Creating more crime

[touringCompl3t3]

Almost a month ago, I had the idea that I wish I were the victim of more in-game, PC-v-PC crime.  I made a few polls to find out how other players felt.  After the conclusion of the polls, it seemed likely that those who participated in the polls felt that it would be more fun if there were more PC-v-PC crime. 

A couple of weeks ago I made a follow-up post to find out why players felt like there wasn't enough crime.  The ensuing discussion can be read here:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29294.msg317593.html#msg317593

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who responded to the question.  Some of the posts were certainly thought provoking.  I've taken a few hours to try to best understand what was said and what implications it might have on the game.  For the most part, players seemed eager to point out things that other players or even staff members were acively doing to acerbate the situation.

What surprised me, though, was that I didn't see very many conspicuous posts attributing the source of the problem to things that we as a playerbase weren't doing.  After my analysis, I really felt that the source of the problem boils down to things that we do not do.  After all, if so many of us feel this way about the issue it seems logical to assume that if each of us did a little more, then the sum of our actions would create a noticeable and welcome effect.

Disclaimer:  I recognize that there surely must have been players who disagreed either with the polls, they way they were formulated, or the ensuing discussions.  I am thankful that people have kept this discussion civil up to this point and encourage anyone who disagrees to politely state your point of view below.  I am writing this post really to make a series of recommendations for people who agree with my analysis of the problem and who would enjoy actively being part of a solution.

Ways you can help

Play a thief
Probably the most obvious solution to the problem of creating more crime is to create more thieves.  Many of you are already playing characters that you are attached to.  But what if your character dies, especially in one of the upcoming HRPTs?  Why not make a thief? 
Of course, if you do you'll want to bear in mind to steal things, make sure you don't get caught and of course stay alive and don't die.  Neither Jack Sparrow nor Al Capone would be as much fun if they had spent all of their lives in jail.

Play a militia guard
Don't feel like playing a thief?  Why not play one of the militia guards?  To be serious, I'm not suggesting that any of you play a corrupt militia guard.  There seemed to be a lot of those at one point in time, and I question their long-term impact on the crime levels.  But rather, why not play a burnt-out guard who means well but lacks the energy to tackle all of the crime in the city?  Or why not play an overly honest guard who won't break the rules to catch the criminals, and so the criminals keep getting away?  Really any kind of guard would be helping the problem as long as you bear in mind one simple idea --

--catching all of the criminals won't make you look l33t, cool, smart or efficient. --

I say this because catching criminals isn't hard work given the constraints of the game.  There are only so many victims, so many places to hide.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel.  If a hunter kills all of the scrabs, the staff get mad because they have to type a few game commands and load more scrabs.  Yet how much harder is it for players to create new criminal PCs?  I sincerely wish that we taught some of the restraint to guards that we teach to hunters.

Players of regular characters
Even if you're just playing a regular character, there is still plenty that you can do.  Make opportunities for people to steal, and when they steal from you.
-don't go insisting that they are a twink just because they stole from you.  You're not so smart that they're invulnerable, and they probably don't want you criticizing their methods as unrealistic, unless you are very polite about doing so.  They're relying on the same code-base that you are.
-don't assume that just because you can get a glance at a thief, that you will instantly recognize him a month later.
-don't lean on authority figures to remove the criminal from the game. 

Things you can do if you ever become a staff member
I won't tell the Arm staff how to run their own game, but I'm writing to players who may someday become staff.  When you become staff
-please don't animate to NPCs to "crack down" on thieves who you think are twinking.  If it seems like they're twinking, it's because they are few enough "legitimate" avenues for theft.  Why not, instead, animate a poorly-defended Kadian gem caravan for them to rob, or animate a dumb, rich politician for them to blackmail, or a drunk bynner on pay-day for them to swindle.  Create opportunities for thieves to play out and have lots of fun role-play.
-Ever notice how there are lots of missions for warriors and lots of RPT for social characters, but few enough missions are tailored for thieves.  Why not make a few missions for thief characters.  True, there are some but there could be much more!
-One last problem, as pointed out by other players, is that most of the crim roles are by nature solitary and antisocial.  Burglars and pick-pockets, in the current code base, actually function better alone than with help.  Why not create missions or modify the code so that a gang of criminals can go on a big heist, or can work together to get a big score?

