Why do we kill (ICly and OOCly)

[Forest Junkie]

Neither side is right. Those who prey on people wearing newbie clothing, as well as those who lure in the aforementioned twinks..both wrong, imo.

On topic:

I don't go ooc and kill just because I as the player wants to. Everytime I kill, there is a reason/motivation/method to my madness.

[FuSoYa]

I don't know.  I think there's a lot of logic behind it.  If he's got half a brain he knows that obsidian miners get hit by raiders often.  As a raider himself he knows they probably either carry valuables on them or something worth something.  So he sets up a fake hit and goes out there... throwing his cloak off and fighting back.

Sounds fucking like a good idea is what it does.

It's not OOC knowledge to know that raiders often hit obsidian miners.

Brandon

[Salt Merchant]

I do see a undercurrent of really wanting to pass a successful message or effect, and see references to turning to death as that message because other messages fail to be interpreted (or so it seems, since we can't always see why other characters decide things). Can we make the messages more clear to the victim? Are there ways the victim can better communicate (code or otherwise) why it seems the message is ignored, denied, or whatever (be it OOCly, or ICly).

I can give an example as a player and as a staff member.

Territory - As a player, belonging to a tribe or clan, territorially protective of a particular area. You come across interlopers, and interact. You warn them verbally, perhaps arrows into the room, perhaps even a simple beat down but without death intended. You do your best to communicate to them that, "they" shouldn't be here, and there are consequences. Sometimes there's a toll, but in some cases, they just aren't allowed. And after that, they continue to come back, because of whatever reasoning. (The area is poorly represented as patrolled or claimed, they ignore the message, they just don't fear you as a PC and you have no NPC backup, they don't fear death because it's just a new character, they think they can get away with it since you aren't around all the time, or whatever)

This repeated, ignored behavior can be many things as has been stated: theft, insubordination, insults, betrayal, law breaking, etc.

As staff, with regards to the territory example above, I've seen similar behavior, though usually it's in interactions with NPCs. Characters who constantly wade through sentient npcs such as gith, halflings, mantis, rinthis and others. For whatever justification and reasoning, they encroach about territory in which these cultures live with little regard to the theoretical but poorly represented consequences. Similarly, I'm faced with, how do I communicate a message to this effect, before choosing the option of death. One that will be heard, abided by to significant extent, instead of ignored because of whatever shortcoming (code, environment, IC, OOC, or otherwise). The cases are often different, a mantis eating you, vs a rinthi just wanting you off his corner, but I can see that it helps both players to understand the message was understood and of sufficient affect, which folks realize death is.

Simple... let the newly slain linger on for a moment, unable to do anything except watch.

That would give the killer time to perform a few emotes, like cuss the idiocy of the miner for looking at him, or pound a stake with the tribe's emblem into the ground next to the corpse, or whatever is needed to deliver the message.

Sort of the time between the deathblow and when the victim finally loses conciousness. Could even have a message indicating that to the killer... <x>'s eyes glaze over in death, at the same time the victim sees "Your vision goes black".... beep!

If for some reason speed is of the essence and the killer can't wait thirty seconds, behead would end the process early.

[Sokotra]

I hope you're just joking about this whole reverse-raiding thing...because you're coming across as a serious douchebag.  That's the kind of dumb shit I'd expect from Delerak.

Unless I missed something he said, I don't get what the big deal is.  The "master swordsman" comparison thing didn't make any sense to me.  From what I understand, it's just some guy that decides he's going to be a raider (or raid the raiders) and in order to do so he's going to hang out where he knows that raiders like to search for easy targets.  He pretends to be an easy target and gives the would-be raider a taste of his own medicine.  What's wrong with that?  That is real life - not some 'cheat code' in a video game.  I see no abuse there whatsoever and, with the scenario I just described, the Staff would have no problem - ask them.  Like I said, unless there is something I missed where something wrong is being done.  I didn't see anything.  In fact, in some situations the guy might actually be turning the tables on the "abusers" who think they can search for easy noobs to kill or whatever.

[Synthesis]

The worst twinks are always the ones who don't even realize they're being twinks.

