Learn all Skills? Hear me out!

[halfbreed]

I'm sure some variants of this have been brought up before, but I'm proposing it again (mostly because I've not been able to search for the same exact topic yet on these boards).

I think it would be spiffy if all skills (or at least all normally available skills to the default classes) were eventually learnable/branchable by every class.  Now before we hear screams of bloody murder and "No warriors shooting fireballs out his arse!!!" - note that I said specifically only skills learnable by the default classes.

In addition, since I believe the class system is central to Arm, you could impose strict caps and say... half or even quarter-rate learning curves for people working outside their class.  (Like a warrior trying to learn sneak)  Should be doable, but you'll probably suck at it and it'll be a pain in the ass to raise.

Really would add realism, however, as it gets rid of these arbitrary set limits according to class.  (The same thing that always nagged at me when I'd play D&D, and my magic user was somehow never, ever going to learn to sneak around, or swing a sword, no matter how hard he tried.)

Even if you were REALLY bad at these skills, at least you should be able to get some rudimentary knowledge if you worked at it.  The secondary class system was a very good step in the right direction, as it helps you flesh things out a lot with regards to skills.  But I've read somewhere that it's best to think of secondary classes as good backgrounds for your character, not as additional skillsets.  And I like that idea.  Secondary classes can give you added individuality/bonuses, but it'd be great if people could learn things outside the norm for their classes, even if it's only to dabble.

Am I nuts?  (feel free to say yes, I'm okay with it.)  

[Delirium]

Well, it certainly would help to do away with the 'he can't swing a sword to save his life.. so he's either a rich merchant or a filthy magicker. KILL HIM!' thing.

[X-D]

I had a thought along the same line today, except it went a bit (lot) farther.

Now, to start, this idea would only be for karma 2 and above. And I got to thinking about it while reading the backstab/assassin thread.

(disclaimer, keep in mind I have not fleshed this out much)

Now, lets say that you had two karma and you go to make a char, You would see the normal race options plus desert elf, you choose human, then you get class, now, if you choose one of the default classes then things continue as they do now, but you would have some extra options, 3-4 of them...call them generic karma class (C)ity, (S)tealth, (W)ilderness,
these would be classes containing a broad range of skills that any of the basic classes get to start but with a broader grouping and can branch in different directions depending on use, rp and whatnot (whatnot being staff desicions) when you branch in certain directions and combinations some things close out, you do not lose them, they just no longer advance, and others get a higher cap and can also branch, (within limits of current karma) this opens up a wide avenue of possibilities without having a strict and known set of class skills, possible that the char could end up becoming a guard type, basicly a warrior but with better guard, rescue, subdue, plus scan and listen, but without some of the warrior branched skills or since has 2 karma, may, through play 'open up' the link with Vivadu, who knows.

Now the backstab thread got me thinking on past assassins I have had or known and magickers and such, Most of the assassins I have played did not grow up wanting to be an -assassin- they wanted to be something else, but for one reason or another needed to learn/use those skills. Most magicker chars my charectors have talked to were not born knowing they had a link to this power over water/air/earth etc but something happened to make it open to them or for them to notice, some knew early but (and considering the world this makes perfect sense) Hid it from themselves and others.

This style of class choosing would allow that to happen in a realistic fashion

I find it exciting to think about really, I can imagine playing your Rinthi char who fails to pickpocket and gets chased down, is panicked and near death then a sudden burst of wind knocks his persuers back and gives him the chance to escape, maybe he does, maybe he does not, but if he does, his life is changed drasticly, for better or for worse but he has to deal with it. Suddenly he is some type of magicker, whiran? defiler? some people know this now, what will he do, consaquences for every choice...oohhh, fun.

[Tlaloc]

If this were done, it would end up that many PC's had the exact same skills. Everyone, despite the fact that they might be fancypants merchants, would choose to work up Backstab, Hide, Sneak, Etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, other useful, if underused skills, would go to rot.

I see this sort of thing by watching my roomate play Ultima Online, which has a system just like you're proposing.

Me: "What're you doing?"

Roomate, as he spams "hide": "Practicing Hiding."

Me: "Aren't you a Wizard? How is it IC that you're practicing to hide?"

Roomate: "You have to learn hide, to keep from getting PKed. Besides: my PC is shy."

Me: "Uh huh. What about your Blacksmith character?"

Roomate: "I hide with him, too."

Me: "...Hm."

Right now, classes make for interesting roles for people to play. You don't have to be a Merchant, to be a Merchant. You don't nessecarially have to be a Warrior to be a Mercenary. I seen people play Bodyguards with Elementalists. Classes and skills don't make a character: they accentuate them. Characters make characters.

In an effort to help people make personalized characters (Because people kept emailing the mud, and asking for certain skills because thier backgrounds said they should), we added Secondary Guilds. They aren't there so people can have l33t 5k1LLz. They're there so people can have a coded reflection of thier backgrounds, previous to whatever they became now (or in addition to).

Characters who went against thier family tradition of being armorcrafters, but instead decided to join the military, can have a reflection of thier family history in thier skills. Characters who are Merchants by trade, but decided to pick up a singing and music hobby, now have the option to reflect that. Magickers who were previously making thier livings as pickpockets (or trying to) before becomming Elementalists, now have something to show for it.

