Creating more crime

[psionic fungus]

That playing 'smart' isnt always what it's all about. Yes, it is possible to play patient and be succesfull as a pickpocket. The problem for it, is that this forces your character to be a 'non criminal' for a good long period of time. Which simply turns your character into an 'aide with steal'.

I disagree.  Playing smart -is- what is is about.  It doesn't mean playing an aide, or being a non-criminal.  It means stealing from people who are not surrounded by soldiers, making sure you have escape plans before attempting a job, etc.  If you think like a thief rather than a game-player you will find your experience much more rewarding.  The criminal code is not very difficult to work with.

That said, there are certain aspects of the code I -would- like to see changed... And it seems that in 2.Arm they will be.

[Qzzrbl]

I disagree.  Playing smart -is- what is is about.  It doesn't mean playing an aide, or being a non-criminal.  It means stealing from people who are not surrounded by soldiers, making sure you have escape plans before attempting a job, etc.

The thing is, there are soldiers -EVERYWHERE- in some certain city I'm thinking of.  I've even seen 4-5 soldiers in several rooms. There is nowhere to plan a good escape rout because the instant you get caught pickpocketing, -every- soldier knows where and who you are, and they proceed to try to arrest you. Whats worse is they'll cut you down if you try to escape. Resistance is futile. You will  be arrested. Unless I'm missing something.

[psionic fungus]

I've played pickpockets in nearly every settlement successfully (the smaller ones are much more difficult, to be honest).  If there are literally soldiers -everywhere-, I would take it up with the Staff in an email.

The only other thing I would ask for currently is that wanted flag times be decreased.  Waiting an entire IC day is just too boring, not to mention unrealistic. It's far too long to be functionally playable.  Who wants to commit a crime when you know you might have to stay hidden, picking a boil on your ass, for the next 90 minutes.  It can require that you have at least an hour and a half to stay on line before attempting anything.  Not so fun.  I think that guard 'shifts' of a third of a day (that's 30 minutes) would be reasonable.  At the very least, I think wanted flags should be cut in half.  45 minutes is plenty of time to be wanted and vulnerable after trying to lift a bite to eat for your character. Unfortunately it would take additional coding, but I would like to see shorter wanted flags for criminals who have not been arrested.  Once arrested, I think a day in jail (90 minutes) is perfectly reasonable, as this gives time for possible PC interaction and seems appropriate IC.  The jail time should be separate from the wanted time, however.  Also, when you commit another crime -while- wanted, your timer should be reset to the new crime, meaning there is a renewed alarm/search...


Again, scripted patrols and reputations should do a lot to fix this in 2.Arm. 

[Folker]

That playing 'smart' isnt always what it's all about. Yes, it is possible to play patient and be succesfull as a pickpocket. The problem for it, is that this forces your character to be a 'non criminal' for a good long period of time. Which simply turns your character into an 'aide with steal'.

I disagree.  Playing smart -is- what is is about.  It doesn't mean playing an aide, or being a non-criminal.  It means stealing from people who are not surrounded by soldiers, making sure you have escape plans before attempting a job, etc.  If you think like a thief rather than a game-player you will find your experience much more rewarding.  The criminal code is not very difficult to work with.

That said, there are certain aspects of the code I -would- like to see changed... And it seems that in 2.Arm they will be.

That's only when dealing with NPCs. Admittedly, you 'dont' need stealth skills when stealing from NPCs. Think up an escape route before job, screw up, run, and hide out untill the wanted flag's over. It's not 'fun', but doable and hardly at all difficult. But if you begin to play with PCs, thats different, that's where stealth skills are a 'must'. Mainly because when you succeed your theft, you're figured out by a simple method of elimination. Unless ... you're playing smart (non criminal/aide), which is also fun the first ten times you do it.

[psionic fungus]

That's only when dealing with NPCs. Admittedly, you 'dont' need stealth skills when stealing from NPCs. Think up an escape route before job, screw up, run, and hide out untill the wanted flag's over. It's not 'fun', but doable and hardly at all difficult. But if you begin to play with PCs, thats different, that's where stealth skills are a 'must'.

I don't see what PC or NPC really has to do with the situation.  If you are going to attempt something, and you know there is a chance of being 'caught', then you need to make sure there are no soldiers present and have an escape route.  How does having a player at the other end change that?  As I said before, think like a thief, not a game-player, and success will come.

Mainly because when you succeed your theft, you're figured out by a simple method of elimination. Unless ... you're playing smart (non criminal/aide),

I disagree.  I have successfully stolen from PCs many, many times.  No method of elimination will function if your presence is not known.  Timing is important.  There are a thousand ways to be successful, and many of them do not require your character to be a "non criminal" or an aide.  They do require playing smart.  I understand that being caught by just a single PC -can- 'ruin' a pickpocket's career, but the code can hardly be blamed for that.

