Magick vs. Units

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There are some spells that effect NPCs and PCs in ways other than HP lose. I don't think that these spells should work on any NPC that is a unit. For the same amount of effort, a mage is effecting 10-20 or more NPCs/VNPCs in the same way a single NPC or PC is effected.

This has crossed my mind after reading a log about an event a while back. I think damaging thse NPCs is just fine - but doing other things that do not have to do with HP lose just doesn't seem too realistic, unless the attacker's mana or stun is drained properly to reflect the insane difficulty of effecting 20 people in ways other than HP lose.

EDIT:Italics are to clarify that I have changed some wording to further cause this discussion to be vague.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Agreed. If I was playing magicker, I would remember that even though a 'unit' is a single NPC, ICly they're actually a dozen or more people.
Honestly, I don't think the staff should even bother coding this. This is something I would hope that the experienced, responsible, trustworthy players behind magickers would already know. If I was abusing this, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if my karma was revoked.

[Sokotra]

There are some spells that compel NPCs and PCs to do things or go places. I don't think that these spells should work on any NPC that is a unit. For the same amount of effort, a mage is compelling 10-20 or more NPCs/VNPCs to do the same thing a single NPC or PC is forced to do.

This has crossed my mind after reading a log about an event a while back. I think damaging thse NPCs is just fine - but doing other things that do not have to do with damaging just doesn't seem too realistic, unless the attacker's mana or stun is drained properly to reflect the insane difficulty of forcing 20 people to do something.

Those "units" have always seemed to be kinda nerfed to me anyways... they don't act, react, do damage, or have the hit points and other stats to reflect what they are.  I think there just needs to be a completely different way of handling 'units' or something...

[Nyr]

If you have a suggestion about something dealing with magick code, it's best to submit this as an idea within the game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you have a suggestion about something dealing with magick code, it's best to submit this as an idea within the game.

Right. But I'm not being specific, and I don't think I am even being vague. I am simply lobbying for enahnced realism when matching magick against unit NPCs. Very general. As long as everyone else posting in this thread assumes that everyone knows what they are talking about without having to name 'spell names', I am sure the thread is fine.

If I see spell names or anything specific, I'll beg for shutdown myself. But the playerbase needs to be able to discuss magick enhancements just like they discuss combat and crafting, as long as the players posting know what they are talking about, and we can speak about it in a way that answers no questions. If I suddenly develop an real idea, I will indeed use the idea command IG. It's a concept right now.

[Nyr]

When dealing with in-game code (the magick system) and specific issues (non-combat magick against unit NPCs), there is not much to say (except that it should be more realistic).

I don't mean to squash a thread, ideas, concepts, or anything like that. 
I do know exactly what you are talking about, and I agree with the idea.
There are some measures in place already to prevent such actions.

Fixing the problem--making a real fix, not just a patchwork fix--would be a bigger code change, one that I would say should/will go in for Armageddon Reborn.
In the meantime, such abuses are easy enough to monitor if any crop up.
Thank you for bringing this up, though.  Is this enough of an answer to address the originally-posted problem?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Alright, Nyr. That's a sexy enough answer.

Thanks.

[Sokotra]

When dealing with in-game code (the magick system) and specific issues (non-combat magick against unit NPCs), there is not much to say (except that it should be more realistic).

I don't mean to squash a thread, ideas, concepts, or anything like that. 
I do know exactly what you are talking about, and I agree with the idea.
There are some measures in place already to prevent such actions.

Fixing the problem--making a real fix, not just a patchwork fix--would be a bigger code change, one that I would say should/will go in for Armageddon Reborn.
In the meantime, such abuses are easy enough to monitor if any crop up.
Thank you for bringing this up, though.  Is this enough of an answer to address the originally-posted problem?

Hmm.. the things is... the same things could be said for a lot of the stuff being discussed on the GDB, yet conversation exists probably to get more input and ideas, etc... and build off of the ideas of others and continue discussing the pros and cons about various possibilities.  *shrug*  Just a general observation.

