IG History

[jcljules]

How much of the game's history has been created by players playing in game? Have the merchant houses always been around? Were there really characters named Kurac and Kadius, or was that just written up by the staff?

[Tisiphone]

Very much more than most people think has been created by the players.

[mansa]

AFAIK ->

History started here:

     628
    The armies of the city-states of Allanak and Tuluk clash at Wyntek Harzen, east of the Red Desert. The battle is short and inconclusive. During the war, a black fortress is discovered in the sands. It is believed to be the home of Luir Dragonsthrall, last living servant of the Dragon.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi

[jcljules]

Oh wow! So the merchant houses weren't even thought up by the IMMs then?

Funny to think that some of our players might be over a thousand years old....

[Malken]

Oh wow! So the merchant houses weren't even thought up by the IMMs then?

Funny to think that some of our players might be over a thousand years old....

Kadius, Salarr and Kuraci were not PC formed.

[mansa]

Oh wow! So the merchant houses weren't even thought up by the IMMs then?

Funny to think that some of our players might be over a thousand years old....

Kadius, Salarr and Kuraci were not PC formed.

Are you sure about that?

[Rahnevyn]

There have been player-formed merchant houses in the past. The most recent example is House Terash. Delann and Kohmar, I believe, were also player formed.

Even the "Big Four" (Don't forget Nenyuk) have undergone drastic changes in terms of political outlook, objectives, and resources as time as gone by.

[jcljules]

I really wish Nenyuk was open--its my favorite.

[Rahnevyn]

I really wish Nenyuk was open--its my favorite.

It is, on a very limited basis: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30834.0.html

(Vanth has already filled the role, I'm just posting the link for your reference.)

[Malken]

Oh wow! So the merchant houses weren't even thought up by the IMMs then?

Funny to think that some of our players might be over a thousand years old....

Kadius, Salarr and Kuraci were not PC formed.

Are you sure about that?

My first character was a human working for an elf who was a merchant of Kadius, he had his own wagon and they had their own little warehouse in Tuluk, that was almost 13+ years ago..

Now if you tell me that it was started by a player, then you can't really compare it to what it would be like to do so today, since back then, everyone was buddy with the Imms and you had tops 10 players
online at peak..

[jcljules]

Do you ancient players with +1000 karma still play mundane characters ever? Or just defilers, nobles and house family members? 

[Is Friday]

Do you ancient players with +1000 karma still play mundane characters ever? Or just defilers, nobles and house family members? 

So far as I know, people vary depending on playing style no matter how long they've played. It's skewed across the board.

[Malken]

Do you ancient players with +1000 karma still play mundane characters ever? Or just defilers, nobles and house family members? 

I still mostly just play warriors and rangers. Most of them are all human.

[jcljules]

Thats what so great about this game--you have no idea who the other characters are, what the players look like, or even (hopefully) who they are on the forums and how long they've been playing.

[buzz]

How much of the game's history has been created by players playing in game?

Boy, that's a great question, and one which I wished came up more often on this board.  I hope to answer it briefly to my satisfaction, and yours, and if possible spark some ongoing discussion about this topic.

I believe that almost all history in the game should be player-generated.  After all, we're the ones that are writing the story every hour of every day, when we log in and contribute our time and imagination to the world.  It's a rare and special feeling to look back on something in a document, or even something actually "physically" in the game and say to yourself, I did that, and it's still here.  I think influential PCs played by imaginative players should be able to influence the game for posterity, from something as small as being able to say that you were the first one who started a simple tradition among your clan, all the way up to having streets named after you or statues built of you.

I hope that Arm 2 is being painted in broad enough strokes by the builders that there are enough holes to fill in with player imagination, rather than having every single little detail spelled out.  Over-detailing makes for a stifling world, where players don't feel like they're able to contribute.  Armageddon (the original) is the result of 15+ years of a thousand minds bent singly to the purpose of fleshing out this desert world.  You can't come close to that in a couple years of a few dozen people building, even though I'm sure we've got our best and brightest working on it.  Give us the canvas, some broad brushstrokes and a color palette; let us paint the picture together over time.

[jstorrie]

I disagree. I don't think the entirety of history should be PC-determined; that sort of setup would lead me to feel, as I play, that PCs in-game were the only other characters of consequence. That sort of thing leads to me feeling like I'm playing in a playground with thirty other people I know, not playing in an entire new world.