If you can't figure this shit out yourself, there's no use trying to explain it to you.

[FuSoYa]

The worst twinks are always the ones who don't even realize they're being twinks.

If you can't figure this shit out yourself, there's no use trying to explain it to you.

And the worst posters are self-righteous ones who don't even care to discuss a thing and just dismiss it.  It's cool.  You know you're right and that's all that matters.

Brandon

[Sokotra]

The worst twinks are always the ones who don't even realize they're being twinks.

If you can't figure this shit out yourself, there's no use trying to explain it to you.

Lol.  I think you are just over sensitive or just like to argue.  You're wrong, sorry.    I've never used this tactic, anyhow.

Just because someone is wearing a disguise or fakes you out doesn't mean it is abuse.  I'm sure there are some situations where there could be abuse involved, but this doesn't look like one of them.  Don't get angry and just start throwing insults.  That won't get us anywhere unless you are just here to hear yourself talk rather than discuss things.

[Forest Junkie]

Guys, enough with this bickering.

It's -wrong- to dress up in newbie clothes to lure in twinks. As much as I sympathize, that doesn't make it right. Same goes for the twinks who prey on brand new pcs.

However, I see -nothing- wrong with doing a little acting. If your pc raids raiders, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to be a little naive and "trusting" so as to lull them into a false sense of security. I also see nothing wrong if you take off a few pieces of armor to give the illusion that you are weak or perhaps poorer/less experienced as a Zalanthan, not as a player controlling said marionette.

So, let's review:

Taking off armors and wearing less expensive clothing and/or cheap armors to give the illusion you are suitable prey is acceptable.

Using actual newbie gear to fool your prey into a false sense of OOC security is, naturally, making you no better than them.

Don't be a dick.

[Riev]

Taking off armors and wearing less expensive clothing and/or cheap armors to give the illusion you are suitable prey is acceptable.

Using actual newbie gear to fool your prey into a false sense of OOC security is, naturally, making you no better than them.

Don't be a dick.

QFT.

If you want to buy some ratty clothes from the 'rinth or something, I think thats one thing. Wearing Leather Newbie Boots and all the newbie-only armor, thats being a bit twink-ish and using the OOC knowledge that all newbies start with that equipment set as your basis. Sure, raiding newbies is wrong, but there might be reasons behind it. Thats the point of this thread, -why- you kill. Not -how- you do it. Jackers =)

[Sokotra]

There is no newbie gear in Zalanthas, just as there are no Newbie Training Zones and stuff like that.  But yeah, we all know what you start with when you first enter the game - so I guess you can call that newbie gear.  If you are attacking someone just because they have newbie gear on then you probably deserve what you get.  However, I'm not even sure that's what Desertman meant... because his actual quote was "put on relatively "newbie like" gear" which could just mean an average pair of pants and stuff.  Who cares?  So I can't put on a disguise as an average commoner now?  That is abuse?  Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.  Please help me understand how this is being a twink.  Even if you are wearing exact newbie gear, I would still have trouble calling that abuse - though I might call it bad form.  But you could be some special-apped were-tembo from the pits of suk-krath... you can never assume someone is a newb to begin with.

[Seeker]

I'm surprisingly on the "not-abuse" side of this one.  The classic newbie outfit is pretty much by definition the typical type of gear that a commoner of a particular region wears.  That is the standard we have collectively been instructed to accept.

Wearing typical clothing and gear of an average commoner is not abusive for any conceivable reason that I can imagine.


Seeker

[Forest Junkie]

It sure as hell is if you're doing it  due to OOC factors for the sole purpose of baiting raiders. It's bad form. It's -cheating-.

[Bebop]

I've killed quite a few PCs over the years, and it's slowly become clear that this is quite simply the smart thing to do.  -Every- time I've failed to kill someone, I've lived to regret it (unless an unrelated doom met me somewhere along the way).  Whether the PC managed to escape or I had mercy on them, when people live, they invariably involve others in the hunt for you, and while that may create some interesting conflict, 9 times out of 10, my (IC and OOC) goal is NOT simply to create conflict.  Killing you was a means to an end, and very often such ends are not attainable when the entire world is looking for you.

