Merchants feeling a pinch?

[X-D]

How to make Merchants work right? Make the profit they garner from barter more and easier, and make the products that can be sold nearly entirely PC exclusivly crafted.

That means that unless the weapon dealer on the block gets a merchant coming in to unload a couple of longswords, there are none in the game that are no used by either another PC, a NPC, or stored somewhere in a lockbox.

Make Merchants the blood of the world and the game will do right.

I said that YEARS ago.

Personally, I think things are backwards now, I suggested that all shops only have VERY basic items, and when I say basic, I mean either items to make other items out of or very low quality and very small selection.

EVERYTHING of better quality should be PC crafted.
Then set up NPC shops that run like pawnshops. they buy pretty much anything, but at a VERY VERY low price and sell it for 2-3 times what its worth.

A merchant class should be able to haggle the prices up to a reasonable range to sell.

Anybody else, if they want the items they either have to pay the silly pawnshop prices or find a PC merchant/crafter.

Oh, and house crafters would also have access to better materials and recipes then indy crafters, this would keep the merchant houses on top.

[Xio]

One thing I've never liked is recipes. In my eyes, if you char is ICly capable of taking some wood, turn them into a chest with a lid that slides open, and knows he can. Then you shouldn't have to OOC play cat and mouse with the code to find out what pieces you need, how many of each, and what wood is gonna give you said pieces.

[Mood]

Why play a guild_merchant when you can play a guild_warrior and make 10x the coins with a glasshacker?

[Bushranger]

Why play a guild_merchant when you can play a guild_warrior and make 10x the coins with a glasshacker?

Because it isn't all about the coins.

[Xio]

The point of being a merchant should be that the warrior with his glasshacker is gonna be spending 90% on the things you make, so you get all that sid with less effort and relative safety. So rather than going out into the wastes and having to worry about all those dangerous things, you can pay yourself a hunter to go and grab you some materials, then make some armor and a few weapons in the comfort of your apartment and sell it to that Warrior that just came in with a hunk of sid/glass from

[Salt Merchant]

The point of being a merchant should be that the warrior with his glasshacker is gonna be spending 90% on the things you make, so you get all that sid with less effort and relative safety. So rather than going out into the wastes and having to worry about all those dangerous things, you can pay yourself a hunter to go and grab you some materials, then make some armor and a few weapons in the comfort of your apartment and sell it to that Warrior that just came in with a hunk of sid/glass from

I'd argue that:

1. The warrior shouldn't be making so much 'sid as he does from glasshacking now.
2. The merchant that just sits in an apartment and makes things for sale shouldn't get rich. Crafting is too lucrative and at the same time too frustrating. It should be possible to earn a consistent living once a trade is mastered (without all the "drops in the dust" failures and such), but not to get rich that way. Characters can get rich because the current crafting system doesn't reflect the actual effort need to make things, for sake of playability. Some people take advantage of this and spew out sixteen silk dresses in a day. The preventative measures against this have been to limit the amount of coin in the shops and to limit the number of a particular item that will be bought. This works better for some crafting skills than others, though.
3. If she can organize a group of crafters and take a cut from their work, then she should get rich. Exploiting the labor of others is the essence of being a merchant. This however is being suppressed by the mentioned measures. It's pointless to try to employ three jewelers when one will be able to saturate the shops single-handledly, for example.
4. Traveling back and forth, buying cheaply in one place and selling at a high price in another, is the essence of being a merchant. But it involves some danger! This however is being suppressed by the mentioned measures.

What solution do I suggest, then? Raise the level of coin in the shops and greatly extend the time it takes to make items. But extend the time in such a way that crafter isn't trapped. Maybe there could be such a thing as "crafter fatigue points".

[My 2 sids]

Maybe it shouldn't be easy, but it should be easier for merchants than for rangers, assassins and whatever.

Why?

Because merchants tend to be the richer part of society -- even the docs and starting coins suggest this.

