I just want to know reasons, OOC, that a 'rinther wouldn't even leave the 'rinth. Coin can be made anywhere, and isn't that all they want? Coin and maybe a bite to eat?

[Mood]

The vast majority of 'rinthi live and die within the Labyrinth, and never know anything else. Who knows what sort of horrors lurk in the wastes? Sure, the 'rinth is shitty, harsh, and dangerous, but at least it's familiar.

[My 2 sids]

I think the OOC needs to leave the 'rinith need to change.  If a PC could actually live and die in the 'rinith (food, water, skills, plots) then the 'rinith could become _the_ spot to play a non-political city PC.  Grubbers, indies, full-time mercinaries, and of course shady types   should all flock to the 'rinith.

** Hard/gritty life ~  PCs shouldn't have power nor sid status outside the 'rinith.  None of this negotiating with 'nak's upper-crust or "secret" templarate pet stuff.   If a 'rinither is found outside they should promptly be ridiculed and/or given a sound beating and sent back.  PCs should have to beg and beg if they want a house to even consider employing them (in fact, they should be given lower pay _unless_ hired by Kurac or the Byn)

**A market ~ they need a place to buy cheap raw goods, sell their crap (kind of like the shop in Red Storm), and obtain food and water (both approprate in terms of price and quality).  Plus, with added PCs there is always the ability to sell to other PCs

**Plots ~ I'd like to see Guild retire or add Imm overseeing "gangs of the 'rinith"   These are true PC groups (the precurser to the new game). 

**Housing ~ again, maybe just one apartment where the locks are crap but the men guarding the apartment gates will kill ya if they catch you trying to sneak in. 

[number13]

If a PC could actually live and die in the 'rinith (food, water, skills, plots)

Actually, yes. That really is what the rinth needs, most of all.

While I would actually tend to agree, can you explain -why-? Other than a pre-conceived notion as to how a 'rinther should act? (Without getting into the philosophy of "Should")

For the all the same reasons a person might never leave the confines of a real world slum.  They don't believe they can aspire to better, and are a little scared outside their element -- the place they've known all their lives.

The Rinth should feel safer to a rinthi than elsewhere. It might not partially because of the extreme difficulties of acquiring the basics of life (water) for a Rinth-only character. And because of murderous kill count PCs not being properly spanked, for various reasons.

[My 2 sids]

While I would actually tend to agree, can you explain -why-? Other than a pre-conceived notion as to how a 'rinther should act? (Without getting into the philosophy of "Should")

I just want to know reasons, OOC, that a 'rinther wouldn't even leave the 'rinth. Coin can be made anywhere, and isn't that all they want? Coin and maybe a bite to eat?

Think about why the 'rinth has developed its own culture and language -- it's a mini city unto itself.  That would only take place if the typical 'rinther had limited interaction with 'nak proper. 

If your typical 'rinither is walking down one of their own allies they may get jumped/whatever.  BUT, they know how to react to that situation (be it fleeing or playing dead or fighting back).   Not to mention knowing you can alway WAY your friends and they'll come to your aid.  But in 'nak, who knows?  If some big bad guy in the Gaj decides to beat you up, what can you do?  Don't know if playing dead or offering money will work.  Don't have any friends around.  And if you try and defend yourself -- well then the big bad templarate become involved!!   It'd be like taking some Blood/Cript  and  dropping them in the middle of Manhatten -- the rules have changed!!

I remember a 'rinth PC who wouldn't walk around 'nak at night because she thought it was too dangerous!!   Fear of the unknown can have a pretty big impact on someone.   Maybe a templar will look at her and she'll turn to stone (they have powers you know)  Maybe some noble will snatch her up as a slave (no way to escape those locked houses)   Maybe some soilder will decide to use her for target practice   --- Who knows?  That world is, almost exclusivly, unknown.

[Desertman]

I have never played a rinther...

If some of these ideas were implemented, I definantly would.

[some guy]

1.  More intelligent NPC AI.  I want NPCs who are weaklings to run for their fucking lives when they're being ganked, not just sit there like angry fidos and take a beating.

I agree. And since the rinth is a place of reputations and such, it would be really neat if something could be done with that so that PCs could earn a reputation that codedly prevented some muggers from jumping them. I personally doubt that will happen, though, and the closest thing we have is that some NPCs will assist you if you're in the right clan. Unfortunately, they'll still try and mug you as well, so sometimes you'll get an NPC gang coming in and one tries to attack you while the rest of them assist you against their own pal. Kinda silly, heh.