[Qzzrbl]

I hate it when a bar full of PCs close their packs and belts after seeing a person walk in wearing footpads.... 

[a strange shadow]

I hate it when someone walks into a bar wearing footpads, and acts surprised when people assume they're a thief.

[Dalmeth]

I hate it when someone walks into a bar wearing footpads, and acts surprised when people assume they're a thief.

I hate that they're called footpads.  That just screams malicious intent.  Afterall, they are simply shoes without solid soles.

[a strange shadow]

... that are popular among footpads, for the ease of stealth when wearing them.

[Synthesis]

I think it's funny that people assume that it's the dude that they can see (who happens to be wearing footpads) that they have to worry about.

[Fathi]

I've played pickpockets in nearly every settlement successfully (the smaller ones are much more difficult, to be honest).  If there are literally soldiers -everywhere-, I would take it up with the Staff in an email.

The only other thing I would ask for currently is that wanted flag times be decreased.  Waiting an entire IC day is just too boring, not to mention unrealistic. It's far too long to be functionally playable.  Who wants to commit a crime when you know you might have to stay hidden, picking a boil on your ass, for the next 90 minutes.  It can require that you have at least an hour and a half to stay on line before attempting anything.  Not so fun.  I think that guard 'shifts' of a third of a day (that's 30 minutes) would be reasonable.  At the very least, I think wanted flags should be cut in half.  45 minutes is plenty of time to be wanted and vulnerable after trying to lift a bite to eat for your character. Unfortunately it would take additional coding, but I would like to see shorter wanted flags for criminals who have not been arrested.  Once arrested, I think a day in jail (90 minutes) is perfectly reasonable, as this gives time for possible PC interaction and seems appropriate IC.  The jail time should be separate from the wanted time, however.  Also, when you commit another crime -while- wanted, your timer should be reset to the new crime, meaning there is a renewed alarm/search...


Again, scripted patrols and reputations should do a lot to fix this in 2.Arm. 

In line with this, I'd also love to see offenses broken into coded tiers so that different crimes would have different wanted-flag timers in the first place.

For all I know this is already implemented in the current game, but if it's not, I'd really like it to be. It doesn't seem terribly realistic to me that a city's law enforcement would equally divide their time between a pickpocket/picklock and a wanton murderer.

[Folker]

I disagree.  I have successfully stolen from PCs many, many times.  No method of elimination will function if your presence is not known.  Timing is important.  There are a thousand ways to be successful, and many of them do not require your character to be a "non criminal" or an aide.  They do require playing smart.  I understand that being caught by just a single PC -can- 'ruin' a pickpocket's career, but the code can hardly be blamed for that.

Are you saying you've continiously pulled off a theft from a PC, without stealth skills and while acting as a character of dubious livelyhood (breed/elf/rinthie), you managed to have your presence not known ?

[Synthesis]

Folker, your scenario is flawed because -every- primary guild thief class starts with stealth skill(s) (and for any of you trying to use the steal command without being a primary guild thief, good luck with that...).

I've played thieves that -never- critically failed a steal attempt in a lawful zone, and were never seen by anyone (visible) who they didn't reveal themselves to.  Did it take a lot of careful planning and patience? Yes.  Was it difficult?  Compared to training -any- other class up, absolutely not.  In terms of risk and time investment, the non-combat rogue classes are much, much easier to train than assassins, rangers, and warriors.

[Kalden]

Folker, your scenario is flawed because -every- primary guild thief class starts with stealth skill(s)

Yeah, skill(s). Pickpockets are crippled. For some reason they get an added disadvantage on top of being useless in combat.

[Synthesis]

If that's the only thing you have to cry about...you just need to get over it, man.  It's very far from crippling. 

[Kalden]

It's pretty hard to slip by guards if you can't hide. Pickpockets are the ones who need it the most.

[Folker]

Steal is fine, considering that you can practically practice it on 'nil', it is hardly that much of a 'feat' to never fail it. The real problem is the stealth in my opinion. Without stealth, even with potent steal, stealing from PCs, while being of clearly dubious nature is simply a foolish thing to do. Yes, ofcourse, this isnt an eternal problem, after all the helpfile says "Expert pickpockets usually learn how to become unseen and how to listen to conversations going on nearby", but that's experts. And untill then, you either end up limiting yourself to NPCs (Very often same ones, which is somewhat jarring), or what's worse ... limiting your pickpocketing to practicing sessions untill you're properly stealthy (Which is even more jarring).

With that, while all other shady characters are given varies tools to be many things thugs, spies, aides. The pickpockets' only meaningful and influencial job would be ... 'aidesque' as I already mentioned. But if they stay criminal, they're just fated to robbing the same NPCs most of the time and if god forbid they decide to play their criminal nature with a PC, without becoming the 'expert pickpockets mentioned in the helpfile', their career is pretty much over in that town.