Economy and Market

[racingspider]

Hey, in general, I've noticed that when I play there are between 20-50 players on at one time. I was wondering a couple things:
1) How 'robust' is the economy?
What I mean by this, is there enough of a complete circle of PCs for any specific stage? So...
if I'm a hunter, are there enough 'crafters' to buy the stuff (hides, bones, etc) that I skin?
if I'm a crafter are there enough consumers to buy the stuff that I craft? Shirts, armor, weapons, etc?
And are these crafters and consumers all PCs or should I sell to NPCs as well?

2) How do I sell raw/crafted materials?
can I post on the board? Am I supposed to just shout in the taverns? Do I try to locate a house member and see about selling to them? The reason I ask this, is because I'm not entirely convinced that there are enough players to create a thriving economy.
This is actually more a question of about HOW the economy works, not so much about IC selling.

3) How does money come INTO the game?
Ok, I start the game with, say 900 sid. I buy gear from the NPC crafters and say I'm down to 100. I hunt and skin something. I sell that skin to a crafter PC. He tans the hide or whatever, can he now sell that tanned hide for MORE (than the value of an untanned hide) to an NPC?
Lets say I have a hide that an NPC offers 20 sid for. If I sell that hide to a player for 20 sid, and he tans it, he can sell it to the same NPC for more than 20 (because its value has gone up). This would bring money into the economy. So, that's really my question, how well established is the supply/demand of the player base in this game?

Hopefully all of that made sense.

[Marauder Moe]

1) How 'robust' is the economy?
What I mean by this, is there enough of a complete circle of PCs for any specific stage? So...
if I'm a hunter, are there enough 'crafters' to buy the stuff (hides, bones, etc) that I skin?
if I'm a crafter are there enough consumers to buy the stuff that I craft? Shirts, armor, weapons, etc?
And are these crafters and consumers all PCs or should I sell to NPCs as well?

I would say no, there is generally not a complete "circle" of PCs for this.  If there is, they probably all work for Salarr or Kadius and don't really sell anything but finished products to outside PCs.

2) How do I sell raw/crafted materials?
can I post on the board? Am I supposed to just shout in the taverns? Do I try to locate a house member and see about selling to them?

I wouldn't post on the board.  The fact that Amos the Grebber has more rocks to sell is not very interesting to most people.

I wouldn't shout in the taverns either.  They're taverns, not marketplaces, and you're probably just going to annoy people.  At most just sit down at the bar and mention once that you've got materials to sell.

You can try selling to merchant houses, but probably either they'll want to just hire you or they already have enough of their own hunters/grebbers.

The reason I ask this, is because I'm not entirely convinced that there are enough players to create a thriving economy.
This is actually more a question of about HOW the economy works, not so much about IC selling.

There aren't enough players to create a thriving economy.

3) How does money come INTO the game?

NPC shops, clan leader stipends, and new characters.

EDIT: and NPCs that load with money to steal or otherwise take from.

So, that's really my question, how well established is the supply/demand of the player base in this game?

It's pretty much not established at all.

Hopefully all of that made sense.

Hopefully I haven't completely crushed yours (or anyone else's) dreams. 

[a strange shadow]

I've managed, several times, to create a network of supply and demand among PCs to fill every level from raw material to finished product, but it's fragile. When one buyer/supplier dies, the whole web comes apart until you manage to find another set of willing and capable PCs. I find that most of them tend to prefer the ease of interacting with NPCs.

[Fathi]

I've managed, several times, to create a network of supply and demand among PCs to fill every level from raw material to finished product, but it's fragile. When one buyer/supplier dies, the whole web comes apart until you manage to find another set of willing and capable PCs. I find that most of them tend to prefer the ease of interacting with NPCs.

Truth.

I'd say the biggest problem with setting up networks like Shadow's done, from my experience, is a lack of available, dedicated crafter PCs.

You end up with large amounts of hunter/grebber PCs selling to NPCs because there simply aren't enough crafter PCs to sell to, even if you try selling to organisations. Kadius, Salarr, Kurac, tribes, and indie groups aren't going to be very likely to buy raw materials unless it's something spectacular or rare because they've all got their own hunter/grebber staff that just piles on the raw materials because they, too, are suffering from a lack of crafters.

In the end, the supply of hunted/gathered materials far outweighs the PC demand, so PC hunters choose to sell to NPCs for convenience, or because they need their rent money reliably quicker than they can connect with a crafter who'd actually buy their stuff.

[Malken]

I manage to make a good profit with buying from other PCs, turning what I buy into products that I then (sadly) have to sell to NPCs.