Perhaps not as rich as say a templar or Great Merchant House... but richer than any other average joe.

Part of the issue isn't just the shops, it's roleplay too.

First, hobby-crafting PCs go out and sell to both shops and PCs.  So indy merchants may not be as good as the great merchant houses, but any full-time merchant/ crafter should be reguarded as being better than some byn sell-sword (they can't even keep their crap uniforms clean... how can they be expected to know quality items?)

Second, Clans shouldn't be competeing with indy PCs.  I'm just not sure as to how realistic it is for clans (huge, rich, grand houses) to spot some run-of-the-mill merchant and instantly A) try to hire them   B) try to shut them down  or C) hire away all the would-be people joining the merchant.

Third, I understand why it would be realistic for almost every house to have their own uniforms and crafters and what-have-you.  However, from a playability standpoint it'd be nice if there wasn't so much over-lap.  If EVERY PC has EVERYTHING provided for them by a clan than no PC actually needs to buy anything from merchants.

[enigma]

Second, Clans shouldn't be competeing with indy PCs.  I'm just not sure as to how realistic it is for clans (huge, rich, grand houses) to spot some run-of-the-mill merchant and instantly A) try to hire them   B) try to shut them down  or C) hire away all the would-be people joining the merchant.

The merchant Houses didn't get where they are today by allowing competition to flourish.

[Mr.B]

Yeah, enigma is right. The merchant houses didn't get to where they are by not MONOPOLIZING THE HELL out of whatever it is they craft, and that pretty much means whatever needed doing to put down. I remember once long ago one of the Great Merchant Houses found something naughty, and went to one of the other Great Merchant Houses claiming that they had been producing something based too closely on something they produced. There was a very real possibility that the two Houses were going to get very ugly over something that seemed to my character at the time pretty small. When I once played a businessman, I had my competition brutally removed, after that business went from decent to spectacular because I was the main provider of sweet, juicy business. This is something the Merchant Houses have been practicing since the friggin dawn of time.

[My 2 sids]

Second, Clans shouldn't be competeing with indy PCs.  I'm just not sure as to how realistic it is for clans (huge, rich, grand houses) to spot some run-of-the-mill merchant and instantly A) try to hire them   B) try to shut them down  or C) hire away all the would-be people joining the merchant.

The merchant Houses didn't get where they are today by allowing competition to flourish.

That's just it... there isn't competition. 

Macy's Department store sells Christmas orniments.  If I open some rinky-dink little 500 ft Christmas store (one which in all likelyhood close in 6 months) even if I sell Christmas orniments too... that's not exactly the sort of competition Macy's is going to be worried about.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Trade laws disallow the sort of thing Macy's would like to do to you, though.

[enigma]

That is competition, no matter how small.  I don't understand your reasoning for saying that it isn't.

[Adiadochokinesis]

That is competition, no matter how small.  I don't understand your reasoning for saying that it isn't.

Probably because it would take more resources to snuff something so small out than to not snuff it out.

[Salt Merchant]

Second, Clans shouldn't be competeing with indy PCs.  I'm just not sure as to how realistic it is for clans (huge, rich, grand houses) to spot some run-of-the-mill merchant and instantly A) try to hire them   B) try to shut them down  or C) hire away all the would-be people joining the merchant.

The merchant Houses didn't get where they are today by allowing competition to flourish.

They aren't the only merchants around, either.

In fact, if you look at the bazaars, you'll find little independent stands and shops selling weapons, clothes and everything else the Merchant Houses are known for.

Clearly, the big Merchant Houses don't feel threatened by these small-time operations. One independent merchant with a few guards isn't going to have much effect on their bottom lines. Especially when they've experienced how transitory most of these independent operations are.

Keep in mind that the big Merchant Houses have a monopoly, even so. With Salarr supplying the militias, Kurac having spice and Kadius keeping a lock on the silker crowd.

