Why 'gickers are players' preferred guilds

[Gimfalisette]

I've been wanting to make some points on this matter for a while, and some recent ranting on "omg people took their karma back" on another thread ( http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31227.500.html ) is bringing it up again. Please note that this thread is not for complaining about how many magicker characters there are; yes, we all know there are a lot, and certainly more than the documents on magick being "rare" would seem to indicate. The question is, why is this so? Why do PCs who have the karma to do so apparently preferentially choose to play magicker guilds, over playing mundanes?

The problem we usually get into here on the GDB is that we want people's choice of what guild to play to be a moral decision--as if it makes one a better person to play mundanes, or to play Amos types. We collectively seem to want to believe that we're better players, or care about the game more, if we are toiling away in the "mundane trenches." People will loudly declare that they NEVER play apped leader characters (it being assumed that apped leaders have all kinds of huge advantages and are massively coddled by the imms), or that they NEVER play non-mundanes (because it's so much tougher and gritty and harsh to play mundanes).

But the choice of guild is NOT a moral or ethical question. Personally, I've seen truly awesome players (those who really strive to contribute to the game world and don't use their guild as a PK-win card) in non-mundane roles; crappy players (those who don't give a fuck about the game world and are mostly out to PK or profit themselves) in non-mundane roles; and the same for mundane roles and apped leader roles, too. Choosing to play a magicker character does not indicate that the player is morally weak, uncaring about the game, or selfish. In converse, choosing to play a mundane does not indicate that the player is some kind of OOC hero.

So why DO players choose to play non-mundane guilds? Especially those who seem to mostly play non-mundanes? I think there are a handful of reasons that are "morally" neutral and really make sense from the standpoint of human nature. These are system issues; places where the system of ARM has broken down to produce an undesirable effect. I'll list them in what I see as most influential to least influential:

1. Magicker guilds advance and branch skills more quickly than mundanes, and achievement is a powerful motivator to the majority of players. The easier advancement of magicker guilds is not IC info, we've discussed this many times on these forums. This was a purposeful design decision by the imms a few years ago. I'm not interested in debating the right or wrong of this, what I want to do is look at how this interacts with human nature.

The majority of players enjoy coded skill advancement very much, and improving a skill or branching a skill brings a very concrete feeling of accomplishment. Let's be honest about it--when you're playing a warrior, skill advancement feels like walking through quicksand. Although it can be rewarding over the very long term to play any of the mundane guilds and really improve, if what a player wants is a quick feeling of advancement and accomplishment, then playing mundanes is NOT how to get that. It's like the difference between playing WoW and some of its competitor MMOs; WoW wouldn't be nearly so popular if leveling up were much slower.

I'm pretty convinced that if we wanted to encourage players to choose to play mundanes, we'd have to make advancing and branching skills in these guilds much more entertaining. Currently, it's often just a drag to do, and far more dangerous than the methods by which a magicker can advance skills. And it's no surprise to me that players would want to avoid that skill-slog and the associated danger, and instead play magickers.

2. Players want to feel like they will have a chance to participate in a meaningful way in the big plots of the game. Anyone who's been playing for a while and been involved in major plots will have observed that they are mostly supernatural in nature. And, well, when it comes to supernatural stuff, it's no surprise that magickers are just more useful than mundanes are. From the standpoint of human nature, who the fuck wants to be left on the sidelines just because they aren't equipped with the right guild for the job?

Again, if we want to encourage players to choose to play mundanes, we have to collectively create plots that are mundane in nature and big enough to be interesting and involving to many. And leaders must choose more frequently to engage mundanes in their plots in meaningful ways, rather than going the easy way and just using the nearest non-mundane.

3. Players get tired of playing the same old guilds all the time, and want to try new things. There are only 6 non-karma guilds; that's not really a lot of options. Players like to practice with different skills, try out new areas of the game, discover cool IC stuff. When you've played a warrior a few times, and a ranger a few times, and an assassin a few times, and a merchant a few times...it's completely inevitable that you'll want to try out some other guilds.

I think the only solution to this is more and better plots that use mundanes. In 2.ARM, with a different class system, this issue may be mitigated. But until then, we just need to be collectively more creative about our plots and character concepts.

4. Players want to feel special and different. This is pretty basic human nature. Not everyone gets off on playing yet another Amos. There are plenty of players who want special items, cool unique loot stuff, to be important, to get put on the history page, to achieve crazy supernatural IC stuff, to be the best warrior in the world, etc. In fact, I'd wager this desire affects every one of us. Playing a magicker or other non-mundane is an easy way to show off karma or an approved special app. If playing in Allanak, it makes one immediately desired by the templarate and/or other organizations.