2.  More alleys.  I'd like to see a bunch of 'enter alley' objects, a la the alleys in Red Storm.  It seems like the primary 'rinth grid is fairly dense, so the only way to add space would be to do it virtually by these sorts of enterable objects.

Yes please. The Labyrinth doesn't live up to its name, and it's really not very big. You could search through the whole place in a few minutes if you know the layout, and it needs more alleys. Enterable ones would be especially neat since they tend to feel more secluded, like alleys should.

3.  Fewer virtual buildings, more real buildings.  Like the Poets' Circle in Tuluk, you could have 2, 3, 4,  5, whatever number of enterable buildings around dead ends, or along the larger alleys.  These buildings could be player housing, gang hideouts, secret entrances up to rooftops, secret entrances to the sewers, whatever.

Fully agreed. There's woefully few buildings in the place, and they're mostly copies of the same prototype.

4.  An integrated rooftop system.  I'd like to be able to travel the rooftops from one side to the other.

Yes please. There's a little bit of this, but more would be great.

5.  Cheap, crappy player housing.

This one I kinda don't agree with. The rinth is underpopulated, always has been and probably always will be. What it doesn't need is more places for people to stay safely out of sight in.

6.  More available documentation on 'rinth gangs.  If you've been living there your whole life, you should know that the Wu-Tang Clan "ain't nothin' to fuck with."

I think we need more gangs before we need documentation for them. The ones that already exist are pretty well known by anyone who has spent any length of time in the rinth.

7.  More things to do.  As it is, it seems like scraping the mess off the alleys after NPCs obliterate each other and scavenging dead newbie corpses are the only things you can do to get by.  When you get bored, you can go backstab something for basically no reason at all...whoop-de-do.  If you're in a gang, you should have some turf to protect (along with NPCs to take tolls from/defend turf from).  There should be NPC spice addicts that make daily/weekly forays into the 'rinth to get their fix (similar to the SimDesert code elsewhere), who you can jack for their spice stash/coins.

I agree, but I also think that if some of all these ideas were actually implemented, things to do would occur naturally.

8.  More staff presence.  At least half a dozen times, I've been thumped on the head while out in gith or mantis country for doing dumb shit.  I don't think I've ever been harassed by a staff member while in the 'rinth, despite doing things that are infinitely more ridiculous in comparison.

Yeah. I have never seen any evidence of the staff minotoring the rinth.

9.  More danger.  As it stands, as long as you're wearing the right stuff and you don't pick fights, you can languish in the 'rinth forever, and make a decent living from it.  Once you know how certain NPCs react, the place is very bland.  I'd like for the neighborhood psycho NPC actually to behave psychotically:  maybe he'll attack you...maybe he won't...who the fuck knows? He's fucking crazy.  I'd like random muggers to spawn who'll jack you even if you're wearing rags, just to see if you might be hiding something somewhere.

Yeah, that would be neat, but again I think that if the more important things are implemented, the playerbase of the rinth could rise to the point where these things happen from PCs, and that's always preferable.

10.  More staff direction.  Every once in awhile, some glorious Imm will approve a clanned PC or bestow official recognition on an established PC, and the 'rinth will flourish for a couple of months, then slowly fade back into grey blandness as the PCs slowly die off.  Most of the time, playing in the 'rinth leaves you feeling bored and without direction.  There aren't any goals, beyond "increase skills X, Y, and Z" and "make some money."

I think most of the realistic goals depend on other PCs being around, and I don't feel that the staff should be directly responsible. However, it would be great if they were better at noticing when things grow stagnant and doing something about that, such as letting in special characters like you mentioned. They should also be equally good at not doing that at times when it's not needed, because it tends to dominate the entire area when it happens.

11.  Less interference from the fuzz.  If the entire 'rinth received the kind of attention from law enforcement in Allanak as the PC representatives of the 'rinth do, there wouldn't -exist- any such thing as "gangs" or "clans" or anything else.  Not everyone with the "assassin" skillset is out to assassinate Tektolnes, for crying out loud.

Yeah. Sometimes I've been appalled at what has been done to seemingly prevent the rinth from being the rinth.

12.  Return of the rats.  Make them impossible to backstab or sap, and make them easy to skin (or make the corpses directly edible).  The 'rinth just isn't the same without scads of rats running around.  (You could code a "scurrying" movement flag, and put the same sorts of combat initiation restrictions on it that "flying" has:  "You try to kick/backstab/bash a mangy rat, but he scurries away!" Just for example.)