Let player-characters have whatever level of historical influence their actions entitle them to, but let the world keep turning, too. Everyone seems to be rattling on about player-driven content on the GDB lately, but I don't think many of you would actually enjoy the consequences of a purely PC-led world. Events need to also come from 'the environment' - the setting itself and its dramatis personae.

[jcljules]

Well maybe not -completely- PC-Led; of course there is quite a job for the IMMs to to do. But I'm fine with a lot of it being PC-Generated, and I would like to see more of it.

[Jenred]

I've never been satisfied with player created/driven content, in MOST cases. Most of the most influential "engaging" pcs that I've met have been in it for nothing more then to advance their own character with perks from the staff.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I disagree. I don't think the entirety of history should be PC-determined; that sort of setup would lead me to feel, as I play, that PCs in-game were the only other characters of consequence. That sort of thing leads to me feeling like I'm playing in a playground with thirty other people I know, not playing in an entire new world.

Let player-characters have whatever level of historical influence their actions entitle them to, but let the world keep turning, too. Everyone seems to be rattling on about player-driven content on the GDB lately, but I don't think many of you would actually enjoy the consequences of a purely PC-led world. Events need to also come from 'the environment' - the setting itself and its dramatis personae.

I agree wholeheartedly.  When I first log into 2.Arm, I want to feel like it's a complete, detailed world already, just like 1.Arm feels when I log in.  I want the culture of each settlement to already be established.  Players can and should be able to change those sorts of things, over time, but I want to feel like there's a good structure already there when I log in.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who's okay with the level of attainable PC authority as it is now.  I mean, I won't complain if there's more, but I don't want the entire first couple years of the game to be fraught with PCs trying to independently decide what the culture of their favorite settlement should be, y'know?  Granted, that's just one example.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Do you ancient players with +1000 karma still play mundane characters ever? Or just defilers, nobles and house family members? 

I still mostly just play warriors and rangers. Most of them are all human.

I still mostly just play warriors and rangers. Most of them are all non-human.

[mansa]

i play human pickpocket or burglars.

[musashi]

Though I haven't been around for very long, I do have karma ... and I've also yet to feel the urge to use it.

[jcljules]

Yeah, I'm not really interested in playing elementalists for whatever reason, or non-humans. I'd only -really- want to play a nilazi or a sorcerer, and that takes a -lot- of karma, so will probably take some time, if I ever get there.

[Rhyden]

No matter how many karma required characters I've played, the mundanes are always the most fun.

[musashi]

Yeah, I'm not really interested in playing elementalists for whatever reason, or non-humans. I'd only -really- want to play a nilazi or a sorcerer, and that takes a -lot- of karma, so will probably take some time, if I ever get there.

I feel the same way ... it's psi, defiler ... or bust for me!  

[LoD]

AFAIK ->

History started here:

     628
    The armies of the city-states of Allanak and Tuluk clash at Wyntek Harzen, east of the Red Desert. The battle is short and inconclusive. During the war, a black fortress is discovered in the sands. It is believed to be the home of Luir Dragonsthrall, last living servant of the Dragon.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi

Not that these really depict anything historical, and I think they are mostly throwbacks to the people that were around back in that time, but the names mentioned in the following history excerpts were actual clans that existed in the original Armageddon that had levels, tell, who, names vs. sdescs, and all that jazz.

c.290
The powerful chieftain Quintus Tektolnes conquers and unites the tribes at Vrun Driath into a small kingdom. The tribes called Doombringer, Tan-Muark, and Shadow are among the conquered.

c.400
A hitherto unknown warrior named Muk Utep sacks the twelve tribes at Gol Krathu with an army of terrible barbarians out of the northwest. The tribes called the Elves of Mallok and the Twin Warlocks are among the conquered. The city-state of Tuluk begins to rise under Utep the Sun King.

As far as the debate between having a completely PC-created history and starting environment vs. one that comes with a fair amount of cultural and environmental details, here's my take.

I'm in favor of systems that provide a stable and consistent backdrop for the players while they create their plans, plots, and stories.  The fact that certain aspects of the game world have rarely changed over time (i.e. Great Merchant Houses, City-States, Government Systems) have provided me with a great sense of comfort and ease, especially when creating a character background.  I don't have to worry so much if a certain organization, government position, or city-state still exists.

