Why do we kill (ICly and OOCly)

[Desertman]

Wait wait wait...

I think the problem here is when I said "Newbie Gear"...you guys thought I meant I went to buy "Starting Clothes".

I didnt mean..."Starting Clothes".

I do agree that would be some really bad form...

When I said "Newbie Gear"...I just meant basic cheap gear that can be bought from your local merchant.

The shit that most people buy when they start out, as in, not expensive stuff.

I didnt mean..."Bone studded backpack, Sandcloth Shirt, and Brown Pants".

I dont think anyone is argueing over the same issue here.

I can agree that using "Starting Gear" to fool raiders is very bad form, using "Newbie Gear" to luir raiders, is totally different.

By "Newbie Gear", I just meant gear that wasnt obviously bought because its looks "badass" and you can afford it because you have been alive a long time.

Newbie Gear to me is just basic commoner gear, sandcloth clothes of the cheap variety ect....What most commoners actually wear.

[Marauder Moe]

Fair enough, if that's what you really meant.

Though "newbie" is a bit of an OOC term for a brand new player/character, so it's understandable that people would interpret that as "starting" gear.  People might have understood better if you'd said "cheap" or "basic" gear.

Yeah, I think it's fine if an experienced, badass warrior wants to eschew fancy and expensive armors and weapons to ICly mask his ability/wealth.

[Desertman]

Fair enough, if that's what you really meant.

Though "newbie" is a bit of an OOC term for a brand new player/character, so it's understandable that people would interpret that as "starting" gear.  People might have understood better if you'd said "cheap" or "basic" gear.

Yeah, I think it's fine if an experienced, badass warrior wants to eschew fancy and expensive armors and weapons to ICly mask his ability/wealth.

Yeah, I started reading other peoples replies...I typically dont unless its an IMM, and I realized none of these people are argueing about the same thing.

I like to play "poor people"...like I said, I will throw away coins to stay poor, because I like playing a poor commoner. So my gear, regardless of how codedly badass I am, doesnt usually reflect the fact that I am codedly badass, because I am doing what I like to call "playing a role" instead of playing a PC.

So when I am out sid hacking with my 25 day warrior trying to get a few coins for a whore and ale for the night because I am broke, as usual, and I'm wearing my crappy hole-filled sandcloth clothes and my chipped obsidian sword...Its because I am playing a role.

Now when your raider attacks me and goes WTF!!!! HE IS A NEWBIE!!!...because I stomp thier ass and send thier sword flying away to the north...Sure I get an OOC kick out of it, and sure I OOC'ly sit around hoping they come in to try and raid me, because I think its funny OOC. Am I going to start buying uber leet gear with my "poor" commoner just so these guys can better guess how long I have been alive? No, because then I would be playing a PC, and not playing a role.

The point is, I think you guys are argueing over two totally seperate concepts.

Starting Clothes, and Newbie Clothes, were not meant to be interpreted as the same thing.

[Malken]

I think Rahnevyn said to shut it.

[Desertman]

I think Rahnevyn said to shut it.

Edited out due to better judgement, considering the source material.

[Marauder Moe]

I think Desertman's explanation should conclude the derail nicely.


Anyway, back on topic, then...

Maybe we need more coded non-lethal torture implements (the whip is the only one I know about currently).

Maybe an eye-gouging script that automatically applies the missing eye scar?

Maybe code for applying missing finger scars?

[ale six]

Easier ways to apply poisons (force feeding).

[Desertman]

Easier ways to apply poisons (force feeding).

I am in favor of this, I dont know how to code it so that it wouldnt be abused....maybe only if the victim is knocked out or subdued or something, but I am in favor of it in general.

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, definitely the victim for all these things needs to be subdued or unconscious.  Should also trigger a crim flag, so people don't go stabbing people in the eye for fun when someone passes out at the bar.

[Gimfalisette]

It might be helpful if clan leaders were more often willing to take something away from clan members, as punishments. Often it seems like if a minion from one clan pisses off someone important in another clan, nothing ever gets done about the legitimate problem; no punishment is forthcoming. If clan leaders were more happy to mete out punishments, especially harsh ones, then perhaps death would be less frequently sought as a vengeance method by outsiders against clan members. Sometimes, however, it seems like clan leaders feel they need to tip-toe around their clannies and not be "too harsh" because the minion might leave the clan.

Things that can be done as punishments for minions, rather than going to the death option:

-- Revoking privilege of leaving the city alone, for clans that normally allow this.
-- Revoking privilege of engaging in sparring practice.
-- Revoking promised bonuses or usual tips given for service.
-- Suspending salary.
-- Fining.
-- Confiscating clan-granted gear for a time.
-- Give extra chores, either virtual such as scrubbing floors, or real such as re-organizing storage space.
-- A virtual beating (emotes only), either alone or in front of clannies for extra humiliation.
-- A coded whipping.
-- Branding (virtual of course).
-- House arrest (confinement for a period of time to clan quarters).
-- Booting from the clan.
-- Exile from the city for a period of time (bribe your friendly local templar!).

