Chivalry in the 'rinth

[Indy]

Alright so I have to ask, what is with all the chivalry in the 'rinth?

I have seen a lot of people get mad about muggings lately, to the point it seems not ic, I mean there are groups a few rooms away doing the -exact- same thing.

If a person has no colors, no affiliation, and walks around with something of value in plain sight... can someone tell me why it is now some sin so great to mug them that even the ruffians of the 'rinth get hearts of gold?

I am not asking for the 'cause the people would amass against you' or 'people watch their alleys' answers because 9/10ths of the people complaining ic'ly know nothing about 'their' alleys ic'ly, do nothing to promote an economy in them (drug sales, fencing, feeding others that willingly wear their colors)

Again I point out the no colors thing, this is not some mugger attacking Sandas or the Blood, or even a mugger attacking people to poor to have anything of value.

So why the Chivalry? Does everyone have this urge to be the assassin with a heart of gold?

[Marauder Moe]

Find out IC?   

Or take your complaints to the proper venue.

[Synthesis]

ICly:
Sometimes, in order to maintain order in your own group, you must manufacture enemies. 

When you can create an us vs. them mentality, it's much easier to keep people focused and cohesive.  The 'rinth can be helluva boring sometimes, and when you get a chance, however -microscopically- small, to put a hurting on someone acting the fool, you take that chance.

Guess what?  The easiest people to mark as "them" are the guys running around being solo muggers.

It's not chivalry, it's Armageddon-style human resource management, baby.

Also, a lot of time "solo muggers" don't want to pay their dues to the people who are made or part of a group already.  If you get uppity about someone coming to collect when you don't have a damn thing except your skillset and a few weapons to back you up...you're taking a very big gamble with your life.

Further, if you're coming up to the 'rinth to mug people, and then going back down to the city to have drinks at the Gaj...you've got a serious wake-up call coming.

OOCly:
When there are dudes running around blatantly attempting to max out their combat skills, hey...sometimes you gotta put those dudes down while they still suck.  Otherwise, you come back a week later and find out that they've maxed backstab/disarm/poisoning/whatever, and now you have a beast to worry about.  Since there are about a dozen easy ways to ICly justify hating on someone doing this, if -you're- doing it, expect to get hated on.

[Indy]

As for the find out IC answer, I am accusing people of acting OOC, therefore I cannot find out IC. To Synth's answer, while it makes sense, it is not quite what I mean.

The paying your dues goes under killing or fighting people with colors, or people that are in alleys known to belong directly to certain colors. I am talking about generic joe shmoe npc with slightly to much on them (if they are in anything except grimy gear they should expect trouble I think)

I have seen people tell my PC how he is horrible for it, then ignore the npcs that do it none stop all over the rinth. While that goes along with your need to find an enemy, when it comes at the point of making the rinth seem no different then some law zone, I think it is overdoing it.

People need to remember that mugging is a very important part of economy for people that do not venture southside to make coin, and do not have their magicker buddy chilling with them to supply food and water. I myself am often driven to it once I start getting hungry or thirsty (since in this mud you can die damn fast from it) so I hit the first unaffiliated person (pc or npc) with anything of value that looks like an easy mark. To me that is rinth life in its finest.

[Yam]

Rape them with knives.

In their backs.

[BlackMagic0]

Rape them with knives.

In their backs.

This good fella, stole my thoughts.

[Folker]

Sometimes, in the 'rinth ripping someone a new hole is the first step of recruiting that someone. It's all a matter of establishing a relationship, a connection. And making your character fear, hate, and owe them is a good beginning for a 'rinthie relationship. So take it easy, assume that whoever defended your victim will probably rob the victim himself, once you run off, and ponder on how to discourage that smug fuck from getting into your business next time.

[jstorrie]

If they're confronting your PC in-character, perhaps this is an issue your PC should address in-character?

[Kalden]

This should be addressed ICly. 'rinthers are perfectly justified in whining about being mugged. 'rinthers are also perfectly justified in mugging. If the muggee can find someone to defend them, good for them.

[Rhyden]

If you keep getting killed in the rinth and don't want to keep dying, don't play in the rinth.

[Indy]

If you keep getting killed in the rinth and don't want to keep dying, don't play in the rinth.

Whoa, who said anything about dying and apparently I am getting responses without people reading the posts. I am talking of -ZERO- ic situations right here. While it happens regularly, I am complaining and pointing out no specific ic scene. If it has or has not happened IC I will handle it. What I am talking about is how -everyone- I have run into plays this offended person I would mug someone. Yet they pretend the npcs muggers do not even exist, I find this to be a deterrent to my own rp.