[X-D]

Personaly, I'd rather see unit NPCs gotten rid of.
They are pretty silly to watch anyway. Oh look a unit of 20 half-giant soldiers. Sure, you might not be able to target a single PC with them anymore, but They can still assist a single PC against a single PC or a single PC can target them, And how exactly are 20 half-giants hacking at one elf anyway? If it is only the first row then hay, lets just have 3 half-giant NPC soldiers...Same answer if they are taking turns. Or if you make it so that only units can engage units no matter what...Meh, lets leave them as VNPCs. And in certain instances where staff NEEDS say an entire tribe against 1 or 2 PCs, I'd much rather see "arrives from nearby" then get attacked by 2 units of 25 elves who can all magickaly hack at one guy.

[Fathi]

In a similar vein: entire units of NPCs that can hide and sneak have always seemed kind of silly to me.

[Sokotra]

Well, like I said.. they seem kinda "nerfed" but I guess it's more of a RP tool to have them hanging around - which is cool.  So I guess, really, until mass combat is just completely redone the way things are now is fine.  I dunno.  I'd just rather see a unit hanging around to give you the feel of what is going on in a particular area rather than just take them out altogether and put them in the room desc or something.

I've been attacked and chased down by a unit before... I ended up killing it because I had to stop running.  I just kind of RP'd it as a couple or few of the members of the "unit" broke off and tried to track me down and I was able to overcome them.  That would be nice if the code could do that itself, but until then you do what you can.  Now if a member of staff happened to be animating that unit there might be a different outcome... which may or may not be fair... heh. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I actually like NPC units. But, they should be reworked, I think. There was a thread about this before, where we suggested ways to have Unit NPCs split down into singles and regroup once battle was over. Kind of like bundles for arrows.

Code Select Expand

>look
The Desert [NESW]
It's a hot ass desert, with cacti and scorpions and spiders and stuff.
A unit of Allanaki soldiers stands here.
A templar stands here.

A gith has arrived from the east.
A grey gith has arrived from the east.
A red giant has arrived from the east.

The templar attacks a gith.
The templar slashes a gith on the wrist.
Two soldiers break away from a unit of Allanaki soldiers and assist the templar!
An scar-faced Allanaki soldier slashs a gith.
An Allanaki soldier slashs a gith, barely grazing him.

Two soldiers break away from a unit of Allanaki soldiers and attack a grey gith!
An Allanaki soldier slashs a grey gith very hard on the head.
An Allanaki soldier stabs a grey gith, barely grazing him.

Four soldiers break away from a unit of Allanaki soldiers and attack a red giant!
An Allanaki soldier slashs a red giant on the waist.
An Allanaki soldier chops a red giant on the head.
An Allanaki soldier attacks a red giant but misses.
An Allanaki soldier attacks a red giant but misses.

>look
The Desert [NESW]
It's a hot ass desert, with cacti and scorpions and spiders and stuff.
A partial unit of Allanaki soldiers stands here, awaiting battle.
A templar is here, fighting a gith.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a gith.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a gith.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a grey gith.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a grey gith.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a red giant.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a red giant.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a red giant.
An Allanaki soldier is here, fighting a red giant.

(fight ends)
The templar kicks a gith in the ribs, sending him to Drov.
A scar-faced Allanaki soldier returns to a unit of Allanaki soldiers.
6 Allanaki soldiers return to a unit of Allanaki soldiers.

>look
The Desert [NESW]
It's a hot ass desert, with cacti and scorpions and spiders and stuff.
A partial unit of Allanaki soldiers stands here, awaiting battle.
A templar stands here, bleeding lightly.
The body of a red giant lies here.
The body of a grey gith lies here.
The body of a gith lies here.
The body of an Allanaki soldier lies here.

>look unit
This unit of soldiers all wear the black, jade-crossed cloak of Allanak's
Militia, and bear a variety of weapons.
Their leader, a scar-faced Allanaki soldier, is present.
There are 19 members in a unit of Allanaki Soldiers.

In the OLC, or whatever the building tool for Arm is, an NPC flag that says Unit can add the following field to the unit creation options.

Code Select Expand

Specify the number of NPCs in this unit:
>5
Specify the VNUms to be used for this unit. Please start with the
sergeant's VNUM.
>54670
UNIT MEMBERS:
-54670
-
-
-
-

>23000
>23000
>23000
>23000

UNIT MEMBERS:
-54670
-23000
-23000
-23000
-23000


[Lakota]

In a similar vein: entire units of NPCs that can hide and sneak have always seemed kind of silly to me.