The only way to mitigate this is, ultimately, to make most karma guilds feel non-special, or only as special as mundane guilds. I'm somewhat hoping that this is what happens in 2.ARM, with wider acceptance of magickers.


I think if we can come to better understand why players disproportionately (from the standpoint of the docs and player population both) choose to play karma guilds, then we can talk about how players can be encouraged to play mundane guilds more frequently as well. But again, it's not a MORAL question. It's simply human nature behind these phenomena, nothing more.

[Lakota]

I think you're reading way, way, way too much into this.

Some players have been here upwards of ten years. Perhaps they've played tons of rangers, warriors, assassins, etc. and are playing mages currently? So what if there are alot of mages in the game right now?

Also, I don't understand how making mages feel "non-special" will help anything. I'm -very- interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter. Will you please elaborate?

Nothing needs to be balanced out, or tweaked, or nerfed (magickers have already taken their shots).  Frankly, I don't think anything needs to be fixed. This is a game that we all purportedly play for fun, so let people play whats fun for them, hrm?

You also speak of players creating new plots for mundanes, but this is an issue I think really warrants no discussion on an OOC forum. Let things play out IC, eh? If a mundane pc wants to push forward a plot, they will.

All this conjecturing is really just hot air, in my opinion.

[Elgiva]

Perhaps people play magickers simply because concept of magickers on Armageddon is itself interesting to play?

PS. (not necessary only about OP, but about this issue in general) I am getting terrible tired of post about "we have too many magickers" and "we don't want it". Not because I disagree or want you to like it. Simply because constant whinning about this issue has to be quite uncomfortable for people who actually play magickers for this or that reason. Apparently, even people who asked to have karma removed first asked to get it back to play magickers. Apparently, people just -want- to play them sometime. Do we have to speak about it again and again?

All the time I hear how number of PC magickers contradicts docs. It doesn't. How many players currently play magickers says nothing about docs similary as lack of PC slaves doesn't mean docs are wrong in number of slaves in cities. You see too much Gemmers? Come on, they have whole -quarter- in Allanak. Number of NPCs, number of buildings and size of the quarter really doesn't indicate there is just a handful of magickers in whole Nak.

EDITed to clarify.

[FuSoYa]

Just throwing out some thoughts after reading it though I don't exactly disagree Gimf, it might sound like it.  Anyways... this is what I get for having to much free time on the computer at work.

1. Magicker guilds advance and branch skills more quickly than mundanes, and achievement is a powerful motivator to the majority of players.

This is definitely a factor I'm sure and yes, we all do love to branch skills but I don't it's that big a deal. At least for me it's more about playing the character then it is the guild.  Don't get me wrong, the guild is HUGE... but I'm not choosing one over another because I get more skills or skills more quickly.

Also I'm inclined to say if it en't broke don't fix it.  I know many people will say it is.. but truly, it's pretty much fine the way it is now.  I would love to see some extra skills in my mundane classes but I don't think it's a make or break deal.

2. Players want to feel like they will have a chance to participate in a meaningful way in the big plots of the game.

I'm not sure what to say other then mundanes and magickers both have the chance to participate in plots.  I mean, yes there have been some instances where 'gickers came through and the mundanes stood on the sidelines but then again if you ask me I don't consider the gith battles and whatnot a PLOT so much as it was an HRPT/RPT.  Plots are going on all the time, big or little, and I feel if you nudge your way into one or just play your character as you will everyone has a fair chance of getting sucked in at some point.

And leaders must choose more frequently to engage mundanes in their plots in meaningful ways, rather than going the easy way and just using the nearest non-mundane.

Uhmm... at least I know from the leadership positions I've played I don't really seek out non-mundanes to do my dirty work.  Perhaps that's a clan issue more then a leader/player one.

3. Players get tired of playing the same old guilds all the time, and want to try new things.

I agree with this.  Still not quite sure of the problem though.

4. Players want to feel special and different.

I don't think one has to play a special app, a sponsored role, or a karma race/guild to feel special and different.  At the end of the day it's about having fun though, not about what spells you can cast.

I think things are pretty good right now but perhaps that's just me.  I like Zalanthas and like the people I play with for the most part.  

These are just some thoughts.

Brandon

[staggerlee]

I think you're reading way, way, way too much into this.

Some players have been here upwards of ten years. Perhaps they've played tons of rangers, warriors, assassins, etc. and are playing mages currently? So what if there are alot of mages in the game right now?