[IC info removed by Vanth] Being that I am not going to go put in hours southside, I am obviously going to mug someone (no steal skill and no burglary skills means those are no nos also) Now this should be an everyday thing, yet people treat it like I am living in the noble quarter. I have already shot down the arguments of it is a gang thing, as the alleys involved are selected because no thriving gang claims them, the npcs -never- wear colors belonging to anyone, and the npcs are ic'ly realistic targets for a mugger (usually having some nice piece of gear that I can sell and fill an entire waterskin with)

Again look at the post, I am not talking of revenge, extortion, recruitment, or twink slaying. I am saying there is to much Chivalry in the rinth, people defending every npc, and only from other pcs. If you want to defend the pc, by all means claim the alley and get an admin to put your color on that npc, otherwise it makes no sense.

Using a RL example, I am a white male and I hang out in EPA with a couple friends. I have no business in some neighborhoods and will never enter there (or I may never leave) and other neighborhoods I go with my friends I know and mind my own business, being white I can not claim any group which means anyone could fight me and people would just watch (except my 'friends' who also would just watch if I was the screwball that started anything) I imagine the alleys to be a lot like the gang run slums and neighborhoods, am I mistaken in this? It was a major draw for me to make a rinther.

Since I typed a lot I will state again here in the end, not complaining, sure as heck haven't died once yet, not saying I shouldn't have to pay if I am in another's alley, not saying it is anything to be addressed ic'ly as I feel people are acting ooc with the situation. And -if- they confronted my PC IC, I will or would have dealt with it ic and would make no mention of it on the forums so please don't assume and respond with a post pointing in that direction. So to my original question, why don't people mind their own alleys and gang's business and leave a mugger alone, and if they are so noble, why are they not hunting npc muggers?


So far synth's answer of the ooc need to make an enemy to bond a group makes sense, but Synth is scary sinister and his gears are always churning, somehow I don't think that was the intention of -every- other person I have seen go aghast at the thought of me mugging someone to feed myself.

[Rhyden]

It was just a suggestion man. Your conflicts appear to be IC related, so you should probably deal with them IC. It's the Labyrinth. Anyone and everyone is game. Especially if you're not affiliated.

Not having too much is just about right for a rinthi. 

[Reiloth]

Please. Don't assume people are acting from an OOC motivation. Its insulting to people's RP. If you are honestly concerned that it is a breech of IC/OOC, email the staff.

In the 'rinth, I would almost always give benefit of the doubt to the PC's. There is probably a reason behind it. They aren't Knights in Shining Armor. Maybe they want to mug you in turn. Maybe you are an elf on human turf, or an elf on human turf, or maybe you're right in the middle, where either race is trying to gain a foothold. Maybe you smelled weird. Maybe they like making fun of you. Maybe they secretly have a desire to stop muggers, because they are a rapist, and its bad for buisness.

Who knows. Just deal with IC happenings IC. Assume they are IC, unless they are BLATANTLY ooc. Again, if this is true, email the mud account with logs. Speculating on the GDB will probably get you nothing more than a headache.

EDIT: Also to clarify, the 'rinth isn't like the projects in even Los Angeles. I lived near the projects in West Adams / Compton, and yes, while it was a shitty neighborhood, it was nowhere near what the 'rinth states even in the documents. I imagine it to be akin to the projects of France in the 70's x 10. Bodies and corpse-fucking insane people are abound. As is shit and trash, littering every square inch. Seeing someone wearing clean clothes is probably like seeing someone wearing gold silk. People die every day, and many, at that. It is a cesspool. Filthy. A militia walking into the Alleys would be ripped apart in minutes, in the daytime. It is scary during the day, and scarier at night. Drawing attention to yourself in any way shape or form is sketchy, at best.

I -do- agree to a point with you, however. Chivalry is a trait I would like to see near eliminated in a world like Zalanthas, especially in a place such as the Labyrinth. Sure, you can have friends in the Labyrinth. Power in numbers. But would you sleep around them? They'd more likely than not be talking about murdering you in your sleep, with their friend in the shadows. "Defenders of the Peace" in the Alleys rarely last long, as well as the psychopathic murderers. They simply do not fit in. It is a fight for survival, and few give a fuck about the next man.

[jstorrie]

If this isn't a complaint about a specific IC situation then I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Could you please make some sense and elaborate?

[Indy]

If this isn't a complaint about a specific IC situation then I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Could you please make some sense and elaborate?

To eleborate.

PC needs food, pc has no job so pc looks for something valuable. PC sees X (sometimes X is a PC and sometimes an npc) X bears -zero- gang affiliate, X is not wondering any major gang claimed alley, X is wearing stuff that can make a slummer almost two small (which is a large sum to my rinther) So my PC decides, well that gear obviously belongs to me, so and so shouldn't be wearing it wth no one at his back. PC attacks X.