In my opionion, they serve that purpose pretty well, though I wonder how many people are just selecting skill packages to have badassess, rather than picking them to reflect thier backgrounds.

Its entirelly possible that you could use your secondary guild as your main guild, and then RP out a mid-life crisis/elemental erruption two or three (or even ten or twenty) IC years down the line. Don't get bogged down by the skill sheet.

Additionally, the level of coding that would be required to change the already perfectly good system over to something else I think would be mind-boggling. So...don't expect it to change, heh.

[X-D]

Grin, I fully agree with you Tlaloc, my idea was basicly the -In a perfect world- Type thought, and I know the coding would be....um immense, But, in the way it would work, if the person did opt for say stealth class and worked up mainly backstab, pickpocket, sneak, hide and such then the char would branch in that direction, closing out other options the farther along you got and capping off skills to no farther advancement.

In the end they would have a burgler/pickpocket type char but without the advanced skills of the true class, though they would have some skills maybe of other classes, though they would not branch and would be far weaker then the normal class that gets them. Like I said, basicly just wishful thinking that I felt like sharing since this thread was started, I know that it would be unlikly in the extreme for anything even close to it to actually happen.

Also, it would need to be karma of course, and the odds on branching magick would be very limited and happen in a somewhat random fashion based on karma, maybe at the point of the first skill branch (assuming an IMM did not already turn off the option or enable it for whatever reason)
A check would be made, first check would be against skills say said char has more then X number of skills over X amount then magick/mindbender is disabled and they just continue to branch on the chosen path (all of the skills would basicly work that way) this would stop an advanced ranger/assassin type from gaining magick or being too advanced in too large a range. But if the skill levels fell into the right criteria then a roll would be made say with a 10% chance of getting magick/psi within Karma limits of course and the type would then be rolled on, with equal chance for each, within karma again, This would be a one time roll and if failed would never happen again.

Now, My own little disclaimer, I personaly think that each of the current classes is nearly perfect in Balance range, playability and power and have said so many times on the GDB, On past accounts I have also played assassin class as a merchant, successfuly and and that was before subclasses had fun at it and other types also. I was not even going to post this Idea except somebody started a thread that was close to what I was thinking, on the same day :oops:

But you have to admit, such a system *if* it could be done, would surely be interesting.

[gfair]

I think it would be interesting to have a generic option for both non-karma and karma accounts, but the taxonomy and work needed, and the inevitable debate and controversy would probably be non-stop.  Or maybe it would be harmlessly accepted like cheerleaders taking to a new cheer - accepting by nature.

That said, though, being able to choose your own adventure, with restrictions, sounds like fun.

[Delerak]

I think it says something about the staff when an imm states that all the fancypants merchants who are supposed to be roleplaying at this (RPI) mud are going to choose backstab, hide, sneak, etc. etc.  Just my opinion.

[halfbreed]

Tlaloc, not sure if you were refering to my original post, but I know what Ultima Online turned into, and there's no way at all my suggestion could really turn into that reality.

Specifically, because classes would still be the most defining trait of your character, strict caps would be imposed (very low caps in some cases) as well as hindered advancement for non-class skills...  so you keep the realism of being able to dabble in things, without the possibility of being an adept merchant/warrior/assassin/burglar/ranger.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly though that if classes were removed altogether and not used for determining skil-caps, that it would be a Bad Thing(TM).

[My 2 sids]

Ok... two ideas come to mind here.

1.  Why not give all skill point value.  Say then when one creates a character they are given so many points to spend on picking their own skills.  The key is that skills outside of the normal class skills kit, are very "expencive."  Ok.. maybe I shouldnt be explaining this at 3am.. but I think ive seen some people use this to create like AD&D characters.

My 2nd idea would be to let people pick -one- outside skill when they create the character.  This skill would be something they had learned already in their history.  

Just thoughts

[crymerci]

I like My 2 sids' idea.

So, for example, a magicker. She could either learn one weapon skill, two language skills, or three craft skills. (or other amounts depending on type)

Or, a merchant. He could learn one weapon skill, two manipulation skills, or three perception skills.

Of course, I have no idea how that would be coded or overseen.

[Xanous]

If the maximum was very low, like 5% or whatever, then I think it might work out.  It makes sense that an intelligent person should be able to pick up some basic ability in whatever mundane skill they put their mind to.  If regular skills could be picked up randomly by doing them or even taught by a skilled teacher, it'd be more realistic than a merchant who still can't kick even after 20 years in the Byn.  A merchant who sucks, but still can land the occasional kick is better.  Knowing a bunch of skills to 5 or 10% isn't going to unballance the game.  Whether it's worth the time to impliment and whether it's worth the time for the average character to learn how to scan/hunt/backstab to 7% are other questions.

I still think a jack-of-all trades class would be fun.

[Plazgoth]

I have always imagined that even though a skill did not show up on your skill list you had some small tiny proficiency in it. That's why I could never understand people who told me you are fekkin' ranger why the hell would you even attempt to kick in combat, or why would you sit through the lecture on kick. To give the Byn as example there are not just warriors there but -all- end up virtually learning how to be warriors, even if the coded skill set does not support it fully.

[X-D]

I had a ranger that successfully disarmed two times in his life, both times the other player/char was very suprised. he succeeded in bash quite a bit, but never landed a kick.