Having led many completely PC-created organizations and plots, I know full well how easily they crumble apart when the leader PC dies, retires, or stops playing.  This type of collapse can be devastating in an environment that depends upon them to properly represent a portion of the environment, such as the government or the sole source provider of weapons to a settlement.  Between the cracks and crevices of our fragile building block empires, there must exist the foundation that holds everything up when our plans come crashing down around our heads.  It's a layer that supports our PC endeavors and holds everything together through the cyclical ebb and flow of the player base as they move from organization to organization, city to city, role to role.

And I'm hopeful that such a system will continue to exist in Arm 2.0, allowing us the same measure of immersion, stability and consistency from Day 1 that we will feel all the way at Year 10.

-LoD

[jcljules]

emote gives a standing ovation.

[psionic fungus]

Let player-characters have whatever level of historical influence their actions entitle them to, but let the world keep turning, too. Everyone seems to be rattling on about player-driven content on the GDB lately, but I don't think many of you would actually enjoy the consequences of a purely PC-led world. Events need to also come from 'the environment' - the setting itself and its dramatis personae.

I don't think you're really understanding what some, like myself, are asking for when they ask for PvP or player-driven content.  I'm not saying that NPCs or vNPCs should be ignored... I'm saying that instead of having NPC Gith attack Allanak, there could be a plot where (through staff facilitation) multiple PC groups are told about some artifact the Gith have recovered, and they then begin to compete to see who can get said artifact back.  Use NPCs, use the game-world, but center the plots around PC groups...  When one entire side of a conflict has no PCs... That's the issue.  If it's one or two special-apped PCs and against the world... That's not a whole lot better.  I vastly prefer conflict when it is between two or more PC groups.

This doesn't mean I want PCs to be the end all be all.  It means that I want plots that are dynamic, with more than one possible "ending", and the ability for PCs to fairly easily join any side of the conflict.

[Southie]

I'm saying that instead of having NPC Gith attack Allanak, there could be a plot where (through staff facilitation) multiple PC groups are told about some artifact the Gith have recovered, and they then begin to compete to see who can get said artifact back.  Use NPCs, use the game-world, but center the plots around PC groups...  When one entire side of a conflict has no PCs... That's the issue.  If it's one or two special-apped PCs and against the world... That's not a whole lot better.  I vastly prefer conflict when it is between two or more PC groups.

This doesn't mean I want PCs to be the end all be all.  It means that I want plots that are dynamic, with more than one possible "ending", and the ability for PCs to fairly easily join any side of the conflict.

Actually, something very close to this did indeed happen in the gith wars. The second stage of it was very heavily player-driven, and I know there were PCs on multiple "sides". I can't go into details, it's unfortunately a Find Out IC thing.

For the record, I think both ways (staff-driven and player-driven) have their own advantages and disadvantages, and both are enjoyable.

[NoteworthyFellow]

For the record, I think both ways (staff-driven and player-driven) have their own advantages and disadvantages, and both are enjoyable.

Yep.

[psionic fungus]

The "second part of the Gith Wars", or whatever, was not the NPC invasion (a result of it, yes)...

The invasion itself was very one-sided, PCs vs NPCs.  Definitely not the way I like to see things. There was no way the Gith were going to destroy Allanak, the 'Rinth, breech a wall, or do anything that wasn't already decided by the Staff.  The players had no real sway in anything that happened. It was a pre-determined plot, mucg like watching the cut-scene in a game, to me... And that is what I don't like.  It's nice that more happened after that... But I would prefer to see the Gith opened as a PC race for a few months before they try to invade Allanak, and I think there should be more than one possible outcome of the raid...  Really, I don't like having any intelligent/humanoid group that has no PCs, it just seems too "us vs them" or black and white...

Of course, I'm not saying that there weren't some PvP and/or dynamic elements in the Gith Invasion... I'm just saying that the major aspects were not PvP and did not seem dynamic, and I find much more enjoyment in plots that are.

[Gimfalisette]

The players had no real sway in anything that happened. It was a pre-determined plot, mucg like watching the cut-scene in a game, to me... And that is what I don't like.  It's nice that more happened after that... But I would prefer to see the Gith opened as a PC race for a few months before they try to invade Allanak, and I think there should be more than one possible outcome of the raid...  Really, I don't like having any intelligent/humanoid group that has no PCs, it just seems too "us vs them" or black and white...