Unfortunately, with my last character I seem to have made this mistake.

It's very hard for me OOCly to determine when my character would and when I would just want to etc, etc, etc.  I have lost long lived characters to stupid, stupid reasons and it's very hard for me to decide when to gack someone.  Typically though, I dont' think mercy is appreciated.  I think people are bored and just waitin' to exact that revenge.  Instead of cowering off gratefully it just turns into a silly IC and sometimes even OOC conflict which results in mercy obtaining you death.  It's a very fine line, it can sometimes lead to a great plot, I know it has for me in the past.  I DEFINITELY think people should be selective in there killing.  Obviously if I am a Templar I am not going to walk in and pwn someone who looks at me the wrong way, at the same time if someone has involvement in something critical they've kind of brought it on their selves.  I'm rambling but I suppose my point is there takes an OOC amount of respect on both ends in regards to PKing.  Also I kind of agree with Synthesis though I am not condoning PKing everything with in your capability.   I guess I just think people should pay close attention on both ends as the PK'd and PKer.  If someone is exacting mercy on you for a legitimate reason, in game you should probably consider this instead of exacting revenge.  Also as the PKer you should be conscious of the situation and the be fully informed etc.  As IRL it is a very permanent circumstance and sometimes people have placed many hours of effort into their character.  If you must kill, I think you should try to be as creative as possible with the process as you can be and still exact your kill.

[spicemustflow]

So a genuine "experienced" raider goes into the harsh desert, in a gear that doesn't protect him from from the elements, beasts, and blades, and he thinks it's fine, even though everyone has heard grim stories about the dangerous sands? And sun. And other raiders. And wild necks. And so on.

Some people Zalanthans just need a bit of sandcloth and a skin of water.

And I don't see how his "reverse raiding" would be abuse.  That's silly.

Sometimes, you just have to consider the source.

What? Nobody who could afford anything better than "some sandcloth and a skin of water" would go into the desert so ill equipped, especially if they have some raiding in mind, which means they expect trouble. Conan can cross the sands only in loincloth and a sword, but try traveling like that further than the mining site and see what happens, will you? The fact that you know how many days you invested in your ranger or whatever and your faith in his approximate skills is completely OOC knowledge and luring people who prey on small fish is twinking. Newbie killers are even less of a twinks in this case. You are luring people into a trap and it's a trap that relies on OOC assumptions from both you and your victim, which makes it an extremely shitty one.

For example, a master assassin might disguise himself as a beggar or a shoe cleaner to avoid suspicion and make his victim underestimate him, but as he operates in the city, or even inside a building, he won't die from Krath's touch or be eaten by a raptor, while your raider-bait should have to be crazy to go out underprotected if he knows shit about where he's going.

And Desertman, you were saying something about name calling? Anyway, it's a game, man, enjoy yourself, just next time when you go out like that, I hope you meet a pack of extremely thirsty desert elves with a sandcloth fetish.

[jhunter]

Guys, enough with this bickering.

It's -wrong- to dress up in newbie clothes to lure in twinks. As much as I sympathize, that doesn't make it right. Same goes for the twinks who prey on brand new pcs.

However, I see -nothing- wrong with doing a little acting. If your pc raids raiders, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to be a little naive and "trusting" so as to lull them into a false sense of security. I also see nothing wrong if you take off a few pieces of armor to give the illusion that you are weak or perhaps poorer/less experienced as a Zalanthan, not as a player controlling said marionette.

So, let's review:

Taking off armors and wearing less expensive clothing and/or cheap armors to give the illusion you are suitable prey is acceptable.

Using actual newbie gear to fool your prey into a false sense of OOC security is, naturally, making you no better than them.

Don't be a dick.

I pretty much see it the same way. If you dress up in a less "warrior-like" outfit to bait in would-be raiders that's fine. Intentionally wearing the "I just got into the game newbie-gear" to bait people in OOCly is just as wrong as someone choosing to select you as a victim purely on the basis if your "newbie" outfit.