I wouldn't mind.

13.  Turf wars.  Every once in awhile, Gang X should move in on Gang Y's territory, and players should have a stake in the outcome of these battles.  Maybe a certain alley has a certain amount of "toll" traffic coming through, and that translates directly to increased dividends paid out to PC gang members...I don't know.  Something along those lines.  Maybe Gang Y's goons are guarding the local meat shop, but if you kill the guards or make them run off, and you can hold them off for time t, your Gang X's NPCs will then be guarding the shop, and you get a cut of the profits.

Again, I think these things should be conducted by the PC population, and I think the staff's job is to make the place attract PCs.

14.  An easier way to -join- 'rinth gangs.  As it stands, you have to wait around for the Staff to bestow official recognition on someone.  You should be able to put "member of gang X" in your background (a la desert elves) and start in the gang X hideout in the 'rinth.

Yeah, but that would foremost require more gangs. For all intents and purposes, there are only two and they pretty much rule over their respective sides of the rinth. All attempts of making new gangs that I've witnessed have failed because of either boredom, death to some all-powerful and destructive rinth denizen, or an utter lack of support for the entrepeneurs.

[My 2 sids]

Some things I should think wouldn't take much work, thus could be implemented even now as Arm.2 looms near.

Plots ~ Perhaps have few players special app for leadership characters.   Even if it isn't the Guild persay, come up with one or two leadership PCs and build groups that way.   Just a tiny bit of IMM plot introduction and let things get started.

Food ~ I like the rats idea.  Move some of the NPCs (rotten fruit) into 'rinith. 

Danger ~ Tell blue robes to disreguard PCs == these PCs have no political power.  See what happens then if a PC steps outside the 'rinith.

[number13]

Yeah. I have never seen any evidence of the staff monitoring the rinth.

I have seen direct evidence of staff monitoring. It happens, possibly more frequently than even I suspect.

I totally understand why the reluctance to overtly intervene exists. It is better to let PCs handle certain issues. I also understand how delicate that surgery has to be, otherwise it ends up smacking as favoritism. But then there are times when the 'good guys' are totally outclassed and outnumbered by the 'bad guys'.

Balancing act, that is made mostly moot when there is a stable backbone of 'good guy' PCs, as there has been during the best days of the Rinth. (for all I know, that backbone exists right now.)

[Lord of Charas]

We don't need housing, but we do need more buildings. All we have are alleys, alleys and more alleys. The 'Rinth is supposed to be full of buildings; there is simply going to be more building-space in there than alley-space. Thus we get unequal representation of the environment. I wouldn't like to see the alleys populated with NPC's, but now and then there might maybe, be a really large warehouse style building populated with a large NPC population, which could be its own little shanty town p'raps. There seems to be only one sort of NPC community in the 'Rinth, and that's gang community. These more common people should band together for protection. Now there are -some- common street trash here and there, but mostly the thugs out-number and out-represent them from what I've seen.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm satisfied so long I stay out of the 'Rinth, tbh.

[Mood]

Less sorcerernilazipsionicist plots, and more mundane ones.

[Qzzrbl]

Less sorcerernilazipsionicist plots, and more mundane ones.

Yes plz. 

[roughneck]

I love playing in the 'rinth.  The people who built it did an amazing job of building a maze-like system of alleys that somehow still works well for navigation, isn't frustratingly vast but is still -really- easy to get lost or turned around in, especially if you're new to the area.  The problem is that it's more of a skeleton, and although it's a fantastically constructed skeleton it still lacks the flesh that could really fill it out.  I think if some of us who've spent a lot of time playing there wrote in to the mud and offered to write up some of this stuff we'd have a pretty good chance of seeing it go in.

[Maso]

I feel that the eastside is relatively good in terms of buildings and development. The westside however, is very lacking.

I would wholly support any plans to add to and develop the 'rinth. It is my favourite part of the game and I sometimes feel it's development has been neglected (perhaps not just the 'rinth, but Allanak as a whole).

Editted.

Thanks Tis. It's late.

[Tisiphone]

I feel that the eastside is relatively good in terms of buildings and development. The eastside however, is very lacking.

I would wholly support any plans to add to and develop the 'rinth. It is my favourite part of the game and I sometimes feel it's development has been neglected (perhaps not just the 'rinth, but Allanak as a whole).

Do you mean east-side/west-side, or west-side/east-side?