[Mr_Fire]

I agree, heh

[Qzzrbl]

So beautifully written.... 

I'm gonna create a thief now....

[Folker]

I gotta say. My survival chances on pickpocket guilds (Who work as pickpockets, not aides with steal) lower significantly the moment I get cozy with the resident gang. Mainly because as a pickpocket, the usefulness of my character 'as pickpocket' is very limited as they are worse in 'everything' except steal then say .... burglars, and are much easier 'sacrificed' the moment shit gets nasty. While burglars are perfect spies from get go. I've managed to once to pull a 5 grand job as a burglar on like ... 2nd day?  Using nothing, but sneak and hide.

My personal opinion, in order to encourage crime ... stop being FBI agents. I mean everyone ... eveeeryone, from distant bynners, to interested militia, to other rinthies begin with information gathering. Names, guilds, sdesc, mdesc, accent, who he knows, etc. It's like everyone's carrying around a bookcase filled with archives on each (vnpc included) person they happen to meet.

[Sokotra]

Wow... good points.  It does seem like there are a lot more "authority" figures that get animated or activated when alerted by PC's or staff or whatever... while on the other hand it is pretty rare (or not at all) that a "good target" gets animated for a thief or mugger.  Even if it is just a "target/crime of opportunity".  The insta-death, all-seeing, all-knowing authorities are usually enough to put a damper on much of the opportunities that may be out there for criminals...

[Qzzrbl]

Wow... good points.  It does seem like there are a lot more "authority" figures that get animated or activated when alerted by PC's or staff or whatever... while on the other hand it is pretty rare (or not at all) that a "good target" gets animated for a thief or mugger.  Even if it is just a "target/crime of opportunity".  The insta-death, all-seeing, all-knowing authorities are usually enough to put a damper on much of the opportunities that may be out there for criminals...

Sometimes I get to thinking that every single soldier and guard in Allanak is mindbender.

[Tisiphone]

Wow... good points.  It does seem like there are a lot more "authority" figures that get animated or activated when alerted by PC's or staff or whatever... while on the other hand it is pretty rare (or not at all) that a "good target" gets animated for a thief or mugger.  Even if it is just a "target/crime of opportunity".  The insta-death, all-seeing, all-knowing authorities are usually enough to put a damper on much of the opportunities that may be out there for criminals...

Sometimes I get to thinking that every single soldier and guard in Allanak is mindbender.

Find Out IC. 

[Conspiracy Theory]

In other words, for the love of Sanvean, please, please, please make the crim-code MUCH, MUCH softer, to the point where it's a fraction of its current self. I would LOVE to play a career thief, but since very early on in my Arm career I've witnessed pickpockets and criminals of many lengths of experience insta-killed/insta-subdued by the impregnable, omnipresent, all-seeing soldiers of city-state X.

Make wearing a hood/mask cause it to be hard to identify a pickpocket, by all of PCs, NPCs, and VNPCs. Make it easier for a PC to change/disguise their own appearance through realistic means.

Force PC law enforcement to solve PC crime. It gives both parties something to roleplay about, encourages both conflict and interaction, and makes it easier for crime to be had in the first place, because PC law enforcement won't always be around.

[Folker]

Ergh. I'll give it some later thought how to phrase my opinion better.

[Nyr]

What Morgenes said.

[Reiloth]

As far as the OP's ideas on 'working together to do large heists or assassinations', I think this -very- much is going to be true in 2.0.

Imagine a world where there are no Burglars, but 'Shady Specialization' with 'lockpicking and subterfuge' as secondary class choices. And then another one with 'Ruggish-Thuggish' Specialization with 'Sappery and Subduery' as secondaries. And 'Shady Spec.' with 'poisons and critical strike'. Or 'Shady Spec.' with 'Information Gathering and Writing' (If writing is that easily done, so you might have a forger in your group). Or 'Shady Spec' with 'Fencing (Items) and Haggle' (So that perhaps there are NPC's that will not deal with anyone who isn't a 'fence' and knows perhaps the 'fence language', just a crude, 'rinthi-esque series of fart jokes and boning women slang. And these NPC's will buy your stolen loot, no questions asked.)

There's probably a lot of possibilities, and I am excited for the crim-code revamp as well as 'different crim code', which was hinted at on the blog, where it would differ in both reaction time and punishment depending on the city / zone.

