While we're talking about dwarves ...

[musashi]

We all know elves are no good longear thieving bastards not to be trusted with anything you have any interest in ever seeing again ... ...

What about dwarves? Do they get the same level of racist hatred or do they fill a different nitch in the world's view?

[Tisiphone]

Dwarves are stumpy little hidebound slaves. And don't you forget it.

[Riev]

I always considered dwarves (When not playing one, obviously) as silly little creatures, more annoying than anything else. Can't ever talk to one if he wants to do something, he'll never listen. Stubborn, one-track minded little idiots.

Because, really, who cares if they're strong? We're SMARTER.

[musashi]

Dwarves are stumpy little hidebound slaves. And don't you forget it.

Got cha! 

[Ueda]

I've noticed it's much easier playing a dwarf IG. IG there stubborness is alot easier to deal with than an elfs mistrust & thievery.

[hyzhenhok]

You walk into a bar, and see an elf and a dwarf. The dwarf is the one who lends his strength to human society. The elf is the one who steals from human society.

Dwarves are useful. Elves aren't. End of story.

[Tisiphone]

Dwarves are useful. Elves aren't. End of story.

True, except most dwarves are also slaves. They lend their strengths to human society as tools. So, while tolerable and even in isolated cases likable, there's a social status to consider.

[hyzhenhok]

True, except most dwarves are also slaves. They lend their strengths to human society as tools. So, while tolerable and even in isolated cases likable, there's a social status to consider.

Isn't slave status a separate issue from racial status? There are slaves of all races. Even though a smaller proportion of elves are slaves than any other race, there are more elven slaves than dwarven or mul slaves simply because there are more elves. And don't tell me human slaves are more respectable or liked than dwarven or mul slaves.

My experiences in the game so far show that free dwarves are clearly in the rank "just under human". Discrimination exists, but it far more subtle than that against elves and breeds. People are seldom openly hostile to a dwarf for being a dwarf. There are positions that are not open to dwarves, so they are clearly not equal to humans, but they are given positions that show that they have some worth to society. Unlike those pesky elves, and certainly unlike those filthy breeds.

[musashi]

And don't tell me human slaves are more respectable or liked than dwarven or mul slaves.

That is ... exactly what I would tell you actually ... a slave is a slave is a slave I'll agree but I could totally see one noble mocking another with a comment like, "Hmm ... I can't help but notice the majority of elves that fill your clay mines ... you aren't in financial straights are you? Human ilk can't be /that/ much more expensive hmm?"

An elven slave or some such can be a likely target for racial hatred, while a human slave won't be ... that seems like common sense to me.

But you were talking about mul or dwarven slaves ... I in that case, I would imagine that a mul or dwarf would be more respected as a bulk beast of labor or combatant (for folks who can't afford half giants anyway) but a human slave might very well be considered more intelligent ... I mean to say for example ... I bet the slaves of House Voryek who compiled the history of the known world were not muls or dwarves ... and I bet that wasn't a coincidence.

But speaking of that ... anyone else think it's weird that slaves compiled that history? Does that mean they taught them how to write? 

But anywho ... talking about dwarves ... I don't see them in game getting as much crap as elves either hence, I was curious about where the game stood in regards to them. I think I have much better idea now. Thanks everybody!

[RogueGunslinger]

I think it's a matter of, the more useful your slave is, the more you respect it. Which is why some Muls tend to have a lot of respect.

[musashi]

I think it's a matter of, the more useful your slave is, the more you respect it. Which is why some Muls tend to have a lot of respect.

Since slaves are living I was always inclined to think of them more like breed stock than an object ... so usefulness might take a back seat to pedigree ... now what constitutes good pedigree is wide open for debait though, and I freely admit I'm no expert, having never played a character involved with slaves on any level.

[X-D]

For the record, Dwarves are not less intelligent then the other races. They are less flexible in thought  and thought pattern. Tending to stick with a certain path to the goal rather then be willing to look for something easier/faster etc. Hence the lower wisdom score IG. Since wisdom  in arm is the culmination of many mental abilities in arm. Like agility covers multiples as well as endurance.