[Boggis]

Less sorcerernilazipsionicist plots, and more mundane ones.

Exactly what it needs. Once the sorcerernilazipsionicist plots disappear people can actually go about making the 'rinth into a proper criminal area again. If they're still widespread they inevitably crush all mundane plots as your average 'rinther gets coerced and bullied into doing whatever the above's bidding is. Personally, I think we're just going to have to wait until Arm 2 and Basal though to see mundane criminal activities flourish.

[Archbaron]

Less sorcerernilazipsionicist plots, and more mundane ones.

Yeah, heh.

[titansfan]

I personally think it's fine right now...all the stuff you all have been mentioning is happening. Shit I have had many circumstances in which my Rinther has had TOO much to do....sometimes it was just crazy all the stuff I had on my plate.

[Forest Junkie]

I think the 'rinth would be a cooler place to play if it wasn't a breeding ground for twinks, pk'ers, and assassins who practice backstab on -everything-.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the unarmed elderly npcs, and even the children npcs, dead. The alleyways are literally filled with them on a daily basis.

[Armaddict]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the unarmed elderly npcs, and even the children npcs, dead. The alleyways are literally filled with them on a daily basis.

Indeed.  The players who -don't- do this end up getting mugged or killed by those who do such easily, often for reasons as simple as 'He wouldn't lower his hood when I told him to!'.

Not only that, but a personal peeve of mine...it seems to be the new thing to leave mercy on, so that you don't actually KILL those npc's.  Which means they never reload.  Which means that all the time, the 'rinth ends up as a slew of alleys just filled with stunned or incapacitated npc's, hence keeping new 'muggers' from reloading.

Which may deprive easy twinking, but it also deprives those alleys of the non-pc 'danger' that is supposed to be there in the first place.

[spicemustflow]

What rinth also needs are players who buy only the bare necessities and junk their starting coin, scraping their way up. It really ruins the mood of poverty, misery and desperation when you meet a PC and he says "let me just pop to the bank and we'll buy some picks.".

Oh, and Haruch Kemad.

[some guy]

Not only that, but a personal peeve of mine...it seems to be the new thing to leave mercy on, so that you don't actually KILL those npc's.  Which means they never reload.  Which means that all the time, the 'rinth ends up as a slew of alleys just filled with stunned or incapacitated npc's, hence keeping new 'muggers' from reloading.

The coded solution is to have NPCs actually die or recover when they've been incapacitated. I've always wondered why they don't, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose to leave them permanently disabled like that.

[Qzzrbl]

I think the 'rinth would be a cooler place to play if it wasn't a breeding ground for twinks, pk'ers, and assassins who practice backstab on -everything-.

Not to mention the magickers that spam cast on the live targets.

[Ghost]

Not only that, but a personal peeve of mine...it seems to be the new thing to leave mercy on, so that you don't actually KILL those npc's.  Which means they never reload.  Which means that all the time, the 'rinth ends up as a slew of alleys just filled with stunned or incapacitated npc's, hence keeping new 'muggers' from reloading.

To my observation, this is not entirely PC-doing, especially in the eastside.  There are a few NPC critters that fight each other.  There is one group of NPCs in the rinth wearing valuable equipment.  When an NPC from another clan comes nearby these, the fight starts.  And there is also a specific aggressive NPC that attacks anything so long they are not part of a certain society. In any of these NPC vs NPC fights, if one of them knocks the other out, the NPCs are not programmed to finish off, so when the threat is gone they stop fighting.  Adding to this, there is the NPC behavior of "assist those in your clan" so whenever there is a fight nearby, all the NPCs within one room distance are joining to the fight and the rest is just a pile of unconscious or dead NPCs.
There is also a certain place, that when you are walking there a climb check is done.  A critical failure might result in the NPC's getting knocked out.

I believe I have reported these NPC fights quite sometime ago, but I was not sure myself if the NPC gangs fighting each other was intentional or not, so when I did not hear back from it I did not press.

[Nyr]

Fast way to get rid of coin:

buy tattoos.

[Forest Junkie]

Fast way to get rid of coin:

buy tattoos.

I would, but tats cost more in the game than they do RL o_0

[Desertman]

The big problem I have with the Rinth is I absolutely refuse to run around randomly backstabbing the rancid piss out of NPC's.

I just cant force myself to do it.

