Why do we kill (ICly and OOCly)

[flurry]

Thinking back on reasons for my past characters:

--Imminent danger to an ally
--Duty
--Direct order
--Revenge for repeated thefts
--Revenge for attempted killing

Other reasons that almost brought my characters to that point:

--Jealousy
--To save an organization from bad leadership

[ale six]

One should also ask

Why do we kill (ICly and OOCly) without RP?
If we are no newbie

This is a really good question. I'd say:

- Because some players are afraid if they take time to RP, the other character will run away
- Because some players want to "win" by killing the other guy, even if it means there's no RP behind it
- Because some players would rather succeed in a kill with no emotes than fail an attempt with them

[Marauder Moe]

As brutal as this thread is, I really haven't seen a lot of excessive player killing in the last two years.  I think we've been pretty good about offering non-lethal alternatives when possible.

Your experience may vary, naturally.

[Desertman]

Am I the only one that does "reverse raiding"?

I play characters and beef them up....put on relatively "newbie like" gear, and then walk out to the local raiding grounds.

It usually plays out something like this...

Raider rides in, looks down at me sid hacking.

Raider player thinks..."Oh, newbie gear, I can pwn this guy and get what little he does have, leet."

Raider demands everything.

I spit on him, and generally insult him instead of handing over the uber gear I dont have. I guess they want my waterskin or something, *shrugs*.

Raider decides to use muscle and attack poor little newbie me....

After about thee rounds of combat, the player of raider thinks..."Oh shit, WTF is happening?"

I then track them down, and kill them, because they attacked me, and I now have an IC reason to get revenge.

Its called Reverse Raiding. Making yourself look like a easy victim, getting raiders to attack you, then using the IC excuse to "Raid" them, but since they tried to raid you first, you still get to be the good guy because you are only protecting yourself and getting revenge against the "Evil Raider".

Thats how you raid, and still get to RP being a good guy. Its useful, and fun.


To answer the question, I typically only kill other PC's, because its fun.

Ironically, I usually kill more PC's with good guy characters, than bad guy characters. Hunting down criminals, getting revenge against "Bad Guys", kill evil magickers, ect.

With my bad guys, I always feel bad about killing PC's, I might kill 1 in 20 that I raid, and usually only because they were stupid enough to type..."Look Raider".

Note to victims, your survival rate goes up about 600% if you just keep your eyes on the ground. Go ahead and try to run, you might get away, but regardless of if you run or fight, keep your eyes on the ground, because if you "Look Raider", and you end up losing, and getting caught, the raider kind of has an obligation to kill you then.

[Qzzrbl]

Note to victims, your survival rate goes up about 600% if you just keep your eyes on the ground. Go ahead and try to run, you might get away, but regardless of if you run or fight, keep your eyes on the ground, because if you "Look Raider", and you end up losing, and getting caught, the raider kind of has an obligation to kill you then.

'Tis true.



Erm, but looking back, I've found most of my few pkills were all about money. Whether the person I was killing had lots of it, or my character was being hired to do it.

[FuSoYa]

I must be one of the only people who hasn't ever killed anyone.  Weird...

Brandon

[najdorf]

Am I the only one that does "reverse raiding"?

You are not alone.

[Tisiphone]

Though I would say that SPECIFICALLY reverse raiding, i.e., going out of the gates with the intent of ganking some raiders, rather than simply using a Q-ship defense, is a bit...strange. After all, you should at least have a healthy respect for combat.

[ale six]

Though I would say that SPECIFICALLY reverse raiding, i.e., going out of the gates with the intent of ganking some raiders, rather than simply using a Q-ship defense, is a bit...strange. After all, you should at least have a healthy respect for combat.

Yeah, it is a bit strange. What sane person would leave the gates dressed like a commoner just so they can get attacked by someone and then kill them? I mean, why would anyone do that? If you're roleplaying someone who wants to rid the desert of raiders, I suppose it might be fine, but...... honestly, the way you described it seems more OOCly motivated than ICly to me.

[Malken]

The problem with that is that you expect the raider to use hand to hand weapons against you, because that's the way to go, code-wise.. But in reality, any smart raiders would just hold you at arrow-point and keep his bow leveled at your chest while you drop your bags and pack and slowly back away.. In game, you know that this isn't going to happen.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

(I think I've just summoned PF)

[Tisiphone]

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

Because there's no 'approach' code.