Edited to add another thing or two.

[Desertman]

Yeah, definitely the victim for all these things needs to be subdued or unconscious.  Should also trigger a crim flag, so people don't go stabbing people in the eye for fun when someone passes out at the bar.

Maybe knocked out AND subdued, and in a fitting area, the way QUIT works now.

For example...

In a Tavern (N,S)

The blue-eyed man is inconciouss being held by the half-giant soldier here.

Forcefeed blue posion

Here? Find a more suitable place!

[LoD]

I've probably killed more people with one character (Bushman/Sandman) than all of the rest of the my characters put together over the last 18 years.  I'd say probably about 45 or so, maybe half of which where Synthesis and Cyrian20 desert elves.   Just kidding.

Rather than list reasons why I (the player) think people kill, I thought listing some of the reasons why my character killed might be an interesting perspective as well.

Bushman was a ex-Salarri slave that had been freed by the Blackmoon Raiders during an attack on one of their caravans.  He was given the opportunity to live and join their ranks, so he accepted.  He was one of their primary scouts, providers or food, and survivalist.  I would often move about the desert environment making small scale demands of loners I found out in the world - usually to the tune of 50 'sid.  I used this as an opportunity to recruit potential raiders, make contacts, and make a little money on the side.

Some of the reasons why I chose to kill the other player with Bushman were:

Byproduct of Raiding

• The person I was raiding decided they didn't want to give up 50 coins, so they attacked.
• The person I was raiding would spam flee from me every time I tried to initiate contact.  I usually made 3 attempts with escalating degrees of punishment should the PC auto-flee.
• The people we would raid thought they had better odds, or a chance of survival.
• Sometimes it was necessary to kill someone in order to make a point, or dissolve the will of a group to fight back.  I killed a Byn Sergeant once for that reason before we raided the group that was larger than we were.  We figured that with their leader cut down like a blade of grass, the rest of the group would be that much more submissive to our demands.  It helped that we'd already raided that Sergeant before and told him not to try and escape us in the future.

Revenge

• I killed a long-time Krathi because he had carried the severed head of one of our raider spies from Red Storm to Allanak to deliver it to the authorities.  I selected him out of the rest of the people involved as the target since he was the one that personally had disrespected Bushman's friend.  I found him outside of Allanak foraging for rocks one day and began a conversation with him.  I planned full well to kill him, but I wanted to have a chat about why first -- he got nervous and only managed a couple phrases before mounting up, at which point I attacked and pursued to finish the job.
• We caught up with Eldor in the grasslands east of Tuluk alone, my mullish war-chief and I.  He'd frequently hunted us on the roads with other Kadian hunters or local folks.  The mul had subdued him when we found him in the grasses, and we talked with him for awhile.  The war-chief demanded that he drop his weapons and beg for forgiveness.  Instead, he chose to attack and subsequently died.
• A relatively long-lived dwarven warrior had chased some of us along the road one day, and I happened to come across him sitting with a group of other dwarves just north of Allanak on the shield wall one day as I was tracking random people along the North Road.  I attacked him from range and managed to find him exhausted against the walls of Allanak.  I knocked him unconscious and drug him to the old fort that used to exist along the North Road, where I RP'd out cutting of his right arm as a punishment for chasing me.  I finished the job and then drug him outside onto the road for fate to determine his outcome.  Unfortunately, Zalanthas is not kind.

Racism/Hatred

• Probably the PK that I felt the worst about (as a player) was when I was riding through the rocky barrens southwest of Allanak and saw an elf sitting there, bleeding profusely.  Bushman hated elves, so h figured he'd just put the fellow out of his misery.  It wasn't personal, I didn't even know the guy.  He just shot him like he'd shoot a stray dog.  I felt guilty that I didn't give the guy a better death, but I guess sometimes crap just happens.
• There was a player coordinated elven tribe that all had golden eyes.  They always seemed to be after me after I'd raided some of them, so there became a long line of fights with golden-eyed elves based on those interactions.  This wasn't helped by the fact that Bushman hated elves in the first place, much less elves that would actively follow/taunt him.

Territorial Protection

• After Bushman and the Blackmoon had joined with the Rebellion, there were a few instances where people had encroached upon our camp.  Even though it was well concealed (and in an inventive way), there were times when Bushman killed out of fear of discovery.

It's difficult now to recall all of the encounters and outcomes during that period of time.  I know that I frequently had entirely peaceful and calm discussions with characters I found out in the wilderness along with raiding them.  Some paid their 50 'sid and we actually became friends while others chose simply to attack out of fear or hatred.