Of course, I'm not saying that there weren't some PvP and/or dynamic elements in the Gith Invasion... I'm just saying that the major aspects were not PvP and did not seem dynamic, and I find much more enjoyment in plots that are.

Having been there in the thick of it, it definitely seems to me like some critical changes in Allanak happened due to player action (or inaction) during the gith invasion and were not pre-decided. There were important spots that were left undefended by PCs and were subsequently destroyed, for example. And I wouldn't be surprised that if the PCs had not planned and amassed such a good defense (by PCs, NPCs, and VNPCs all together), the city really could have gone down or been much more destroyed than it was.

[Rahnevyn]

From reading the plotline threads, I can tell you that in fact there were multiple possible outcomes for the invasion, and that PC actions determined what happened. What you saw happen was not set in stone before the RPT even began; it wasn't a "cutscene". There were variables depending on what PCs defended where, how many defenders were in certain areas, etc. It may not seem 'dynamic' because you only get to see what did happen, not all the possibilities that didn't.  There was even building done in advance for some outcomes that did not come to pass.

The event wasn't scripted like a play, I'd say it was more laid out as a series of decisions "If this happens, then this happens; else that happens."

I see what you're saying that we could have had the conflict between two PC groups (Copper War style), but in this case, it wasn't... and it still worked out pretty well.

[Gimfalisette]

That's just really awesome to know, Rahnevyn. It felt that way to me at the time--as a PC deeply involved in the invasion coming, it felt like we really needed to be on our game to prevent really terrible things (terrible from our PCs' perspectives, anyways ). I'm so glad to know it was true.

[Nyr]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,24087.new.html#new

More IC history, largely done by players.  Hope you enjoy this particular thread, I plan to do at least one or two more about this particular plotline.

[Gimfalisette]

Just read that, good stuff, Nyr. Go dorfs!

[AmandaGreathouse]

Oh hells yes! I love that thread. I always find it awesome when I new one comes out. Especially the new one, thanks for posting it.

[buzz]

I think a few people misunderstood the point I was trying to make in my previous reply.  I saw a few responses that indicated a preference for Immortal run plots rather than player run plots.  I'm going to address that a bit later, but what I meant when I said that players should have more of an influence on the world is in static things, rather than fluid plots.

Maybe some of you don't have the same perspective on this that I do.  When I started playing Arm, it was a different game, one that many of you probably wouldn't recognize.  One fellow said he wanted to enter into a "fully detailed world from the start, just like 1.Arm" if you can allow me to paraphrase what he said.  How do you think said 1.Arm became fully detailed?  Years, and years of staff and player contributions.  I, for one, look forward, if I may re-use my painter's analogy, to a clean canvas onto which we can all paint our vision.  Details which a builder can't even imagine at this stage.  Things for players to envision, flesh out, perhaps document, or perhaps just pass down orally through tradition.  Flavor that's not going to be developed until we get into the world and actually begin playing within it.  My caution was only for over-detailing: I certainly don't want an un-detailed, bland world.  Leaving some room for players to explore the culture can't hurt, though.  Players over time will inevitably think of things that the builder never intended, but which fit into the culture and the world.  Those are the contributions we make that makes the game so rich and detailed.

As for plots, I'm not sure anyone will disagree that the broad, wide-reaching plots can only be immortal run, due to their nature.  The players just don't know everything that's going on.  However, influential PCs can and should be able to affect the world in some ways, if they're in a position of power to do so.  Certainly it's rare: even in 1.Arm I can count on one hand the number of PCs I've interacted with that had enough clout to manufacture a game-changing plot on their own (and even then, there's probably some sort of immortal action required.)  We shouldn't discount that from happening in 2.Arm, nor do I think that is being suggested.

[Desertman]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

[LoD]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

While it may have begun as a PC operated mercenary group, if we're giving props were props are due, Krrx and Tlaloc also deserve a good portion of the praise for their management of the clan and especially Krrx's layout design of the Allanaki compound.  One can take lessons with how functional, yet, small scale the T'zai-Byn compound is and how well it manages to maintain and support the atmosphere created there.

-LoD

[musashi]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

And I think I recall reading somewhere that now a days ... a PC can not gain a leadership position higher than a Sgt in that clan now?

