It's Sunday

[Barzalene]

Go vote at RPImud.com

[Barzalene]

Never mind. Tomorrow. But if you didn't vote last week you can vote today and then tomorrow.

[Gunnerblaster]

Done & done.

[ditchhook]

Link?

I hope it's not one of those voting links at the top of this page. I hit those every day.

[Barzalene]

http://rpimud.com/

[Ourla]

Done & done.

[Mood]

Someone wrote a new review!

A very good idea with a bad implementation. Armageddon is known for its apathetic staff and its cliches. Outside of staff run clans the world is harsh, unforgiving, and buggy as hell.
   
The world of Zalanthas is bare with its hard sun eating away at its inhabitants. This isn't very different from the meta-game on Armageddon. Spend days waiting for a staff response; weeks sometimes hoping some plot will turn up and when it does hope and pray the players around you aren't going to freak out and ruin the experience.

While it does have its charms the amount of bugs, incomplete features, and staff that clearly don't care about anything outside the 10-20 players they know from their real life, Armageddon MUD is good for a week or two before the deadness of the world gets to you.

Don't waste your time. There are a handful of other RPI muds that are worth playing. This isn't one of them.

Posted By veryalien on 04/10/2008

[Yam]

Oh no.

But he was such an endearing character on the forum.

[veryalien]

That's my honest take on it. I don't play anymore and will likely not be playing since I already know any amount of apping won't get my anywhere.

I'm just saving people some time. Yam messaged me about it like I'm some sort of criminal for not being a shill on these sites and just putting lots of badly written positive reviews.

The game has problems. It's had problems for fifteen years of its operation at one point holding the dubious honor of being the most corrupt MUD in existence which was quite a feat when there were more MUDs to shake a stick at during the 90s. I wouldn't come near it then. Believe me when I tell you it was a shameful stain on the mudding world.

I made the mistake of coming to play a couple of years ago and then quickly realizing my worst fears were true.  Two years later I came back to see if Arm 2 is out and found the admins had taken some steps to fixing things like the request tool. I quickly realized within a month it just wasn't enough. Of course Arm 2 isn't out and it's not going to be out for a while. When it does come out even less people will care and the staff will likely have even more apathetic people on board.

Watch some highlord post here all angry trying to rationalize this failure of a project. Brew/poison code still buggy after six years of it being brought up. I bugged/idea'd the heck out of things and found nothing was recognized. I read Sanvean's FAQ on Karma and found it was contradicted by other staffers. I roleplayed only to find some folks are no better than angry children (especially those actually RUNNING clans out of all things).

You want a review? I'll get you a review. Shit I'll get you a review this afternoon if you want one.

[Yam]

You're a criminal for worse things than that.

[veryalien]

Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism at least it was an ethos.

[Malken]

In before the lock.

[Only He Stands There]

That's my honest take on it. I don't play anymore and will likely not be playing since I already know any amount of apping won't get my anywhere.

That attitude is a pretty lame one to take. "Won't get you anywhere?" You can, y'know, roleplay no matter what you app. And you can get into a number of incredibly fun roles doing so.

I roleplayed only to find some folks are no better than angry children (especially those actually RUNNING clans out of all things).

Funny, I tend to find the vast majority of PCs in leadership positions are there because, well, they deserve them. ICly. God forbid we roleplay instead of OOCly promote people who don't ICly belong in the position just 'cause it makes your stay in that clan sunshine and roses. God forbid the LEADERS THEMSELVES actually roleplay (instead of being nameless, faceless Boromir-esque clan leader #34525).

You want a "corrupt" and incredibly shameful RPI, I can point you in other directions. And since I've staffed on no fewer than three others, one for nearly three years which culminated in me being head admin... yeah, I can point you in the RIGHT direction.

[veryalien]

These "leaders" would spaz out and start firing people when they had a bad day. It was certainly just OOC crap. I'm not the first player to complain about it.

In fact go through my post history to find the thread discussing it. Hilarity ensued as "leaders" began to show their true colors getting all mad and telling people to shove it.

[Only He Stands There]

I'm familiar with the thread. Looking back over it... it looks like you're the one complaining about sucky leaders, and everyone else (that is, virtually every other participant of the thread) was saying, basically, that YMMV. I don't see anyone telling anyone to shove it.