Now, are the guys who run around spam killing NPC's like psycho's going to get uber leet and badass fifty times faster than me and probably kill me eventually because codedly they have "Mass Murdered" thier way up to God Backstab status? Yes.

Is that a bit disheartening? Yes.

But, thats the lay of the land.

I wish I could email in to the staff and say something like..."Ok, I havent murdered anyone randomly in the past couple of RL weeks, can I get a backstab stat boost just because I'm not being a complete idiot like the rest of these guys and shanking children and beggars six times a IC day?"

I probably wont get it, and so eventually I will probably break down and say..."You know what, fuck it, I'm tired of -sucking- donkey penis because I refuse to twink out, I guess I'll just conform." And then go on a mass killing spree for no reason.

[roughneck]

Fast way to get rid of coin:

buy tattoos.

And Spice.

[Ghost]

I believe the notion that "twinks constantly backstab all the kids in the rinth" is more of a player misperception.  I had a fair amount of time in the rinth and I have not seen too many of mass murderers/psychopaths in my time.  I would wager it is no more than the number of hunters who sweep the entire region killing all the critters in their path.

The reason the rinth is considered to be a ground for twink backstabbers, is because there are too many aggressive NPCs in the rinth, and they fight with each other too.  Once there is a fight, the NPCs fight until the threat is gone or they are dead.  Even when there is no PCs in the rinth, you could see piles of corpses or incapacitated NPCs lying on the ground.  Someone who comes upon such a scene would think it is the PCs' doing, however it is not always so.

Some PCs also have a single enemy in the rinth.  I encountered one PC, who talked about a certain NPC who beat him up back in the day and keeps beating him up everytime they see him.  He asked my help to take him and offered some coin and share of the loot.  We did go out and tried to backstab the NPC, but he beat us both up, and the guy went "I will get you" before fleeing.  I believe he could not get the said NPC, and eventually he died.  Now this guy was not your psycho, he did not kill everything.  Yet if you saw him baring his teeth to this NPC, you would probably think he is also responsible for the 28 dead NPCs in the next alley.

-Usually- (not always though), mass murderer/psycho mindset is pretty rare provided the player is not a newbie.  However, the NPC behavior in the rinth often will lead you to believe otherwise.

[Qzzrbl]

I believe the notion that "twinks constantly backstab all the kids in the rinth" is more of a player misperception.  I had a fair amount of time in the rinth and I have not seen too many of mass murderers/psychopaths in my time.

That's because they sneak every single step in their PC's life and spend retarded amounts of time hidden.

[Armaddict]

I wish I could email in to the staff and say something like..."Ok, I havent murdered anyone randomly in the past couple of RL weeks, can I get a backstab stat boost just because I'm not being a complete idiot like the rest of these guys and shanking children and beggars six times a IC day?"

This is too late for 1.arm, but I always wanted there to be a reputation/faction type thing going on.  Sure, you can backstab people from that gang, that tribe, that place, that group...but they'll remember.  So later on, one of those 'non-twinking' pc's is there, and gets attacked by that guy who is known as a troublemaker...and lo and behold, those guys decide to help this stranger against the bully that's caused them so much trouble.

I believe the notion that "twinks constantly backstab all the kids in the rinth" is more of a player misperception.  I had a fair amount of time in the rinth and I have not seen too many of mass murderers/psychopaths in my time.  I would wager it is no more than the number of hunters who sweep the entire region killing all the critters in their path.

Knowing some of those you played, I can remind you of the groups formed specifically to go out after muggers, because people couldn't stand the idea of wearing gear that wouldn't attract said muggers.  Not only that, but late night play often shows some who are attacking with no sign of reason.  Most not even from the alleys themselves.

[Ghost]

Knowing some of those you played, I can remind you of the groups formed specifically to go out after muggers, because people couldn't stand the idea of wearing gear that wouldn't attract said muggers.

Huh?  I don't understand what you mean here.  There were PC groups specifically killing mugger NPCs because they want to wear good outfit?

I know there was a warrior who was given a good set of armor and because of that he would be jumped on every corner.  He was good enough to drop a few muggers at a time, but he eventually died to an NPC gang bang.

I know another warrior who was obsessed with one weapon (a character quirk), and it took a good long while to make him drop the said weapon, because it was attracting every NPC's attention.

I am not sure if what you mean is these kinds of characters.