QFMFT

I've seen that happen before. I hate it.

[Jenred]

I dont really mind mass sneaking units. I equate it to people like the ranger-stealth guys in LOTR. Sneaking, waiting to ambush.

[Lakota]

I dont really mind mass sneaking units. I equate it to people like the ranger-stealth guys in LOTR. Sneaking, waiting to ambush.

Sorry, but I think I'd be able to hear 20+ npcs "sneaking" on sand. That much movement is bound to attract the attention of something in the wilds.

Sort of reminds of me the gith, accustomed to desert life, hiding in CITIES.

[Jenred]

I dont really mind mass sneaking units. I equate it to people like the ranger-stealth guys in LOTR. Sneaking, waiting to ambush.

Sorry, but I think I'd be able to hear 20+ npcs "sneaking" on sand. That much movement is bound to attract the attention of something in the wilds.

Sort of reminds of me the gith, accustomed to desert life, hiding in CITIES.

20+ NPCs sneaking around in a "room" that can encompass leagues worth of space? Multiple rolling dunes? Farmlands full of other people (ever read some descriptions outside allanak?), acres of trees or other plants, crevices, piles of rocks, etc?

20+ NPCs could sneak along just as well as a single one. if 20 individual PCs were in the room, there would be no similar restriction.

[musashi]

Stuff about NPC's breaking up from a unit into individual soldiers, then regrouping.

I like this idea a lot, and think it's the best answer to units of NPC's.

[Lakota]

Shadows? Shifting rocks? Sand crunching? Out of 20+ people, you're telling me that it's realistic for me to not hear a sound?

I think units unfairly bypass restrictions set up by other pc's. They move in perfect unison, and if sneak passes the check, that reflects EVERY npc effectively sneaking. Sorry, but that's a hard pill to swallow.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  

[musashi]

It's also a little silly the other way as well.

If you spot one NPC out of the 20 that are "broken up and disbursed along the landscape" ... why do you instantly know that there are 17 more of them out there?

[Lakota]

I'm not saying you should. It's a quandary that is nigh solvable unless the way units can be reworked, I think...

[Kyviantre]

I've seen this before somewhere, where single npcs could be stacked, so you get "A unit of 20 soldiers are here", while looking at them you'd get, "This unit of soldiers considers of: 5 pretty looking men wielding axes, 5 grubby looking women wielding swords, 7 scary looking children holding rocks, 2 commanding officers, and a catapult"

Ergo, you could still:
kill unit 2.child
or kill unit all

The unit could be set to defend (ie they all protect each other), scatter (ie if one gets attacked, they all flee and seperate in different directions), or impassive (ie they blink owlishly and watch one of their own get cut down), depending on who was controling the unit.

Be a case of 'set scary-looking-child unit-a', 'set unit-a defend', 'set unit-a follow me' or 'set unit-a follow other-person-in-charge'

Would get over your problem of units being a single entity, while still be able to use them like a united fighting/digging/slaving/escaping/whatever force.

[Only He Stands There]

It's pretty jarring when you have a combat beast of a PC that gets attacked by one of those units and you kill the 20+ soldiers in 5 or so hits.

I guess I took Great Cleave and didn't know it...

I'd like to see a new solution regarding units in 2.0, sure.

[NoteworthyFellow]

It's pretty jarring when you have a combat beast of a PC that gets attacked by one of those units and you kill the 20+ soldiers in 5 or so hits.

I guess I took Great Cleave and didn't know it...

It sure conjures up some badass 300-style imagery, though.

[BlackMagic0]

I like the idea that they break away when going into combat.
Also hate the idea of one spell, buffing 20 units.
Its lame.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It's pretty jarring when you have a combat beast of a PC that gets attacked by one of those units and you kill the 20+ soldiers in 5 or so hits.

I guess I took Great Cleave and didn't know it...

It sure conjures up some badass 300-style imagery, though.

Sorta, but not when all you get is that crap that you are hitting a unit. If the soldiers broke away, and you managed to kill 20 indidual NPCs, then yeh, that's pretty badass.