I know that sometimes killing the other PC felt good, whereas sometimes it felt bad.  Sometimes I was happy and excited at success, and other times I felt guilty or frustrated that the outcome didn't come out another way.

In the end though, I like to think that I acted as the character would act.  That the deaths he dealt were largely deserved and in line with the spirit of the Zalanthan world; gritty, dangerous, and merciless.  I often attempted to make the scene more than a string of coded responses, even if my plan was to kill the person from the very beginning of the scene (which probably happened only 10% of the time).

As long as other players are playing true to the character, keeping in line with the spirit of the game, and making attempts to create a story rather than end a life.  I'm down with death.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Nah, those things would all be more fun if the victim was awake, I think.  Also certainly law enforcement should be quite capable of publicly torturing someone.

[Desertman]

The Bushman raided my entire Byn unit once, by himself...mad props to you, mad props.

I loved that PC.

[spicemustflow]

Wait wait wait...

I think the problem here is when I said "Newbie Gear"...you guys thought I meant I went to buy "Starting Clothes".

I didnt mean..."Starting Clothes".

I do agree that would be some really bad form...

When I said "Newbie Gear"...I just meant basic cheap gear that can be bought from your local merchant.

The shit that most people buy when they start out, as in, not expensive stuff.

I didnt mean..."Bone studded backpack, Sandcloth Shirt, and Brown Pants".

I dont think anyone is argueing over the same issue here.

I can agree that using "Starting Gear" to fool raiders is very bad form, using "Newbie Gear" to luir raiders, is totally different.

By "Newbie Gear", I just meant gear that wasnt obviously bought because its looks "badass" and you can afford it because you have been alive a long time.

Newbie Gear to me is just basic commoner gear, sandcloth clothes of the cheap variety ect....What most commoners actually wear.

I misunderstood you then. Sorry.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It might be helpful if clan leaders were more often willing to take something away from clan members, as punishments. Often it seems like if a minion from one clan pisses off someone important in another clan, nothing ever gets done about the legitimate problem; no punishment is forthcoming. If clan leaders were more happy to mete out punishments, especially harsh ones, then perhaps death would be less frequently sought as a vengeance method by outsiders against clan members. Sometimes, however, it seems like clan leaders feel they need to tip-toe around their clannies and not be "too harsh" because the minion might leave the clan.

Things that can be done as punishments for minions, rather than going to the death option:

-- Revoking privilege of leaving the city alone, for clans that normally allow this.
-- Revoking privilege of engaging in sparring practice.
-- Revoking promised bonuses or usual tips given for service.
-- Suspending salary.
-- Fining.
-- Confiscating clan-granted gear for a time.
-- Give extra chores, either virtual such as scrubbing floors, or real such as re-organizing storage space.
-- A virtual beating (emotes only), either alone or in front of clannies for extra humiliation.
-- A coded whipping.
-- Branding (virtual of course).
-- House arrest (confinement for a period of time to clan quarters).
-- Booting from the clan.
-- Exile from the city for a period of time (bribe your friendly local templar!).

Edited to add another thing or two.

I beleive that I shall keep that in mind. This is an excellent suggestion, regarding leaders punishing their clannies.

[My 2 sids]

It might be helpful if clan leaders were more often willing to take something away from clan members, as punishments. Often it seems like if a minion from one clan pisses off someone important in another clan, nothing ever gets done about the legitimate problem; no punishment is forthcoming. If clan leaders were more happy to mete out punishments, especially harsh ones, then perhaps death would be less frequently sought as a vengeance method by outsiders against clan members. Sometimes, however, it seems like clan leaders feel they need to tip-toe around their clannies and not be "too harsh" because the minion might leave the clan.

Things that can be done as punishments for minions, rather than going to the death option:

-- Revoking privilege of leaving the city alone, for clans that normally allow this.
-- Revoking privilege of engaging in sparring practice.
-- Revoking promised bonuses or usual tips given for service.
-- Suspending salary.
-- Fining.
-- Confiscating clan-granted gear for a time.
-- Give extra chores, either virtual such as scrubbing floors, or real such as re-organizing storage space.
-- A virtual beating (emotes only), either alone or in front of clannies for extra humiliation.
-- A coded whipping.
-- Branding (virtual of course).
-- House arrest (confinement for a period of time to clan quarters).
-- Booting from the clan.
-- Exile from the city for a period of time (bribe your friendly local templar!).

Edited to add another thing or two.

All good, and don't forget enslaving.


Here's the thing... make it public.   One, it enforces the humilation  and two, it alerts other players to treat the PC accordingly.

[Delstro]

If you are the leader, make your minions hold the unruly one down while you use him as a punching bag.
Then threaten his life, and stab him in the leg, so he knows you mean business.

[Desertman]

I find this approach works best...when you hire them give them a line like...