By now, I would say that it's safe to say that for 5 raw materials that I buy (from PCs), I can always come up with at least 1 or 2 products that will pay for the rest of what I bought, which then allows me to buy from other PCs at a more
than fair price and without ruining myself, but that is very hard for a new player to do, I would think, since you need to know what sells and for how much, and where to sell it.

It's also sad to say that there is no way that I can pay the price that some NPC shops will offer to you for your raw material, and too many players are quick to say that it's unfair that merchant PCs don't buy more than
they should from other PCs when a majority of the players will first go to the NPC shops to sell their materials THEN seek out merchant PCs when the 5x items limit has been reached in that shop.

There is sadly no way, in my experience, that I could ever manage to buy from PCs only and then SELL to PCs only and not totally ruin myself. The PC to PC economy just doesn't work, and probably never will until weapons, armors and clothes start breaking down. I would even make cooking a lot more useful, in the way that great cooks should be able to make recipes that give slight bonuses to stat that lasts for a couple of hours, and make sure that those recipes are able to be done by cook PCs only. The clan food vending machines would still be around, but if you wanted those little bonushes to your stats and maybe health and stamina regen, you'd have to seek out master cooks, and then both would start having reasons to trade in meats and such. Right now, I mostly only buy food from other PCs for 'prop' reasons.

What makes me enjoy my current role the most is when I find a few good hunter PCs who are willing to offer me fair prices, it's not unheard of that I will then buy an almost unlimited amount of supply from them afterward.

[Lizzie]

One way of getting some PC-to-PC commerce going, is to spend a little time at the "parts shops" in town. Those would be the different shops that buy and sell raw materials. The first bit of research would be to see what the shop has right after reboot. The next bit of research is to see what they have a few RL days later. During this time, watch for people coming in to buy/sell. Are they selling more than they're buying? What items are they buying/selling? Make a mental note of anyone you can "see" (people not trying to hide their faces with hoods/wraps) who is trading there. Maybe use the Way to find their minds another day...or chat them up when you bump into them at the bar. You have already established that they -do- buy and/or sell, now you just need to get them to do this with you, instead of the NPC.

I have had some decent luck using this method in the past, though this would obviously be something for the more "aggressive" marketing strategies, and not so much for the "I'm a grebber and I don't want to work too hard at this" types.

[veryalien]

No offense to dedicated crafter types, but the crafting mini-game in Armageddon is meh. It's not horrible but it's essentially:

(1) Get an item.
(2) craft <item-name>
(3) craft <item-name> <item-name> <item-name> <item-name>...

keep going trying different combinations.

If you see something pretty get it and type analyze <item-name>

So on and so forth.

I could be wrong since I never spent an exceptional amount of time outside of making a few basic items for myself but this is all very meh no matter how often you emote. It's like fishing in WoW. Not much to do so having a character DEDICATED to this is fairly meh.

Compare this with stalking through the desert in some cool gear with some cool shit in your hands killing some unpredictable new mob you haven't tried before and I think you start to see why crafters are meh. As a word of warning I wouldn't try  to make crafting anymore fun. I'd add the ability to analyze items to see what you could make out of it to make it more usable but stop there. Then make it so being a dedicated crafter isn't necessary for the economy. Most of your players, probably, won't be on playing their crafters as much as their desert stalking bad ass.

With all that said I don't know what the demographics are.

[Nyr]

I think that reasoning can be applied to virtually every skill or class in the game.  Some people won't like certain roles, and some people won't like roleplaying them. 
Conversely, some people like certain roles, and like roleplaying them.

The people in those roles roleplaying crafters love crafting and love doing that...at least, one would hope so.
Maybe they are in their role as a crafter because they want to do something for some roleplayed, intended purpose and are using their crafting to achieve that end.

After all, isn't that what Armageddon is about?  Interaction, roleplay, and the chance to steal someone's boots eat someone's brains?

[Gimfalisette]

No offense to dedicated hunter types, but the hunting mini-game in Armageddon is meh. It's not horrible but it's essentially:

(1) e
(2) kill scrab
(3) skin scrab

keep going trying large beetle-type animals.

If you see something different follow it and type kill <creature-name>

So on and so forth.

I like crafting. I like it very, very much. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only player who does.

The PC-to-PC economy has some flaws, however, which others have put forth above.

[veryalien]

Far more involved than that my friend. Far more. But I'd be giving out IC info if I got into the details.

Regardless, if you guys really want to compare the crafter "gameplay" to the other gameplay in this game and claim it's more interesting or on par in terms of fun then go ahead. As a desert stalking type one can RP, craft a bit, kill stuff, explore, and get into the political intrigue if they want to. As a crafter living in the city I don't think you have as many choices.