[Seeker]

No one, in this thread, ever claimed to intend to use the complete set of "newbie clothes" as a deliberate ruse.  We've had plenty of discussions about that topic before.  Here's a good one. http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,9869.msg97450.  I agree with Forest Junkie and Jhunter and most everyone else that that is bogus.

Desertman claimed his pc might

..put on relatively "newbie like" gear...

i.e. typical gear of the average commoner of the region. 

I still don't see why it is being so vehemently argued that this makes a player a cunt, an asshole and a cheater.  I don't see it, and I continue to disagree. 

Why is dressing up like an old lady to catch a purse-snatcher, if it is IC for someone's character to want to do so, abuse of the code?


Seeker
(I apologize for the continued derail)

[Xio]

Other than my char being ordered to do so, or their hand being forced, or they simply hit the other guy way too hard when they weren't 'really' trying to kill them, I tend to not kill people because its more fun to try and rp something out, and the whole 'I'll get you one day' usually ensures a band of ragtag (or professional) mercs coming for you at some point down the line. Who doesn't love an old fashion duel that's actually an ambush?

[spicemustflow]

No one, in this thread, ever claimed to intend to use the complete set of "newbie clothes" as a deliberate ruse.  We've had plenty of discussions about that topic before.  Here's a good one. http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,9869.msg97450.  I agree with Forest Junkie and Jhunter and most everyone else that that is bogus.

Desertman claimed his pc might

..put on relatively "newbie like" gear...

i.e. typical gear of the average commoner of the region. 

I still don't see why it is being so vehemently argued that this makes a player a cunt, an asshole and a cheater.  I don't see it, and I continue to disagree. 

Why is dressing up like an old lady to catch a purse-snatcher, if it is IC for someone's character to want to do so, abuse of the code?


Seeker
(I apologize for the continued derail)

Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

[Sokotra]

Who needs armor when your skin is leather?  Zalanthans are tough. 

[FuSoYa]

Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

So basically you are upset that someone isn't playing the game the way you want them to play it/feel is the right way to play it?  Personally I think you sound a bit bitter so I'm guessing you raided Desertman's PC or a PC that was stronger then you and got a taste of your own medicine.

Back to why we kill!

Brandon

[clanspecific]

xx

[Forest Junkie]

Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

So basically you are upset that someone isn't playing the game the way you want them to play it/feel is the right way to play it?  Personally I think you sound a bit bitter so I'm guessing you raided Desertman's PC or a PC that was stronger then you and got a taste of your own medicine.

Don't be ignorant. Perhaps he has a legitimate reason. I've only tried raiding in the past (read: around eight years ago) and it didn't work out well for me and my crew, because most victims autofled.

[spicemustflow]

Typical city dwelling commoner, that's the problem, if you live in Manaus, you don't go hunting into the rainforest in the same clothes you go about your house. But never mind, this is going nowhere.

So basically you are upset that someone isn't playing the game the way you want them to play it/feel is the right way to play it?  Personally I think you sound a bit bitter so I'm guessing you raided Desertman's PC or a PC that was stronger then you and got a taste of your own medicine.

Back to why we kill!

Brandon

I've never played a raider, and I'm completely okay with raiders who kill their victims. Danger, excitement and all that. But what he's doing is OOC fishing, not raiding. Just strikes me as odd that the same people who frown on backstabbing a rat are approving this.

[Rahnevyn]

Guys, please pull it back on topic.

[FuSoYa]

I've never played a raider, and I'm completely okay with raiders who kill their victims. Danger, excitement and all that. But what he's doing is OOC fishing, not raiding. Just strikes me as odd that the same people who frown on backstabbing a rat are approving this.

How is it OOC?  IC a person from Allanak or who had even been there for an extended amount of time would know that raiders often hit the miners outside.  So a person who was semi-intelligent and knew how raiders work might deduce from that a surprise attack... milling out with the throng of miners and raiding the raider.

Hell, I think it could even be as funny as Jaynestown from Firefly where the person might become an unexpected hero to the miners even though he's really just a ruthless bastard looking for some easy coin.

Anyways.  I'll quit posting on this part so as not to derail further.  If you desire you can hit me up in PMs.  Just wanted to get my point across.

Brandon