(I think I've just summoned PF)

He got twitted, you're okay.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

FuSoYa wrote:

I must be one of the only people who hasn't ever killed anyone.  Weird...

Haha, definitely not. I've never killed another PC, in all my years in playing. Sometimes it was just because I wasn't quick enough on the draw, but for the most part, I never had a reason to. And I've played templars, 'gickers, and cold gangbanger 'Rinthi thugs.
I'm not adverse to killing, as my previous posts should make clear. If you'd kill an NPC for it, you should kill a PC for it. But I find that you rarely, rarely actually need to kill somebody. 7DV has a very good point about certain punishments not working well due to lack of coded support, but I can think of plenty of non-lethal punishments for enemies.
For politcal types, you could attempt to humiliate your enemy. Or you could try to hedge him out, steal clients or allies from him, and form a political alliance against him.
Exile also works very well. It's almost as good as death, and will keep the bad blood out of your little corner of the world.
If you're an evil magicker, you can always take the James Bond villain route. Don't kill your enemy, just leave him in a potentially deadly situation. I remember hearing an account in-game about a guy who attacked by a powerful sorceror. The sorceror incapacitated him with a spell, then summoned a monster to eat him. This allowed the sorceror to re-join the rest of the battle, leaving his victim to his fate. Amazingly, one of the victim's allies came and killed the monster, allowing the victim to recover.
While this could be considered ostensibly stupid or cocky on the defiler's part, you have to admit, it must have been absolutely awesome for the victim involved. Can you imagine the terror, the heart-pounding adrenaline as you watch your character get slowly eaten by a magickal monster? It might loose points in practicality, but it gains big points in sadism and theatricality.
Think outside of the coffin, people.

[Desertman]

lol

I didnt say I sat there with my character IC'ly thinking..."I want to go reverse raid someone, let me put on these newbie clothes".

I just never change out of them lol.

To my pc, clothes are clothes.

Do I have the OOC thoughts..."Lets go reverse raid someone"...sure, but IC'ly, I am just going sid hacking in my comfortable sandcloth clothing.

*shrugs*

The big appeal to reverse raiding to me is, it kind of OOC'ly kicks the raider in the testicles for assuming something about a PC based completely on thier OOC knowledge of gear.

If I was wearing a full set special desc sandcloth gear and wearing my sid swords on my belt, that raider would think OOC'ly..."Ok, they have been in game a while, I will pass them by"...But because I am wearing standard regular sdesc sandcloth gear and the same swords the raider thinks..."Oh cool, he is wearing what I KNOW is typical newbie gear, he hasnt been in game long, I will raid him."

I bet they fucking think twice before using that OOC knowledge to raid someone again right?

Well, probably not, but alteast I got a good laugh out of watching thier "Oh shit" moment unfold.

[jhunter]

If I was wearing a full set special desc sandcloth gear and wearing my sid swords on my belt, that raider would think OOC'ly..."Ok, they have been in game a while, I will pass them by"...But because I am wearing standard regular sdesc sandcloth gear and the same swords the raider thinks..."Oh cool, he is wearing what I KNOW is typical newbie gear, he hasnt been in game long, I will raid him."

I've never had this mentality with a raider. My pc might be more cautious because they appear more well-equipped but they certainly will not pass them by on the basis of their clothing/gear. That's just plain OOC.

[Desertman]

Actually the best part is they actually sit there and let me kick thier ass for a while...

I know the player is thinking..."WTF? Well, I will give it a minute to see if they just got really good rolls to start....*A few more rounds of combat pass, they are still losing horribly*...Holy crap, this newbie must have all AI stats, why is my sword flying away? Oh man....*Beep, Mantis Head*"

Its like they just refuse to flee, the shock gets them, and they sit there knowing that the combat is going to turn back around in a minute, because I am a newbie, they will usually stay right up until the moment of, or fully until death, thinking "I know I can beat this newbie, whats going on?"

Dont judge people based on your OOC knowledge of what gear they have.

I will have a really long lived pc that never changed out of gear that cost over 20 sids.

[Desertman]

If I was wearing a full set special desc sandcloth gear and wearing my sid swords on my belt, that raider would think OOC'ly..."Ok, they have been in game a while, I will pass them by"...But because I am wearing standard regular sdesc sandcloth gear and the same swords the raider thinks..."Oh cool, he is wearing what I KNOW is typical newbie gear, he hasnt been in game long, I will raid him."