Shit man. I can't imagine playing any other role other than a magicker or psionist.

[Marauder Moe]

Crafters can't RP or get into political intrigue? 

Shit, I wish I'd knew that for the last merchant/aide/schemer I played.  I must have made a complete asshole of myself.  Sorry everyone.   

[Gimfalisette]

You suck, Moe.

...if you guys really want to compare the crafter "gameplay" to the other gameplay in this game and claim it's more interesting or on par in terms of fun then go ahead.

I'm not claiming to know what's fun for you. I'm just trying to point out that the things you find fun do not define Fun in its entirety. Other people have different preferences. (Amazing, yet true!)

[veryalien]

Crafters can't RP or get into political intrigue? 

Shit, I wish I'd knew that for the last merchant/aide/schemer I played.  I must have made a complete asshole of myself.  Sorry everyone.   

I never said they couldn't. My point, if you really want to understand it, is that a desert travellin' hunter type or a warrior just gets to do that and more.

[Marauder Moe]

And you're completely convinced that there's not a single thing whatsoever that a city-dwelling crafting type can do that a desert traveling hunter or warrior can't?

[veryalien]

I'll come back to this thread when it stops tanning itself on the beaches by De Nile

[Marauder Moe]

Heck, that merchant character of mine did travel an explore.  He visited every non-secret, open settlement in the game.  Had tons of stories about fighting creatures from cutting down lowly gortoks to fighting demons side by side with black-robed templars.  To me seems like he did all that stuff your character does... and more.  Plotted assassinations, schemed to overthrow entire organizations, played cards with nobles... things a dirty hunter would never have been given the chance to do.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and he could make silk shirts too.  Can your hunter do that?  Well enough to turn a profit? 

[Nyr]

This is not the "Bitch about <insert guild/subguild>" thread, or is it the "Bitch about why my <insert guild/mindset> is better or worse than <insert your guild/mindset" thread.

Get back to the topic at hand, please.  If you must debate something that is purely a basis of opinion rather than fact, then make another thread for it and don't post in this one.

[Marauder Moe]

Sorry.

I suppose, then, I should say that just because Arm doesn't have a PC-driven economy doesn't mean Arm doesn't have PCs in economic roles, or that those roles are somehow diminished by the fact that there is an essential NPC layer.

We do have a fantastic crafting system, with a LOT of recipes, even if only 15% of items are craftable.  I think there's as much exploring to do in the world of crafting as there is in the actual physical world of Zalanthas.  It's great when you find a source for a rare dye, or gemstone, or a whole new set of recipes you figured out by combining a certain ingredient with different colors of silk.

[Riev]

Firstly, Nyr, have my children.


Anyways, I think the economy is well done, but think about it. If you happen to have a buncha muncha cruncha rocks, and you go down to the Raley's, does anyone there care? But if you go there with some extravagant statue, or a polished marble necklace, they might be interested. The economy is fine, though sometimes I'm annoyed when the NPCs don't have enough money... but thats an OOC annoyance.


I think its kind of hard to sell a polished skipping stone to someone in a desert.

[Maybe42or54]

NPCs are just way too much competition for me.
They are around more than me, they are more dependable than me, they have a stall that you can go to, they have brand recognition, they have proven, and they don't have to carry it all on their back and hawk it to everybody that isn't obviously looking to buy something.

[jstorrie]

Carry stuff that the NPCs don't!

[Maybe42or54]

Most of the shit they carry that is awesome, I can't craft.
Most of the shit I can craft with the shit I found in the city makes generic items that PCs don't want.

A lot of the time, if I buy one thing and make it into multiples, I can't sell the multiples for more than what I bought the original for. Which forces me to go broke, or sell items PCs don't want to Pcs that don't want to spend their 6k 'sid on interaction.

[X-D]

I once had a ranger/armorcrafter who ONLY sold his finished goods to PCs.

He would also (after he was a bit advanced) Buy most of his raw materials from PCs. When he died, he had over 120k banked....I believe that was in about 6 months RL and around 38 days played.

[Riev]

While I don't tend to sell what I craft (Not that I've crafted this entire vacation I'm on), I -do- give it away to PCs as gifts or to show my skill at an art. Not so much to be hired by a company, but so when you give someone that perfectly carved carnelian and glass rose for their prom night or whatever it is you do, they -may- come back to you later wondering what else you can do for them.


But thats because I'm weird and don't do -normal- crafting. I can assume making a pair of wristguards made out of sand and fail doesn't sell well to NPCs who can go glass mining and buy a pair of bahamets themselves to sit on their wrists.