Once again, though - if someone "spazzes out and starts firing people"... this is Zalanthas. They're roleplaying a character. If your character is expendable enough to their clan that they can just go apeshit and fire you... that's perfectly within their right. Marginalizing and threatening is how people get things done in some clans, especially people of lesser races or class than them. Most importantly of all, it's completely IC and not due to "drama."

The only drama is when someone takes a perfectly IC situation and drags it OOC to hash out on the boards.

[Vesperas]

Children, stop feeding the trolls.  They'll only follow us home.  ^.-

[veryalien]

You should read the thread again. Plenty of people complained.

Anyway I don't care. I wrote the review since the last time I wrote a review things changed. You like to just kiss ass and act like every thing's honkey dorey. Thanks for making Arma worse. Glad I found other MUDs to occupy my time.

Keep playing this hacked up barely working Diku MUD. Keep claiming it rocks. Really, you're only hurting yourself.

[Shalooonsh]

This discussion is getting pretty heated.

Everyone has an opinion, and has a right to it.  We may not agree with it.  Personally, I try to be very empathetic to any player's concerns, and have never heard yours voiced, veryalien.  I'm sorry you consider the staff here apathetic and cliche, but I can assure you, we're not. 

There are several very good points above, but the overriding one I would like to focus on here is the point by Only He Stands There: 

no matter what you app. And you can get into a number of incredibly fun roles doing so.

I don't know what you tried to app, but there are certain classes which we're all familiar with which have kind of a 'big guns' feeling.  We don't like giving big guns to unproven players, and it's that simple.  Looking at your account, there's not too much in the way of notation, and it's not precisely an account that has been around for a while.  Both of these factors weigh heavily on our choices to approve or deny a special application.  Would you hand a loaded gun to someone who's intentions you didn't know at all?  We wouldn't.

You could be the next Sargax Kurac for player quality.  You could have a great depth of character, a terrific grasp of a PC's psyche, and you could portray all those things very, very well.  You may be someone who looks at Armageddon like it's a WoW grindfest where you're trying to collect silver-tipped gith spears instead of... whatever you grind on WoW.  You may, and more likely, not be either of these things, but somewhere in between.  The problem is, as we do not have experience with you, we do not know.

I'm sorry your experiences on Armageddon have soured you, veryalien, and I hope someday you do reverse your decision and come back to play with us again.

Everyone on this conversation, I would appreciate it if a bit more respect was given to any of the opinions voiced here.  I'm going to leave the thread open and trust that you are all mature enough to move onward and continue to discuss instead of bicker.

[Nyr]

I accidentally locked this thread when I logged into it.  Continue posting, by all means. 

[Gimfalisette]

You should read the thread again. Plenty of people complained.

I was one of those who "complained" in that thread. Except I wasn't "complaining," because for over half my time in ARM I've -played- a leader, both of the apped kind and the non-apped kind. (Therefore I'm in no position to "complain" about leaders.) What I was doing was noting that the current system of apped leadership, plus lifeterm clan jobs, leads to an environment of non-competition for both leaders and minions, and also to a large quantity of players choosing to play outside the current clan structure and remain independent. The thread was about pay for clanned characters, and pay for clanned characters is ONE of the hot issues that leads to many, many, many characters staying independent.

I never said, "ARM leaders suck," or "ARM staffers suck." If you thought that's what I was saying, you were quite wrong.

[Barzalene]

People feel how they feel. And that's fine.

To VA one thing that may have had an impact that perhaps you didn't take into account are the biases, that are acted on in game. Had you played the same pc the same way with a different choice of races your life may have been very different. It might not. But those biases aren't an indication of ooc corruption.

[Ghost]

Can we get a link to that leadership thread?

[Barzalene]

Oh, and more topically, everyone but VA... go vote.

[Gimfalisette]

Can we get a link to that leadership thread?

Pretty sure he meant this one: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30259.0.html

[veryalien]

I don't know what you tried to app, but there are certain classes which we're all familiar with which have kind of a 'big guns' feeling.  We don't like giving big guns to unproven players, and it's that simple.  Looking at your account, there's not too much in the way of notation, and it's not precisely an account that has been around for a while.  Both of these factors weigh heavily on our choices to approve or deny a special application.  Would you hand a loaded gun to someone who's intentions you didn't know at all?  We wouldn't.