Other People swarm the poor PC's mind about how he is some evil mugger, other people promise his death, at every turn he is outright SHUNNED because he chooses the life of a mugger over a pickpocket or burglar (being you can't be taught skills he is pretty much never going to be able to do either of those.)

I am giving up on this post because no more then 2 or 3 replies go before someone says something about dealing with it IC, I am not staying an IC event and I see 328742398742398 posts about in General Discussion about rp styles so I assumed it could be discussed here. No I am not going to bitch to an admin, I don't feel the players need to be reprimanded, I just feel that they are taking some wholesome values they recognize IRL, and adding them to their rinther PC. Again this would not be bad but -every- person does it. I have met only one elf that really makes me feel like I am in the rinth, I always assume they are going to kill me or rob e, and I hate the living fuck out of them, but they act like a rinther.

Everyone else I run into acts like they were some militia that has been assigned to the protection of the rinth. I see gang members out of their alleys protecting others. To me you would never leave your alley and draw attention protecting some guy in another alley, especially when you know neither combatant.


I guess what I am saying is the rinth feels to warm and fuzzy and every person is trying to fucking be archangel Gabriel, I brought this topic up to see if maybe it could get some discussion  . All I get are deal with it IC, or answers that I went into detail do not matter (not on gang area, the other person doesn't want to mug me or them, the npc or pc is unaffiliated, I am not being a psycho killer, I am not killing a race that I have no right touching in that alley)

[Marauder Moe]

PC needs food, pc has no job so pc looks for something valuable. PC sees X (sometimes X is a PC and sometimes an npc) X bears -zero- gang affiliate, X is not wondering any major gang claimed alley, X is wearing stuff that can make a slummer almost two small (which is a large sum to my rinther) So my PC decides, well that gear obviously belongs to me, so and so shouldn't be wearing it wth no one at his back. PC attacks X.

This sounds reasonable so far.

Other People swarm the poor PC's mind about how he is some evil mugger, other people promise his death, at every turn he is outright SHUNNED because he chooses the life of a mugger over a pickpocket or burglar (being you can't be taught skills he is pretty much never going to be able to do either of those.)

Have you not considered that perhaps your initial assessment that PC X had no affiliations was incorrect?

I am giving up on this post because no more then 2 or 3 replies go before someone says something about dealing with it IC, I am not staying an IC event and I see 328742398742398 posts about in General Discussion about rp styles so I assumed it could be discussed here. No I am not going to bitch to an admin, I don't feel the players need to be reprimanded, I just feel that they are taking some wholesome values they recognize IRL, and adding them to their rinther PC. Again this would not be bad but -every- person does it. I have met only one elf that really makes me feel like I am in the rinth, I always assume they are going to kill me or rob e, and I hate the living fuck out of them, but they act like a rinther.

You weren't starting a discussion, you were complaining.  Not only that, your complaint started with an assumption that people are suggesting is incorrect, but cannot elaborate too much further on it's flaws because doing so would reveal information not appropriate for this forum.  Saying "I'm accusing people of OOC behavior" doesn't excuse anyone from the rule of not revealing IC info.

Everyone else I run into acts like they were some militia that has been assigned to the protection of the rinth. I see gang members out of their alleys protecting others. To me you would never leave your alley and draw attention protecting some guy in another alley, especially when you know neither combatant.

Again, more assumptions that really should be dealt with either ICly or with the staff.  How do you know there isn't a secret militia trying to bring some order to the 'rinth, after all?

I guess what I am saying is the rinth feels to warm and fuzzy and every person is trying to fucking be archangel Gabriel, I brought this topic up to see if maybe it could get some discussion  . All I get are deal with it IC, or answers that I went into detail do not matter (not on gang area, the other person doesn't want to mug me or them, the npc or pc is unaffiliated, I am not being a psycho killer, I am not killing a race that I have no right touching in that alley)

The problem is the 'rinth is a very secretive place compared to other area's of the game.  It's full of criminal gangs, clandestine organizations, and other groups that are generally not known to the rest of the world, nor are they documented well, if at all.  Discussing these organizations or their effects on a given region of the game is inappropriate compared to, say, discussing the nobility of Allanak or Tuluk, which are widely known and documented.

You don't have to complain about a specific player, but there's nothing wrong with sending an email to the staff in general describing your concerns.  If they agree that something OOCly inappropriate is going on then they'll make the necessary adjustments (distributing a warning through clan forums or 'rinth PC leaders).