The docs state Less wise, not less smart. Half-giants are less smart.

As to this.

I bet the slaves of House Voryek who compiled the history of the known world were not muls or dwarves

I'd actually bet that many of them were. A dwarf slave who has had his focus pointed in the direction of compiling histories would in fact do so with perfect accuracy. There really could be no better slave to do so.

Muls would not be wasted on such things, nor would they be used in mines. A well conditioned/trained mul is considered the best combat slave,  and, as the docs state, pleasure slaves as well. In any of the slaving houses, muls also fetch the highest price. I've never heard of one going for less then 5,000 and normaly 2-5 times that. Where as Elves normaly go for less then 1000 (pretty much anything fetches a higher price, even a lame gortok)

[musashi]

I never meant to imply that dwarves were less intelligent than humans, and I don't believe that anyone else posting meant to either. However, the many people seem to believe that the average Human sterotype towards dwarves in the game is that they're less intelligent, and that makes sense to me.

I'd actually bet that many of them were. A dwarf slave who has had his focus pointed in the direction of compiling histories would in fact do so with perfect accuracy. There really could be no better slave to do so.

Sadly ... I doubt if the person who buys a dwarf slave gets to tell them what their focus is going to be  So that arguement might not hold quite as much water as you'd think.

[RogueGunslinger]

I never meant to imply that dwarves were less intelligent than humans, and I don't believe that anyone else posting meant to either. However, the many people seem to believe that the average Human sterotype towards dwarves in the game is that they're less intelligent, and that makes sense to me.

I'd actually bet that many of them were. A dwarf slave who has had his focus pointed in the direction of compiling histories would in fact do so with perfect accuracy. There really could be no better slave to do so.

Sadly ... I doubt if the person who buys a dwarf slave gets to tell them what their focus is going to be  So that arguement might not hold quite as much water as you'd think.

Most slaves are bred. So I think it would be pretty easy to force a focus on one.

Edit: For redundancy.

[musashi]

Most slaves are bred into it. So I think it would be pretty easy to force a focus on one.

Eh ... I don't think that's something you can really debate since it's entirely subjective. I'm just saying I sort of doubt Pavlov's theory of classical conditioning has developed much in Zanthalas given that we still fight each other with bits of wood and rock, so I'm a little skeptical on how sopfisicated or effective the slavers' mental condition regimes would be.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Most slaves are bred into it. So I think it would be pretty easy to force a focus on one.

Eh ... I don't think that's something you can really debate since it's entirely subjective. I'm just saying I sort of doubt Pavlov's theory of classical conditioning has developed much in Zanthalas given that we still fight each other with bits of wood and rock, so I'm a little skeptical on how sopfisicated or effective the slavers' mental condition regimes would be.

I'm not sure the mental conditioning would matter all that much.  If a dwarf is bred as a slave and brought up around nothing but the task/subject to which you'd like their focus to be related, it's a pretty sure bet that they're going to wind up with a focus at least related to it; what else do they even know?  It might be a pain in the ass to keep them supervised enough up to that point, but I'd bet the results are worth it.

[Fnord]

It says somewhere in the docs that dwarves were probably a slave race at some point, but in modern Zalanthas most seem to be as free as the next commoner. They might get more shit than humans, but no where as much as breeds or elves. Hell, some noble Houses in the south will even employ a stump.

[musashi]

Most slaves are bred into it. So I think it would be pretty easy to force a focus on one.

Eh ... I don't think that's something you can really debate since it's entirely subjective. I'm just saying I sort of doubt Pavlov's theory of classical conditioning has developed much in Zanthalas given that we still fight each other with bits of wood and rock, so I'm a little skeptical on how sopfisicated or effective the slavers' mental condition regimes would be.

I'm not sure the mental conditioning would matter all that much.  If a dwarf is bred as a slave and brought up around nothing but the task/subject to which you'd like their focus to be related, it's a pretty sure bet that they're going to wind up with a focus at least related to it; what else do they even know?  It might be a pain in the ass to keep them supervised enough up to that point, but I'd bet the results are worth it.