Actually she addressed that.  Players do try them once they're getting sick of mundanes, it happens and isn't necessarily a problem.

Also, I don't understand how making mages feel "non-special" will help anything. I'm -very- interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter. Will you please elaborate?

Mundanes and magickers can be special simultaneously, they just need to be special in different ways.

You also speak of players creating new plots for mundanes, but this is an issue I think really warrants no discussion on an OOC forum. Let things play out IC, eh? If a mundane pc wants to push forward a plot, they will.

There are lots of player run plots that feature mundanes.  I think she was probably addressing larger staff run plots in that case.



All in all, I agree with the assessment.  And I plan to play a magicker at some point.  I think I prefer mundane types for reasons of play style, but I'd like to at least try one.  I'm pretty sure I can do a good job, but I'd rather everyone not assume I'm a terrible rper the moment I play one, based on my class choice.

It's actually a surprisingly hard problem to solve, because I think that gimf's analysis nails a lot of the reasons for their popularity. As long as they're secretive, powerful and cool people will want to play them. It is a game after all.  Maybe that isn't such a bad thing, and to some extent is something that we have to accept.   Take some steps to limit their population, but you can't deny access to  them too much, this isn't really supposed to be a lifestyle so much as a casual escape or hobby.

[Malken]

Wow, I don't think she's so wrong about it, I was just pondering earlier retiring my long lived character, because I find myself seeking #1, #2, #3, and er, #4 from her list more and more and my current mundane character is just not doing this for me, anymore, as proud as I am of playing him and how much I like him, once in a little while

I love my current character, but I'm feeling more and more like I could get the same sort of roleplay from a generic chatroom, and for me, it seems like something 'special' would make me feel like I'm playing a mud again more than a chatroom roleplay.

[Is Friday]

Perhaps people play magickers simply because concept of magickers on Armageddon is itself interesting to play?

I know this is the only reason why I've played magickers.

[Synthesis]

I would add to this:

When you're playing an obvious special application character or a karma-required guild, other players treat you much, much better.

For instance, when my rogue magickers get caught and killed by the templarate, I usually get a nice, drawn-out, well-emoted scene with some effort put into it that's worth the while.  Pickpockets and burglars? Brief interrogation, few cursory emotes, and an execution. The same thing goes with ordinary characters:  show up with obvious magickal effects on, and pretty soon everyone is upping their game, emoting like crazy.  Just showing up doesn't cut it.

Further, it extends to how other characters treat your character in confrontations.  If you're perceived as some ordinary Joe, people have a much higher tendency to behave badly and stretch the limits of IC believability...if they know you're a magicker, when you emote being atop a distant dune, they'll (usually) respect that shit and not try to sap you out of the blue.

[Lakota]

Mundanes and magickers can be special simultaneously, they just need to be special in different ways.

I agree. My favorite role to this date was playing a Jihaen. My second favorite was a magicker. I love them both -almost- equally, with the Jihaen getting the edge. However, I loved them both for different reasons.

What I don't get is this notion that we somehow should lower magickers in order to bring a balance between the mundanes and non-mundanes. I find this preposterous.

There are lots of player run plots that feature mundanes.  I think she was probably addressing larger staff run plots in that case.

Why should the staff be responsible for plots? They're here to facilitate and moderate, not hold our hands. They're proctors, so I think we should let them stay out of player affairs as much as possible and help guide our plots along when npc/immeraction is needed.

Most plots in the game are run by players.

If anyone's pissed at the fact that the majority of major plots are magickal in nature, perhaps you should consider the fact that Zalanthas is ruled by sorceror kings, defilers, and a big fucking dragon. Sorry, but a ranger with max scan just isn't going to push a plot along that deals with sorcery and juujuu. If anything, the overbearing sense of magick in the world will only increase as the game draws to a close. That's because the end is nigh, and in all probability, some cataclysmic event, more likely than not magickal in nature, will destroy everything. By all means, run your mundane plots. All the magick in the game certainly isn't stopping me from pursuing MY own mundane goals.

Take some steps to limit their population, but you can't deny access to  them too much, this isn't really supposed to be a lifestyle so much as a casual escape or hobby.

I would have absolutely no problem with karma being used up in increments before slowly regenerating over the course of a few months. I've been a proponent for this in the past, and think it has the potential to help the game. That being said, I don't think we'll see this any time soon.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

None of those reasons apply to me. I play magickers because I just plain love magick. I play wizards and necromancers and the like in every fantasy game I pick up.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there's other motivations that you're not including. Some of just simply love magick-based RP. A portion of the playerbase will still prefer magickers, regardless of the coded powers and restrictions applied to them.