Or ... maybe it was something like: The highest ranking Byn PC I've ever seen was a Lt. No PC's are allowed to gain too much rank in a clan ... or something like that.

I dunno, could have sworn I read that somewhere.

[Desertman]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

While it may have begun as a PC operated mercenary group, if we're giving props were props are due, Krrx and Tlaloc also deserve a good portion of the praise for their management of the clan and especially Krrx's layout design of the Allanaki compound.  One can take lessons with how functional, yet, small scale the T'zai-Byn compound is and how well it manages to maintain and support the atmosphere created there.

-LoD

To quote Tlalock..."The Byn runs like a well oiled machine when you have the right PC leaders in charge. It basically runs on auto-pilot. We need to run all clans this way".

It bothers me noone ever took his advice.

[Tisiphone]

To quote Tlaloc..."The Byn runs like a well oiled machine when you have the right PC leaders in charge. It basically runs on auto-pilot. We need to run all clans this way".

It bothers me no-one ever took his advice.

I agree, but the bolded part is the problem. A problem I believe can be addressed, but a problem nonetheless.

[Desertman]

I have to throw in a plug for what is without a doubt the best clan in Armageddon MUD.

The Tzai Byn was started, built up, and secured completely by PC's.

All other clans just got pwned by the Byn's uber PC ran'ness.

And I think I recall reading somewhere that now a days ... a PC can not gain a leadership position higher than a Sgt in that clan now?

Or ... maybe it was something like: The highest ranking Byn PC I've ever seen was a Lt. No PC's are allowed to gain too much rank in a clan ... or something like that.

I dunno, could have sworn I read that somewhere.

I have personally never witnessed a PC gain above Lieutenant rank. Which is considerable.

Because of the way the Byn is set up, for all apparent purposes if you are a Lieutenant you may as well be the Commander.

It wouldnt surprise me to see even the position of Commander within grasp of a PC in this particular clan though.

This clan is already ran so much by the pc's themselves without the need for IMM assistance or intervention that the difference it would make would likely be so minimal as to not be noticed. Unless the PC in question did something ass'ish...but that PC would probably never earn the promotion anyways.

If you are the ONLY Byn Sergeant, even this rank is very similar in many ways to being your clan IMM. The power is very much in the hands of the PC's in this clan, and its frickin' wonderful. From speaking with IMM's who have run this clan in the past its not nearly as much stress to IMM over the Byn regardless of the fact it has a large playerbase.

Simply put...the Byn setup is a model for other clans.

[Desertman]

To quote Tlaloc..."The Byn runs like a well oiled machine when you have the right PC leaders in charge. It basically runs on auto-pilot. We need to run all clans this way".

It bothers me no-one ever took his advice.

I agree, but the bolded part is the problem. A problem I believe can be addressed, but a problem nonetheless.

Because of the Byn structure...those leaders are typically weeded out by the other players themselves, it usually isnt even an IMM concern.

Edited to add: I have done a little "weeding" in this particular clan...I'm sure I'm not the only one. Bad leaders dont make it very long here.

[Morrolan]

I always had great help from the Byn Imms.  I wish my old computer had not been lost by Dell, because somewhere I had the list of PCs who were members under Sgt. Marook and Lt. Akasha at the same time as me.  Sgt. Marook's unit had about fifteen members at one time.

From what I could see, what the Imms do for the Byn is provide grease (and grit!) for plots and contracts, and give the clan a bump when it's lost all leadership.

Maybe someday, before this is over, I'll revisit those hallowed halls.

Morrolan

[Desertman]

I always had great help from the Byn Imms.  I wish my old computer had not been lost by Dell, because somewhere I had the list of PCs who were members under Sgt. Marook and Lt. Akasha at the same time as me.  Sgt. Marook's unit had about fifteen members at one time.

From what I could see, what the Imms do for the Byn is provide grease (and grit!) for plots and contracts, and give the clan a bump when it's lost all leadership.

Maybe someday, before this is over, I'll revisit those hallowed halls.

Morrolan

Yup, what I like about Byn IMM's is they let the IC leaders actually lead. They are just there to bump things along should the NEED ever arise. Which is very seldom does, barring the entire annihilation of a unit due to "enter catastrophe of choice".

In most other clans the IMM's lead, and dictate what they want done down to PC leaders.

In the Byn when they say you are a leader, you are leading.