I did contribute though. No one paid attention. If you go back a couple of weeks 2 submissions by me were implemented. My character always RP'd, and always tried within the IC constraints to be helpful to players. The problem is no one cared and I got told I should go back to a clan in order to get anyone to hand out karma or take notice. The last time I was in a clan, and I shit you not, I got fired on the spot for absolutely nothing. There are no IC details because it was just a whim. Someone got too excited and decided to lash out at me.

I mean it was really just abuse. I'm pretty sure a Storyteller was there too and again, the apathetic storyteller paid no attention to how badly the whole situation was roleplayed.

This is a game for staff, their friends, and family. Everyone else queues up with the request tool and hope and prays they can play a role that doesn't involve snoozing in taverns all day. I've seen players suicide their characters out of boredom from sitting in taverns all day. One guy at least had the courtesy to roleplay it. I've seen players act completely oblivious to this even though they were friends to the character.

Heck, the one thing you can count on in Armageddon is when there's even the slightest reason to get hostile toward someone everyone will line up and engage in hostilities. It's like everyone is sitting around waiting to grief out of sheer boredom.

[Mood]

The last time I was in a clan, and I shit you not, I got fired on the spot for absolutely nothing. There are no IC details because it was just a whim. Someone got too excited and decided to lash out at me.

Could it be that, just maybe, there were in-character motivations there that you weren't privy to?

[Fathi]

I mean it was really just abuse. I'm pretty sure a Storyteller was there too and again, the apathetic storyteller paid no attention to how badly the whole situation was roleplayed.

While refraining from comment on the IC events in question, I would like to point something out: this is just my opinion, but I honestly don't believe it's a Storyteller's job to step in and play RP police in a situation like that. One of the things I like the most about Arma versus other games I've played is the fact that staff lets players "do their own thing."

If you believe someone's RP was completely out of line, contradictory to the documentation, or abusive on an OOC level, you can always file a player complaint. I've had several positive experiences when it comes to discussing player complaints with the staff, and they have access to information that us players don't that often sheds light on the situation at hand.

I would find it very jarring and I'd be rather ticked off if, in the middle of a scene, a Storyteller popped up, stopped the clocks, and gave us all a lecture on how we were roleplaying wrong. So in this case, I'd say the staffers in question who may or may not have been watching were perfectly justified in not stepping in to correct someone else's behaviour. If the staff sees something particularly awful or inconsistent about my roleplay, I trust that they'll email me or let me know in some other way rather than disrupting the flow of a scene.

[Malken]

When all else fails, believe in Sanvean.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

veryalien wrote:

This is a game for staff, their friends, and family.

This is, quite simply, not true. I'm living proof.
I've never been to an APM (Armageddon Player's Meeting). I've never knowingly spoken with a staff member about anything not directly relating to Armageddon. I don't even know their real names. I am, decidedly, an outsider here. If I passed a staff member or even another player on the street, we wouldn't recognize each other.
And yet I have six karma. I've obtained leadership positions in clans. I've had numerous special applications accepted. I even worked on staff briefly (and, still, did not become buddies with any of them). My relations with the staff have been nothing but prompt and respectful. Certainly not "corrupt". And, no, I didn't always get what I wanted, and when I was turned down for a role or denied information, I was given several good reasons why.
It sounds like maybe you were just a bit impatient, veryalien. The main difference between you and I, I think, is that I've been playing here for about six or seven years. I didn't receive my first account note until I'd played for about a year straight with a fairly long-lived character. You have get noticed first, and that takes time.
Sure, it's not a perfect system. Some bad players go unnoticed (for a time), and some good players slip through the cracks. But this isn't because the system is 'corrupt', it isn't because the staff are handing steel longswords to their girlfriends behind closed doors. It's simply that the staff are volunteers. And, you know, human.

[veryalien]

Well I know for a fact that that player is sitll in game, he's still abusing people, and a couple of players log off when he's on in fear that he'll just kick them out again.

It took me two weeks to get my EMPTY account notes, you think a player complaint would have worked. Hey, maybe you know someone. I don't. When I tried to wish up to get an NPC to animate no one replied. Two minutes later, someone walks up, OOCs that they're wishing for animation and KEBANG the NPC gets animated. Do you really think at this stage I'm going to file complaints? Would you?

Look folks. It's one of two things. Either the staff isn't doing it's job well or they they just help out friends and people they know ignoring everyone else.

I had one staffer animate only to send me directly into an NPC that almost killed me. That's when I asked for storage and just quit this game.