[Dalmeth]

1. Magicker guilds advance and branch skills more quickly than mundanes, and achievement is a powerful motivator to the majority of players.

2. Players want to feel like they will have a chance to participate in a meaningful way in the big plots of the game.

3. Players get tired of playing the same old guilds all the time, and want to try new things.

4. Players want to feel special and different.

I think most of this can be summed up in saying that magickers are easier/quicker/more time efficient.

Time efficiency is the key.  I like non-magickers (I hate the term mundanes) because they're hard.  They can't go up to something and blast it.  They have to wait, they have to plan, and too often, they have to back off and try again when things go wrong.  When going up against magickers with non, it's like a game of cat and mouse.  The mouse has a chainsaw, and the cat has an orbital laser cannon.   If the mouse gets to the cat, the chainsaw is going to turn it into little kitty bits, but if the cat ever trains that orbital laser cannon on the mouse, it's toast.  So the mouse has to devote a lot more time and patience to killing the cat.

Let's just face it, this is a game.  If people can devote less time to tedious tasks, they'll do it.  Magickers can flit all over the world at minimal expense and drastically reduced time compared to those who have to foot it or ride.  Why wouldn't people want that?  It gives them more time to interact and do something they'll actually enjoy.

Personally, I'd enjoy the trip, but then I'm an odd one.

[Gimfalisette]

I am getting terrible tired of post about "we have too many magickers" and "we don't want it". Not because I disagree or want you to like it. Simply because constant whinning about this issue has to be quite uncomfortable for people who actually play magickers for this or that reason. Apparently, even people who asked to have karma removed first asked to get it back to play magickers. Apparently, people just -want- to play them sometime. Do we have to speak about it again and again?

I believe that you misread my post. I have the impression that you're not a native speaker of English, so let me try to re-state my main point. Very often, on these forums, when we are arguing about mundanes and magickers, players attempt to categorize those who choose to play magickers as if this is a MORAL (ethical) choice; the choice to play a non-mundane is stigmatized. Those who choose to play magickers are "bad" players and deserve to be PKed because they are "bad" for the game.

However, I very strongly believe that this choice is not moral or ethical at all, but rather can be explained by the interaction of the particular guild system of ARM and basic human nature. The problem lies in the system, not in the moral failings of the players.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there's other motivations that you're not including. Some of just simply love magick-based RP.

This is not a system issue, therefore there's no reason to discuss it. A personal preference based on actual love of magick lore-type-stuff does not need nor would it accept correction.

If anyone's pissed at the fact...

Lakota, chill and re-read. This is not about being pissed. It's about identifying rational reasons behind observed group behaviors.

[Gimfalisette]

That's all very interesting and kind of saddening. So it would seem that we collectively demonize the players of non-mundanes on the forums, yet treat them better in game?

[Malken]

Let's just face it, this is a game.  If people can devote less time to tedious tasks, they'll do it.  Magickers can flit all over the world at minimal expense and drastically reduced time compared to those who have to foot it or ride.  Why wouldn't people want that?  It gives them more time to interact and do something they'll actually enjoy.

Personally, I'd enjoy the trip, but then I'm an odd one.

Exactly, if I'm playing a Merchant class and it takes me months to even have the chance at the smallest of wagons, or if it takes me months, if not YEARS of play to have my own shop, with absolutely nothing to spend your money on once your bank account reaches 10000+ (which is quite easy as a merchant), and that at some point you just realize that you're playing "Waiting for others to log on" because you can't do any of the exciting things all of your buddies are doing, then you can see why I would be tempted to go and play a magicker, where I'll be *doing awesome spell #1* and *awesome spell #2* after only weeks, if not days, of playtime and be involved in the coolest of plots.

[Lakota]

I've never noticed players upping the ante when a magicker is about. The level of rp usually stays about the same, and is very consistent in my opinion.

The only time I see this happen is when an npc gets animated.  

[Elgiva]

I am getting terrible tired of post about "we have too many magickers" and "we don't want it". Not because I disagree or want you to like it. Simply because constant whinning about this issue has to be quite uncomfortable for people who actually play magickers for this or that reason. Apparently, even people who asked to have karma removed first asked to get it back to play magickers. Apparently, people just -want- to play them sometime. Do we have to speak about it again and again?