[Twilight]

I have to agree with LoD, the Byn's current structure, how it was redesigned, is awesome.  It is completely, completely different.

My highest rank in the Byn with a character was Tokhar, or was it Dohkar?  I can never remember which was which.  I had lots of knots.  It took approximately 3 weeks to get them from my entry into the clan.  I can't even verbally express how much better things are now.

[mansa]

Sargax was a character that got higher than "lieutenant" in his respective clan.

Ysania was the house head of her clan she created.

Pearl was also the head of her clan she created.

All three characters survived for over 2+ years of real life time.

[RogueGunslinger]

i play human pickpocket or burglars.

Is that you you little shit?

[Bluefae]

Sargax was a character that got higher than "lieutenant" in his respective clan.

Ysania was the house head of her clan she created.

Pearl was also the head of her clan she created.

All three characters survived for over 2+ years of real life time.

     *raises lowbie hand*  All right, I'll bite.  Over the years, I've seen Ysania and Pearl's names mentioned with some regularity, whenever Great Characters are getting tossed around.  If the answer isn't "Find out IC" (which is fine), I'm really curious:  What Clans did these ladies create, and aside from that feat, was there another reason they're on nearly everyone's short list of "Greats" (longevity obviously being part of the equation, but that in-and-of itself can't have been enough)?

[Gimfalisette]

IIRC:

Pearl was the founder of House Terash, a minor merchant house in Allanak, which owns/runs the Atrium. Pearl also built the Silver Ginka.

Ysania was the founder of House Morlaine, also a recognized minor merchant house in Allanak, with an estate in Tuluk during the occupation--but the house was destroyed due to political outfall when Ysania was accused of collusion with the rebels. (Which is why Ysania has a street named after her in Tuluk.)

Their players wrote the stories of these characters' lives on the old GDB, in the OOC forum, when we were having an old characters thread once. But I believe the thread may have poofed due to the old OOC's forum thread-deletion setting, which is really a shame--they were great stories.

[mansa]

Sargax was Kurac.

[Bluefae]

     Thanks!  With this info as a start, I should be able to dig around some more.  PC-generated history that has become part of the shared world-story always fascinates me.

[jstorrie]

There are a handful of PCs in-game who are basically at Historical Status, too. While some of them, understandably, aren't well-known, others are very public and probably accessible.

If you really wanted to get into PC history, you could always app, say, a Negean noble who travels, interviews people, sees the sights and then writes the history down. There definitely is a fair amount going on at every level; it's just that not everyone is directly affected by or privy to all of it.

[Ender]

IIRC:

Ysania was the founder of House Morlaine, also a recognized minor merchant house in Allanak, with an estate in Tuluk during the occupation--but the house was destroyed due to political outfall when Ysania was accused of collusion with the rebels. (Which is why Ysania has a street named after her in Tuluk.)

That's actually not true.  House Morlaine was given status as a full noble house though on the lowest tier.

[Bogre]

The "second part of the Gith Wars", or whatever, was not the NPC invasion (a result of it, yes)...

The invasion itself was very one-sided, PCs vs NPCs.  Definitely not the way I like to see things. There was no way the Gith were going to destroy Allanak, the 'Rinth, breech a wall, or do anything that wasn't already decided by the Staff.  The players had no real sway in anything that happened. It was a pre-determined plot, mucg like watching the cut-scene in a game, to me... And that is what I don't like.  It's nice that more happened after that... But I would prefer to see the Gith opened as a PC race for a few months before they try to invade Allanak, and I think there should be more than one possible outcome of the raid...  Really, I don't like having any intelligent/humanoid group that has no PCs, it just seems too "us vs them" or black and white...

Of course, I'm not saying that there weren't some PvP and/or dynamic elements in the Gith Invasion... I'm just saying that the major aspects were not PvP and did not seem dynamic, and I find much more enjoyment in plots that are.
[/quote

The gith wars could have very well been NPC vs PC group vs PC group vs PC group. It was entirely due to a lot of PC actions that their groups were on the same side, and aiding each other. AFAIK no groups were 'forced' to cooperate with each other, but instead reached that decision on their own.

[Tisiphone]

The invasion itself was very one-sided, PCs vs NPCs.

This is, in fact, not true, though most of the main action most PCs saw fit this paradigm. An argument might be made, however, that the best RPTs avoid giving their participants this impression.