Now if the independent merchant teams up with ten others and they start building an operation into a hundred or more employees... maybe then they'd start being a concern.

[Fathi]

Third, I understand why it would be realistic for almost every house to have their own uniforms and crafters and what-have-you.  However, from a playability standpoint it'd be nice if there wasn't so much over-lap.  If EVERY PC has EVERYTHING provided for them by a clan than no PC actually needs to buy anything from merchants.

But what about the merchant PCs in those clans? Is buying something from a PC Kadian somehow 'worse' than buying from a PC indie tailor? I don't really understand your reasoning here. When people get goods from the Great Merchant Houses, unless you only buy from the NPC shops, there's PC to PC interaction going on. Usually quite a bit of it. So how does it hurt playability?

If I'm playing a hunter and I want a certain model of spear, for example, I'm going to have to wait around a LOT longer to get it if I only want to deal with independent merchants/weaponmakers than if I just find the nearest Salarri PC.

[Lizzie]

Heh not really Fathi. Just hire a sellsword to kill whoever you saw using the spear you want to buy, and pay the sellsword half the price Salarr would charge, in exchange for the sword and the dead guy's head. Plus the sellsword gets to keep anything else on the guy he kills.

Takes a WHOLE lot less time, and be much cheaper, than waiting the 2 game-years Salarr will claim they need to produce the uber-special-ebonwood-obsidian-hued-baobab-engraved spear of doom you ordered that you saw on Mr. Soon-to-be-Dead-Guy's belt.

[Fathi]

Heh not really Fathi. Just hire a sellsword to kill whoever you saw using the spear you want to buy, and pay the sellsword half the price Salarr would charge, in exchange for the sword and the dead guy's head. Plus the sellsword gets to keep anything else on the guy he kills.

Takes a WHOLE lot less time, and be much cheaper, than waiting the 2 game-years Salarr will claim they need to produce the uber-special-ebonwood-obsidian-hued-baobab-engraved spear of doom you ordered that you saw on Mr. Soon-to-be-Dead-Guy's belt.

Well, in my original post I implied that the spear was a commonly-craftable item, as I said an indie weaponmaker could make it. I highly doubt many people would kill a guy for half the price of what a commonly-made crafter recipe weapon sells for.

[Xio]

If its a commonly made spear, why do you think it'll take so long for an indie to make?

[Fathi]

If its a commonly made spear, why do you think it'll take so long for an indie to make?

It... wouldn't?

I meant that I very rarely meet indie weaponmakers to do business with in the first place, and that you're more likely--playing a city PC, mind you--to run into PCs of the merchant houses than independent crafters offering to sell crafted goods.

[Xio]

I feel the reason there aren't a lot of indie merchants is because they can't survive to begin with. My chars have come across tons of starting merchants only to see them fade into the background because they can't npc shops to buy their items and the Houses have an edge over them with merchants who have experience. For a merchant to get better such that they can sell things worthy of grabbing the attention of PCs (with the way Arm is now) they need a lot of practice. If they can't sell anything to shops and whatnot, it is at the least extremely hard to get such experience since they can't afford raw materials nor pay anyone to gather them.

[Rarsh]

As a newbie, I don't have much to add except this: I personally would love to buy from PC merchants. PCs offer RP, and that's why I'm here. Buying from NPCs is just a chore. I'd buy -everything- from a PC if possible.

But--and maybe this is because I'm a newbie--I don't know where to -find- PC merchants. I started near a message board, and if there'd been a recent note saying, 'Sweetcheeks McGee spreads word that he has all sorts of gear available for sale--for folks looking for the basics and also for more uncommon equipment. Try to find his mind, he'll meet you at the Gaj, day or night. He's a green-toothed, scruffy bearded man ...' I would've held off on buying any start-up gear until finding Sweetcheeks.

I'm not clear on what's considered appropriate for the in-game boards, which strike me as being staggeringly under-utilized, but that sorta thing would really help those of us who can't hardly even find the bazaar! And from what I understand, people tend to die a lot here; just grabbing some percentage of new character cash would be significant, no?