[Synthesis]

If you don't play stupidly, pickpockets and burglars aren't that much more likely to die in the course of ordinary business than any other class.

The keyword here is "stupid."  Of course, it takes a little experience to figure out what is or isn't stupid (sort of like any other class).  So:  if you've had a bad experience, try correcting your previous mistake(s) and try again.

That being said, the crime code does necessitate a little metagaming, and definitely puts an extreme damper on the RP quality of the -act- of engaging in something criminal.  Fortunately, like most other classes, actual engagement occurs relatively infrequently (unless you're twinking out), so it doesn't kill the game.

[Folker]

The problem is, Synthesis. That playing 'smart' isnt always what it's all about. Yes, it is possible to play patient and be succesfull as a pickpocket. The problem for it, is that this forces your character to be a 'non criminal' for a good long period of time. Which simply turns your character into an 'aide with steal'. Nothing is wrong with playing that role now, but ... on occasion, it's just more interesting to play ... an actual pickpocket. A vagrant. And you cant say 'just play a beggar', because beggars end up 'aidesque' easilly enough aswell (Provided they play smart). Sometimes ... it would've feel nice to play a pickpocket as ... a pickpocket.

[Synthesis]

If you think the only way to be a pickpocket or burglar is to be an aide...you are seriously limiting your range of options, and probably limiting your options to the least successful strategies.  Perhaps by trying another approach, you will find the sort of success I've had in the past.

[Folker]

Never said anything about burglars. I've once pulled a 5 large job on my 2nd day as a burglar. Pickpockets though is ... another matter. But discussing it would be a bit too IC.

Trying to keep it vague enough, I can say that to be an effective pickpocket, you need to be stealthy. And to quote from a helpfile "Expert pickpockets usually learn how to become unseen and how to listen to conversations going on nearby." Key on 'expert'. Therefore, for a good while, you have to pull non pickpockety things, simply to survive. Which leaves you basically equipped to influence the world with nothing but own intelligence, tongue, and connections. How do you call those who affect the world with intelligence, tongue, and connections and noy coded skills? Aides! Not only them ofcourse, but they're the ones most common and widespread ones.

Note, that there is indeed nothing wrong with any of that. The problem is that you can play only so many of the 'smart' pickpockets, dedicating vast amount of time to things that are not criminal at all. While on occasion (Especially after reading a thread called creating more crime), you want to play a pickpocket that picks pockets for an actual living.

[Synthesis]

You're relying on a few implicit assumptions that aren't necessarily true.  While I'd love to say more, all I can say is:  it's not difficult if you play smart.

Oh, and find out IC, I guess.

 

[Sokotra]

I know what you are saying, Synthesis... and you may be right to some degree.   For the most part, however, I would still have to largely agree with Folker.  Despite all this... I think the main point is that a single botched attempt at picking 5 coins from a pocket and suddenly, in a split second, every guard in the city auto-majickally knows that you are a criminal and must be apprehended AT ALL COSTS is a little much.  But again, I know what you are getting at... I've just always wanted to see things a little more gritty and chaotic with the crim-code stuff.  It just seemed that it was rare for there to be any little sort of muggings and crime on the streets without it turning into a sudden city-wide war on terrorism.  Heh.  Cloaks that cover clothing/armor and hoods and masks and bandanas should be an easy way to disguise yourself and at least temporarily avoid a huge red WANTED flag or something... I don't know.  I guess I'm just repeating what we already know.  I think the point has already been made and everyone knows that things need to be a little less cut-and-dry and a little more "realistically complicated" or something... 

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I agreed that the crime-code is a bit much.

However, it is not an insurmountable obstacle.

[Kalden]

The crime code used to be ten times worse than it is now, thanks to the relatively new sneak/hide code. It's not that hard to play a good criminal. The problem is that so very few people even try it. Additional factors are that Tuluk isn't geared for crime at all, and the Labyrinth is a stock deadzone which probably hasn't seen a real update in 5 RL years.

There's no good reason for soldiers to know the sdesc of a hooded figure. They should know the size of the figure and color of the cloak. That's all. That's how it works in Shadows of Isildur. Criminals haven't taken over and ruled the world there.