I feel like that's one of those things that really eays to say, and impossible to do. I mean, just imagine taking your child and trying to make sure they only get exposed to what you want them to get exposed to ... that outside influence just creeps in I think. Sure you might get some dwarven slaves to focus on what you wanted them to, but I doubt it could be done with any regularity, since they are as we have been saying, every bit as intelligent as a human. I could be wrong though ... wouldn't be the first time!

[RogueGunslinger]

Most slaves are bred into it. So I think it would be pretty easy to force a focus on one.

Eh ... I don't think that's something you can really debate since it's entirely subjective. I'm just saying I sort of doubt Pavlov's theory of classical conditioning has developed much in Zanthalas given that we still fight each other with bits of wood and rock, so I'm a little skeptical on how sopfisicated or effective the slavers' mental condition regimes would be.

Don't mistake Zalanthas for an unsophisticated world. We use rocks and bone because that is what we have. We are not primitive. We have been around for a long time.

That said, I don't see how anything you posted above had to do with my post. When all you have ever done is serve, don't you think that your focus is going to be motivated around that?

I feel like that's one of those things that really eays to say, and impossible to do. I mean, just imagine taking your child and trying to make sure they only get exposed to what you want them to get exposed to ... that outside influence just creeps in I think. Sure you might get some dwarven slaves to focus on what you wanted them to, but I doubt it could be done with any regularity, since they are as we have been saying, every bit as intelligent as a human. I could be wrong though ... wouldn't be the first time!

Raising a child, and raising a slave are two COMPLETELY different things. You make sure a slaves world is only that of slaving. Once that fails, they stop becoming a slave, and start getting ideals and thoughts of their own. Outside influence to a slave is usualy foreign, and strange. Something to be mistrusted.

In any case we have a whole topic on slavery and we're off topic.

[musashi]

Right. The bit on dwarves was already pretty much answered for me.

EDIT: By the by reading the first little blurb on slavery and slaves from the website answered my above question for me:

In Allanak, slaves are everywhere. The Houses (whether noble or merchant) make use of slaves in many everyday operations, whether as domestic help, crafters, messengers, guards, or even scribes (where allowed by Highlord Tektolnes).

So yeah, guess those Voryek slaves /could/ read and write.

[Southie]

Slaves in Allanak (and Tuluk, as far as I know) are allowed to be literate in some special cases. They're usually scribes and bookkeeping slaves. Being literate obviously makes them far more expensive than your average slave and much better protected as a result. I think all literate slaves would probably be human, due to racial prejudices and stereotypes in Zalanthas if nothing else. I suppose you could have a literate dwarven slave, I've just never heard of one.

[musashi]

That's what I was thinking too. The docs even go on to state that for a noble, owning a slave of your own species is a sign of pretige above and beyond owning any other type. Muls are generally too expensive (not just to buy, but to maintain) for anyone to own individually, and almost all half-giant slaves are properity of the state, or so the help file said.

However, to be fair, the docs also said that dwarven slaves who have been raised up in captivity can be very loyal due to their spiritual like foci. It didn't say anything about being able to condition their focus to a certain task for yourself (like the urge to document history as was mentioned above) it just said that if you raise them from birth they end up being fiercely loyal to their master ... and on the flip side, captured dwarves who were not raised from birth are probably worse than elves since their focus will likely have nothing to do with serving the master in question.

But as RGS already mentioned, that's all pretty off topic since I was asking about how humans view dwarves at large in Zanthalas, and we got that cleared up pretty early on.

Still good information though. After reading through all the help files I'm actually pretty interested in playing a slave for my next character. Sounds like a vastly different approach to the game.

[Qzzrbl]

I'm gonna tame me a halfling slave.... 

[musashi]

I'm gonna tame me a halfling pleasure slave.... 

Fixed 

[Qzzrbl]

I'm gonna tame me a halfling pleasure slave.... 

Fixed