I believe that you misread my post. I have the impression that you're not a native speaker of English, so let me try to re-state my main point. Very often, on these forums, when we are arguing about mundanes and magickers, players attempt to categorize those who choose to play magickers as if this is a MORAL (ethical) choice; the choice to play a non-mundane is stigmatized. Those who choose to play magickers are "bad" players and deserve to be PKed because they are "bad" for the game.

However, I very strongly believe that this choice is not moral or ethical at all, but rather can be explained by the interaction of the particular guild system of ARM and basic human nature. The problem lies in the system, not in the moral failings of the players.

I don't think I misunderstood. I wanted to point out that IMHO the main reason is that people want to play an interesting concept (which is a reason your post doesn't mention and is IMHO main reason for many players). I added my opinion about whole issue simply because I am really getting tired of this issue discussed over and over - I'm sorry it sounded as if I am talking just about your post and I edited my previous to point out I meant discussions about "Many People Play Magickers" in general.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Synthesis wrote:

When you're playing an obvious special application character or a karma-required guild, other players treat you much, much better.

I've never noticed that, and I've played a lot of special apps and karma roles. In fact, I noticed pretty much the opposite; people are eager to kill you quickly, with little to no emotes or communication, because they perceive you as more dangerous (I'm assuming).
I'm just saying, our experiences clearly differ. Anecdotal evidence is shoddy evidence.

[Gimfalisette]

I don't think I misunderstood. I wanted to point out that IMHO the main reason is that people want to play an interesting concept (which is a reason your post doesn't mention and is IMHO main reason for many players).

OK. I'm sure it's true that that is ONE reason people play magickers; they just have a particular concept or like magick. However, it is not any reason that I have ever played a magicker or been drawn to play a magicker. Nor is it the reason I have observed many other people stating, e.g. Malken.

If you don't want to discuss topics like this, you're not required to do so. However, I am also not required to not post or discuss, just because you are tired of a topic

[Fathi]

The main reason I played my last magicker character was because:

1. I wanted to try out a fun new guild I'd never played before!

And...

2. I want to try out as many of my concepts for Arm 1 that I'm pretty sure I won't be able to do in Arm 2. I've got a good deal of confidence that the new game will still let me play most, if not all, of my mundane ideas, but I wanted to try out some of the non-mundane ideas just in case the structure of mages is so radically different in the new game that I couldn't end up playing the concept I wanted.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree. Excitement and progression in both skills and plots for mundanes and magickers should be the same. Isn't that your key point here?

[Tallulah]

People who just get new karma are usually anxious to try out something new they've never played before.

[Gimfalisette]

I agree. Excitement and progression in both skills and plots for mundanes and magickers should be the same. Isn't that your key point here?

That's definitely one of the key points. It's human nature to go where the "sugar" is. We can't change human nature through any amount of yelling at each other on the forums; so instead, we should work with human nature so that the system produces the desired outcomes. Currently, we have a system that is tuned to produce many non-mundanes.

[Desertman]

Magickers are for posers. Srsly.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I have to admit, I've been actively avoiding playing a magicker, no matter how much I want to, because I feel like all the mundane players are going to see me and go, "Oh God, not another magicker here to ruin our atmosphere."  Personally, I'm not bothered at all by the current amount of magickers--I just don't want to add to it because I honestly feel like I'd be inconveniencing a good portion of our playerbase by doing so.

I don't really like that feeling, but what can I do?

[Armaddict]

My opinion is that #1 and #2 are the big ones.

As far as #1 goes...first off, not only do they develop faster, but they end up more than capable of taking out almost anyone.  ALMOST (it's there, yes, they can be beaten.).  Speaking even from a non-playerkilling perspective (yes, there are plenty of mages who don't pkill), they are vastly more powerful than the average and even above average mundane.

This is how it's intended.  However, this is also why it becomes a problem when there are too many.  It changes the status quo.

#2 -  This is huge.  Plotlines run by players in particular seem almost dependent on mages.  Mundanes, in many scenarios, become almost like tag-alongs.  Plots are routinely -based- around the presence of mages, and the mundanes become little more than glorified bodyguards.  I've seen it many...many...many times, and when trying to show the displeasure that most common folk would likely feel at that, was harassed and looked down on.  Multiple characters were treated in this way by multiple other characters.
        Not only that, but as a leader PC, a noble to be more precise...I actively tried discouraging the use of mages over mundanes.  I didn't rule it out, but tried to keep it low profile...and was scoffed at, ignored, and 'corrected' by templars running missions.

As long as mages are plentiful, powerful, and carrying no social drawback in their use...I'll always gripe about it.