There's no good reason to cripple pickpockets as they're crippled now, and of course it is harder to survive with a crippled class. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't played pickpockets and compared it to playing other shady classes.

What Morgenes said.

Brevity is cool, but if you want to add to the discussion maybe you should quote Morgenes in this thread? I checked the thread referenced by OP and it didn't have any statements by Morgenes.

[a strange shadow]

Kalden, things are not as bad as you're making them out to be.

The time and opportunities are pretty ripe for criminals, if you hit the right players/locations.

[Fathi]

the Labyrinth is a stock deadzone which probably hasn't seen a real update in 5 RL years.

I hate beating people over the head with the "find out IC" stick, but this is so incredibly untrue it almost makes me angry to read.

[Kalden]

Kalden, things are not as bad as you're making them out to be.

Did you even read my post? What did I say? Read:

The crime code used to be ten times worse than it is now, thanks to the relatively new sneak/hide code. It's not that hard to play a good criminal. The problem is that so very few people even try it. Additional factors are that Tuluk isn't geared for crime at all, and the Labyrinth is a stock deadzone which probably hasn't seen a real update in 5 RL years.

Could you please reply to what I posted above, a strange shadow?

I hate beating people over the head with the "find out IC" stick, but this is so incredibly untrue it almost makes me angry to read.

I started playing this game roughly 5 years ago (anniversary is coming up!), and I started in the Labyrinth. I have not seen much of a positive change in 5 years. Maybe there are things that I don't see. But I've played in the Labyrinth with dozens of characters and I haven't seen a change. Plus, I can count the number of non-stock rooms on two hands, and that's including super-sekrit or restricted rooms that nobody even goes to. There's been one relatively minor change in the past year, which I suppose you're referring to. It's pretty nice, but from a practical perspective it adds little. From an IC perspective it's just annoying because it completely confronts then supposed culture of the Labyrinth.

I've pretty much branched all the shady classes completely at one time or another. Pickpockets are crippled. Pretty hard to argue with that.

Also, over all the time I've spent playing in the Labyrinth, I've been mugged zero times. The only time I was ever mugged it was by a half-giant in a shadowy alley southside. That was the only attempt (it was successful). I have never even been extorted or shaken down. Most people playing Arm don't understand how to do crime. On the other hand, I've been backstabbed by elves with apparently maxxed backstab many times, even double-backstabbed...

I have never been pickpocketed in the Labyrinth. Outside of the Labyrinth I've been pickpocketed maybe twice. Mostly people just murder. Murder doesn't make a lot of money -- if you murder people rather than mug them, you're going to run out of people fairly fast.

Major income crimes are extortion, mugging, pickpocketing, burglary, kidnapping/ransoming, and black-market dealing. These should be made fairly workable. Some of them are workable right now, but they could be made much moreso.

[Folker]

Errmh, all I can say is that things come in waves, Kalden. I alone done my share of muggings in the rinth, and when I play pickpockets, my favourite past time is nicking things off people who go out to kill half of the rinth. By the time they're done, the only thing they've got left of value is whatever's wielded.

And I've recieved plenty of shake downs aswell. Twice, on two different characters, I had 2k and 5k debts placed onto them on the character's first 2-3 hours of playing. Usually, once you get a little known and get tight with the resident gang, things get 'safer'. But if you're unknown and got no friends, oooh yeah.

It's possible to play 'rinth as safe, but that probably ment there are no meanies currently active in the rinth.

As for the statement that rinth recieved little coded change. Well .. shrug, who cares? It doesnt need any. It's got plenty of PC activity ... usually. Hell, sometimes it gets so much PC activity, the rest of the city gets coded changes as consequence to those PCs misdeeds.

[Nyr]

What Morgenes said.

Brevity is cool, but if you want to add to the discussion maybe you should quote Morgenes in this thread? I checked the thread referenced by OP and it didn't have any statements by Morgenes.

Morgenes edited a post at the same time that I did, and we both essentially said the same thing (which was not to discuss specific branching).  I wasn't adding to the discussion. 

[Tarx]

I've never played a pickpocket, and only one burglar.  (The burglar did nothing in the way of burgling, and ended up being a Borsail aide.)

Despite this, I've managed to "steal," gyp people and fleece them out of their money, extort, bribe, etc. with every character I've made.
It's all in how you look at the word "crime."  It's very subjective.