[Morrolan]

I had 'rinth PCs (over a year ago, and under a few hours of play) who was hunted all the way across the 'rinth by a PC (or a coded NPC so awesome that it made other NPCs look like congenital idiots) and backstabbed several times until dead.  This character had nothing visible (well, nothing at all, really) on them that would lead to an attack, kept to themselves, and was too newbie to actually sneak effectively.  Maybe he walked into the wrong place?  If that was the case, then fleeing back across the 'rinth might have gotten rid of his tail.

Sure, maybe that's just life in the 'rinth.  But it's at times like that that I might think back and say in a bored voice, "Congrats.  You're playing a homicidal PC.  Good job."  Right or wrong, that's the impression I walked away with.  Maybe it is just "player perception," but it's a player perception that the 'rinth isn't worth my time.

The things the 'rinth needs is, simply, a culture.  A real one that people could actually raise children in (they do!), with ways to survive (more or less) without going southside and without being the biggest badass ever.

Morrolan

[Zoan]

^ I had that problem with my first awesome, fun character. Sure, I walked into Eastside. I deserved a good stabbing. But I got the ole backstab; backstab; backstab ... routine which led to my demise. Where's the RP, yo? I went into East to have a little ZOMG Tense Conflict, but it didn't happen.

[Silverfaune]

^ I had that problem with my first awesome, fun character. Sure, I walked into Eastside. I deserved a good stabbing. But I got the ole backstab; backstab; backstab ... routine which led to my demise. Where's the RP, yo? I went into East to have a little ZOMG Tense Conflict, but it didn't happen.

This makes me feel really lucky.  My first character in the 'rinth wandered eastside when she should have wandered west.. got totally lost exploring (I didn' tknow there -was- a west/eastside then) and I was mugged.  I was scared shitless and had a great time for as long as it took me to hand over all my stuff and then run with my tail between my legs.  I got a good lesson in territory and the racial tensions, learned how to deal with really honestly being penniless in the slums instead of just pretending (I think I lost 800+, I was less than an hour old), and the elf that mugged me scored pretty big so we all won. 

I -could- have tried to attack him or tried the old "fuck off, I'm not giving you anything" routine and probably would have gotten clobbered good (or who knows, maybe he was a merchant?) and ended up dead.  But being given the opportunity to make that choice was great.  We should see more of that.  Wish I could give kudos now but I have no idea who it was.

[Synthesis]

Complaining on the GDB about the way people play is generally a pretty ineffective way of modifying player behavior in game.

I try to take the approach of evolutionary game theory:  people play the way they do because of a certain risk vs. reward structure that is dictated to a small degree by competition from other players, but to a much larger extent by the code situation in the 'rinth and the game at large.

If you modify this risk vs. reward structure by altering the code situation, player behavior will change and adapt accordingly.

For one of the given above examples, you could:
a) simply complain about elves chasing people west-side (GDB QQ strategy).
b) Form a player-based group dedicated to fucking up elves who go west-side (Player competition strategy)
c) Have an Imm code up a few "gatekeeper" NPCs who obliterate elves on sight (code-based strategy)

From the standpoint of overall effectiveness, the code-based strategy wins:  it's a permanent, 24/7 solution, and it gives players the impression "Yes, the immortals are serious about 'rinth boundaries.  Serious enough that they will put uber badasses west-side to enforce these boundaries."

What happened when the Imms coded up a bunch of muggers?  People stopped wearing fancy shit into the 'rinth.  Years of player complaining and attempts at enforcement didn't do a -damn- thing.  But when the Imms put a few hardass pterodactyl NPCs in, suddenly (almost) everyone conforms.

Hence, most of the suggestions I offered in the original post are code based.  Changing the local code environment will undoubtedly modify player behavior:  if you do it right, for the better.

[deconstruct99]

How about making it so you don't have to have your mouth permanently surrounding someone's diseased cock to survive in the rinth. Even when you -are- on your respective side and not making any trouble.

[RogueGunslinger]

How about making it so you don't have to have your mouth permanently surrounding someone's diseased cock to survive in the rinth. Even when you -are- on your respective side and not making any trouble.

I have never had this problem. Maybe your weak will is leeching into your characters.

[morrigan]

Some of you guys seem to be playing wrong. :p
I love the rinth, sure it needs a little work.
What I'd like to see is my rinth characters -not- becoming
the most insanely rich characters I've had. Life in the rinth is actually
a little too safe in my opinion. Once you know your way around, it's
cake.

And just for the record, if I lived in a warren of mazey alleys filled with people
who'd kill me for 10 sid, I'd sneak, skulk, hide and slink all the time too.

[Nyr]

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