[flurry]

Has anyone been able to run an independent merchant recently and be able to build up a large sum of coin quickly (e.g. tens of thousands of coins)? This is the sort of income that's needed to buy a property, set up shop, hire guards and in general launch various plots through the motivation of coin and in general give the merchant a raison d'etre. I sense that the merchant class has lost this ability to a large extent.

My last attempt to go the independent route got sidetracked with an offer to be an aide.  I suspect that is not uncommon either.

I think building up tens of thousands of coins "quickly" is not a realistic expectation for any class.  Some people do it, I'm sure, but I suspect it nearly always means abandoning all sense of realistic roleplay (e.g. churning out crafted items at a ridiculous rate) and a heavy reliance on info that your character has no business knowing (e.g. precisely which items to buy here and sell there to cheesily game the economy).

Yes, piles of coins can open up some great roleplay opportunities (which I think some people forget), but a big part of the fun of a merchant role (or any role) is going through the journey of getting there.  It's not meant to be easy.  Particularly the role of an independent merchant should be a struggle.

I think part of the reason we don't see more independent merchants is that it's more challenging, in some ways, than other independent characters.  It requires a much heavier social component.  You need contacts, suppliers, customers, and to keep on good terms with the powers than be.  And if you start to get some success, you have the GHMs either tryng to hire you on, intimidate you, or worse.  It's a challenge, but this is Armageddon.

edited to throw in a missing word

[Tomeglow]

I do believe that merchants have a lot of competitions, and game changes have made them even more difficult, but any merchant who's really out there to make coins would make connections with PC. You could find a PC hunter and buy their pelts, or a weaponcrafter and ship their crafts, or even just a ranger who could help guide your way to your destinations. A merchant without connections needs to find a new occupation, because not only is living off of NPCs low-paying, but it makes for a lot of solo RP, too.

[Salt Merchant]

I think building up tens of thousands of coins "quickly" is a realistic expectation for any class.  Some people do it, I'm sure, but I suspect it nearly always means abandoning all sense of realistic roleplay (e.g. churning out crafted items at a ridiculous rate) and a heavy reliance on info that your character has no business knowing (e.g. precisely which items to buy here and sell there to cheesily game the economy).

I think you meant "isn't a realistic expectation for any class".

I agree that churning out crafted items at a high rate is not very realistic.

However, trading is what merchants are about. Why should no merchant have a business knowing what items to buy to sell elsewhere for a profit? Of course they should, that's what they're about. The merchant buys some samples in one place and then tries to sell them elsewhere. It doesn't take many attempts to spot certain properties that make an item profitable, especially with comprehensive use of their value skill. What does prevent the merchant from capitalizing on this is that lack of coin issue and the thinness of the PC market.

If a merchant has to grind for months to make each ten thousand coins, then she can't afford to hire guards or motivate plots with coin. She's almost like a no-guild one-subguild PC then.

[Janna]

Well, right -now- IG, for me, independents are normally the best route to go. Unless It is something I absolutely have no choice but to get from one of the Houses, I really don't want to wait a week to a month (IRL) to get it from said House versus an indy or NPC shop the same or next day.

Sadly, over the last year and a half, I have only ran into two active PC merchants for the GMH. I use them, because I should from an IC stand-point, but I do so from an ooc standpoint of they can have the order I don't really need filled until two weeks from now while those I -do- need, go to the Indy PC who doesn't need to sift through piles and piles of crap in their House only to find they don't have it and need to e-mail the clan imms and wait for it to be created/loaded into their stock. I'm sure this a good point to many people asking for self-loadable items and such in ARM.2

As for Merchants feeling a pinch as a whole, GMH Merchants feel a pinch from the point I mention above, probably. Independents, on the other hand, rake in enough coin to make a nenyuki get a hard on if they play it right.