"If you fuck me over, if you so much as look at me the wrong way when you get orders, I will gut you where you stand. Just so we understand one another from the get go."

Of course, I play a lot of Bynners, we do shit differently there.

[Gimfalisette]

All good, and don't forget enslaving.

Here's the thing... make it public.   One, it enforces the humilation  and two, it alerts other players to treat the PC accordingly.

I'd never go to enslaving unless I'd already tried pretty much everything on the list. Few players will be able to deal with the IC restrictions; enslavement isn't a punishment, it's actually a complete change of situation for their PC. Punishment implies that the PC may be able to learn from the situation and change, but enslavement is a final answer to the problem, much like death.

Also, I do not think that all punishments of minions should be public. It depends on the offense, the person offended, the situation overall, and the PC being punished. I've done beatings in private which were very effective punishments and changed the targeted behavior, and I've done whippings in public which were not effective and didn't cause change...all dependent on the PC. Some PCs are more sensitive, some learn better, some learn poorly.

I find this approach works best...when you hire them give them a line like...

"If you fuck me over, if you so much as look at me the wrong way when you get orders, I will gut you where you stand. Just so we understand one another from the get go."

Of course, I play a lot of Bynners, we do shit differently there.

So you always would choose to kill PCs for first offenses? Hmm.

[Marauder Moe]

I think that there are many players who would be willing to play out enslavement, maiming, or other punishment that severely affects their playability situation.  I think authority figures in the position to inflict such a punishment should inquire whether or not the PC in question is willing, proceed if so, or find an alternative (up to an including retirement/death) if not.

[Desertman]

So you always would choose to kill PCs for first offenses? Hmm.

Of course not, I didnt say I actually -did- gut them where they stood....But imagine this...

You are recruited by the Nice, Well-Mannered man.

or...

You are recruited by the Hateful, Threatened-to-gut-you-right-out-of-the-box man.

Which one are you less likely to fuck up with?

That being said, I never have killed a clannie underling for any offense come to think of it...

I did have one who came to quit, with 34 bowls of stew in his pack...

Now, what do you do in that situation?

Really?

I tell you what you do, you do math.

"So, a bowl of stew costs about 30 coins down at the Barrel...it would seem you now owe the Byn around 900 obsidian pieces, I'll take payment in full, now"

"But but but but,,,Sarge! I dont have 900 coins!"

"Thats fine clannie underling...thats just fine."


So, I stripped him naked, and threw him into the street...His gear wasnt worth 900 coins, but its the best I could do, and it taught him a lesson without killing him.



Or...

You have a clannie you catch outside, I actually showed some sympathy on the poor bastard the first time, I just told him if I ever caught him again, I would gut him for sure.

The very next RL day, my unit coming back from a contract walks up on him in the desert hunting...

*sigh*

What am I to do here? Really?

So, I take him back to the compound and lash him six or seven good times...And then throw him out.


...

The point is, you dont have to actually gut them on the first offense, but I always tell them I will. I want them to know without a doubt that if they mess up there WILL be IC consequences for messing up because I dont want a stream of OOC complaints going to the IMM's to the affect of..."He stripped me naked and threw me out!" or "He lashed me six times for just being outside of the gates!"...Instead they have the mindset..."Holy shit, I'm so thankful he didnt kill me and only lashed me."

Ironically, the guy with the bowls of stew who was naked ended up becoming enslaved within one RL day to a templar...so in a round about way, I sentenced him to slavery, sort of.

[Spoon]

I had a my elf assassin stab a human up for laughing in his face after I said I was going to kill them.

Stab stab stab. I think I'll call it: 'Spontaneous revenge'

[Synthesis]

I've probably killed more people with one character (Bushman/Sandman) than all of the rest of the my characters put together over the last 18 years.  I'd say probably about 45 or so, maybe half of which where Synthesis and Cyrian20 desert elves.   Just kidding.

He might be kidding, but he's also telling the truth.

[Marauder Moe]

I think the only time a character of mine really spontaneously (and successfully) killed (directly caused at least, though not having personally delivered the killing blow) another character was when some Bynner insulted a gemmer of mine, and then insulted his mate, and then challenged her to a duel outside the gates.  If I remember correctly, he followed them out, ended the whole thing before the guy even drew his blades, and then immediately turned to his mate (as though he'd just done nothing more significant than swatting a fly) and started arguing with her about how accepting a duel was a foolish risk (and she was upset with him for not letting her have a little sport).

Given the vulgarity of the insults and the fact that my character's mate was in danger, I felt that it was justified.

EDIT: Though... on second thought, I do wonder what would have happened if we'd simply stripped the guy and let him live.  It might have been an interesting and humiliating conversation with his sergeant, explaining that he lost his stuff because he insulted and tried to kill a gemmer's mate.  Damn, now I feel bad.