[Folker]

While I agree in majority with Moe, I must say that sometimes ... sometimes, after witnessing dozens of people (southies and rinthies) mugging (killing?) 'eeeeveryone' all over rinth, people tend to ... get overprotective of them all. A pendulum swings juuuust a little too far. Afterall, how are they supposed to 'believe' you only mug unaffiliated people? You were 'caught' mugging that one, but odds are ... you mug only npcs. And so on. I've seen it happen a few times. Were involved in 'reprisals' because the one who got me coloured got like that. I 'inquired' for some detail to get that character to elaborate his motivations a bit. Usually getting a not very coherent explanation that basically hinted on (ooc:He's spamtraining on npcs like some serial killer).

Supposedly, not entirely too good a motivation. But ... meh, considering 80% of such incidents, people DO spam kill everyone for skills.

[jstorrie]

PC needs food, pc has no job so pc looks for something valuable. PC sees X (sometimes X is a PC and sometimes an npc) X bears -zero- gang affiliate, X is not wondering any major gang claimed alley, X is wearing stuff that can make a slummer almost two small (which is a large sum to my rinther) So my PC decides, well that gear obviously belongs to me, so and so shouldn't be wearing it wth no one at his back. PC attacks X.

Other People swarm the poor PC's mind about how he is some evil mugger, other people promise his death, at every turn he is outright SHUNNED because he chooses the life of a mugger over a pickpocket or burglar (being you can't be taught skills he is pretty much never going to be able to do either of those.)

Not to nitpick, but mugging someone generally involves threatening them with a beating and then scampering off with whatever they hand over to stay safe. Killing someone with knives is not mugging but murder, and would reasonably elicit disapproval from most onlookers, even in the Labyrinth.

[Folker]

That reasoning doesnt work if a matter between a mugging and murder is whether or not your mercy's on.

[Maybe42or54]

Main thing you need to keep in mind.
If it ain't your pool, it is probably someone else's, and if you want to jump in, prepare to make waves.

[roughneck]

I've ran a couple rinth PC's and generally when my character's notice a rash of muggings he gets pissed and wants to do something about it for several reasons.

1. Whoever is mugging everybody else will probably mug me, and if he doesn't mug me he'll probably mug my friends or family.

2.  If they're mugging other people they have all their cash, and make themselves a pretty lucrative target.

3.  I usually get bored and talk to NPC's that don't attack me and live in the area I play in and although the 'rinth is a brutal place it's still a kind of community and you survive based on the people you know and have working relationships with.  It's also just plain lame when ever NPC in the 'rinth is on the verge of death' or 'stunned and unable to move'.

4.  I look for every excuse in the game to create conflict between players.  To me PC vs PC conflict is the greatest part about arm and the 'rinth is one of the last places in Zalanthas where this is still very overt and in your face with political backdrop that's developed in the game the past year or two.  If I can get a PC to hate my PC I do it, and if I find a way to make a group of PC's hate me or another group I really try for it, because it's more interesting than conflict with NPC's.

[Incognito]

The rinth is a slum - its possibly THE worst place for a humanoid to exist on Zalanthas. The ONLY traits one should live by, in this area are:
1) Do whatever it takes to survive.
2) Might is right.
3) Take whatever you can get, without getting your ass whipped.

Besides that, if anyone's RPing their PC as a chivalrous person, you can tell em to just fuck the hell off and if you have the balls, slit off their head while youre at it.

If anyone's RPing their PC in a way which makes you think its non-realistic - on the other hand, they might have reason to do so, I suggest you let them continue the way they want to - and you go ahead and play the way you want to.

Its not really a complicated issue. Just dont think too deeply about it - go about your own business - as you wish.

[Nile]

The 'rinth needs more muggings imo. Last time I was there it seemed so....Pussy.

Same with all of zalanthas.

[Folker]

A cheerfull, round cheeked Templar says, wiping saliva off his robe, "Aww, you've spat on me. Tsk tsk. Not good. But oh well, you take care next time."
A filthy, rag-tag elf says, scowling "What kind of a Templar are you! Templars dont act like that! Templars are mean ans EASY to insult. I've just spat on you, for chrissakes!"
A cheerful, round cheeked Templar says, folding his lips into a pout, "Oh. Well, mmm. You're right. Let's see."
A cheerful, round cheeked Templar gestures half heartedly to A colossal, overly muscled half-giant.
A colossal, overly muscled half-giant kills a filthy, rag-tag elf in a single round of combat.

This bit of quote is fictional and does not relate to any current or old characters. Yes, even the one who caught me on a lie and ended up getting me to buy him a drink as punishment. I loved it. The sense of 'amazed relief' I, as character felt, is ... unforgettable.