Two weeks to get empty account notes folks. I'm happy to hear an explanation of that one but I don't think there is a good one.

EDIT: Agree on the volunteer part btw. And do thank them for their time but the quality just wasn't there. There's too many things that are broken, and responses take such an extremely long amount of time (2 WEEKS FOR EMPTY ACCOUNT NOTES PLEASE SOMEONE EXPLAIN HOW THAT HAPPENED).

[Barzalene]

Maybe I should open another thread. About voting. On RPI mud. For players who don't hate us.

[Yam]

I don't really know of anyone who has received account notes after two weeks of play.

I have two or three. Only one of them semi-pertains to actions in the game. The rest are simply notifications from one staff member to another about special things.

And I've been playing for much longer than you have.

You're angry now. Cool off. Come back. Look at the situation again.

[veryalien]

I never came here to bad mouth the game. I got messaged by Yam and came here to see you guys discussing my review. I'm taking the time to respond to it.

Feel free to open fifty threads as long as I'm not involved in it I won't reply.

EDIT:

I have been playing for a while now. Maybe over two months total. I put in a request for account notes TWO WEEKS AGO. I got an empty reply back with just my characters listed. The request took that long to process: Capache?


EDIT2: And Yam don't ask me to go away after you message me to come see this thread. Really man, have a little class at least.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

It sounds like maybe you were just a bit impatient, veryalien.

Two months ("total") is really not very long at all. Most people don't have account notes, good or bad, after only two months. If it'd been six months, maybe you would've had a case. Notice that you can only request account notes once every six months. Ever wonder why that is? Probably because you're unlikely to get a new note ever month, or every two months, or every three months.
Two weeks is a little long for an account note request. What probably happened was that it got a little lost in the clutter, and was therefore late. You would have been totally within your right to send a short, polite e-mail to the Mud after the first week, reminding them about your request. But you didn't. So it took them another week to catch the mistake.

[veryalien]

trying one more time because i think you're just not reading right or by some subconscious effort you want to argue with me:

(1) I submit a request for account notes. Really on a whim.
(2) I wait 1 week. Staffer takes 1 week to pull it up.
(3) Staffer takes 1 week to edit it.
(4) I'm thinking cool, so they had to edit a bunch of stuff.
(5) I get a list of characters and no notes.

This tells me there's only one possible explanation. The staffer took a whole week to change his bong water before realizing the notes are empty and didn't need editing. The entire request could have been fulfilled on the spot because there are no account notes.

How's your deductive logic working today?

[Nyr]

Doing well for two months is well and good, but it is a short period of time even so.  Notes are given on an account over time.  It is unrealistic to expect a lot (or anything) out of a relatively short period of time.  No account notes are better than bad account notes.  Even so, a Highlord or higher has to go into your notes and remove anything specifically that you shouldn't know about.  They can't know there's nothing there unless they go in and look at it while they're sitting there doing requests that only they can do.  (By the way, your request for notes did not take 2 weeks to be resolved: it was submitted only 6 days ago.  At the most, it took 6 days.) 

This also doesn't account for the many other requests submitted.

Staffers have to go through bug reports and review whether or not the situation was in fact a bug.  In some of your submitted cases (I took the time to look at them the last time you brought this up) these were not bugs.  Either the bug could not be duplicated or it was a feature instead.

As for your concerns about there being no IC motivation for your PC to get fired from whatever job your PC had, please rest assured that the entire situation was IC.

I'm sorry that you feel the way that you do and if you have any specific complaints, please submit them through the request tool.

[Belenos]

I am locking this thread.  It is very mean spirited and as such it will not be allowed.

That being said, this is not about someone's opinion of the game, it is how you go about stating said opinion.

This is a game for staff, their friends, and family. Everyone else queues up with the request tool and hope and prays they can play a role that doesn't involve snoozing in taverns all day. I've seen players suicide their characters out of boredom from sitting in taverns all day. One guy at least had the courtesy to roleplay it. I've seen players act completely oblivious to this even though they were friends to the character.

This is a very disingenuous statement, and smacks heavily of sour grapes.  I'm always suspicious of people's motives when they spew statements that have no basis in fact, and seek to demean character and integrity as the main thrust of the argument.  Many people have friends and family playing, players and staff, go figure.

Here is a bit of unsolicited advice, if you don't like playing, then don't play.  The game is free, free to play, free to move on if you don't like it.  No one is twisting your arm to stay.