I've never had this mentality with a raider. My pc might be more cautious because they appear more well-equipped but they certainly will not pass them by on the basis of their clothing/gear. That's just plain OOC.

I agree, with my raiders, the better the gear, the more likely I am to attack them. My pc will think..."Score, this guy is definantly worth raiding"...sure I might be thinking..."Set alias to flee, just incase"...but IC'ly, its how it should be, more of an incentive to raid.

[Gimfalisette]

I remember hearing an account in-game about a guy who attacked by a powerful sorceror. The sorceror incapacitated him with a spell, then summoned a monster to eat him. This allowed the sorceror to re-join the rest of the battle, leaving his victim to his fate. Amazingly, one of the victim's allies came and killed the monster, allowing the victim to recover.

Man, unless this also happened to someone else, it's me that this happened to. Someday I'll tell y'all how the story really happened (the details aren't quite right), or post a log. It was very funny.

[Tisiphone]

I remember hearing an account in-game about a guy who attacked by a powerful sorceror. The sorceror incapacitated him with a spell, then summoned a monster to eat him. This allowed the sorceror to re-join the rest of the battle, leaving his victim to his fate. Amazingly, one of the victim's allies came and killed the monster, allowing the victim to recover.

Man, unless this also happened to someone else, it's me that this happened to. Someday I'll tell y'all how the story really happened (the details aren't quite right), or post a log. It was very funny.

Hey, I think I know this story.

[Yokunama]

--Racism

[number13]

I'm digging the James Bond villain approach. Just off the top of my head I can think of a handful of predicaments one could leave an unconscious character in, as a an alternative to death or dismemberment.

[Gimfalisette]

I'm digging the James Bond villain approach. Just off the top of my head I can a handful of predicaments one could leave an unconscious character in, as a an alternative to death or dismemberment.

As long as it's truly an alternative. Just to clarify about the story a little, the sorceror was imm-animated, and the leaving my PC to get nearly eaten by a beast was accidental, not intentional. The imm(s) in charge weren't attempting to put my PC into a certainly-fatal position, even though that's nearly how it worked out.

Twice.

(Yeah, almost the same exact thing happened to that PC a few weeks later, too!)

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't you, Gimf. The sorc was another player, I'm 99% certain,  and the James Bond villain style was intentional.
I don't know, I just thought it was a fun idea, and something I'd definitely do if I was an all-powerful defiler.

[Dakurus]

I do see a undercurrent of really wanting to pass a successful message or effect, and see references to turning to death as that message because other messages fail to be interpreted (or so it seems, since we can't always see why other characters decide things). Can we make the messages more clear to the victim? Are there ways the victim can better communicate (code or otherwise) why it seems the message is ignored, denied, or whatever (be it OOCly, or ICly).

I can give an example as a player and as a staff member.

Territory - As a player, belonging to a tribe or clan, territorially protective of a particular area. You come across interlopers, and interact. You warn them verbally, perhaps arrows into the room, perhaps even a simple beat down but without death intended. You do your best to communicate to them that, "they" shouldn't be here, and there are consequences. Sometimes there's a toll, but in some cases, they just aren't allowed. And after that, they continue to come back, because of whatever reasoning. (The area is poorly represented as patrolled or claimed, they ignore the message, they just don't fear you as a PC and you have no NPC backup, they don't fear death because it's just a new character, they think they can get away with it since you aren't around all the time, or whatever)

This repeated, ignored behavior can be many things as has been stated: theft, insubordination, insults, betrayal, law breaking, etc.

As staff, with regards to the territory example above, I've seen similar behavior, though usually it's in interactions with NPCs. Characters who constantly wade through sentient npcs such as gith, halflings, mantis, rinthis and others. For whatever justification and reasoning, they encroach about territory in which these cultures live with little regard to the theoretical but poorly represented consequences. Similarly, I'm faced with, how do I communicate a message to this effect, before choosing the option of death. One that will be heard, abided by to significant extent, instead of ignored because of whatever shortcoming (code, environment, IC, OOC, or otherwise). The cases are often different, a mantis eating you, vs a rinthi just wanting you off his corner, but I can see that it helps both players to understand the message was understood and of sufficient affect, which folks realize death is.

[spicemustflow]

Desertman, you're an asshole and your reverse raiding reeks of abuse.

[a strange shadow]

Dakurus did a great job of that with the gith mesa and a certain era of Kuraci.

Maybe some players just don't stop to think long enough to 'get it'.