Merchants feeling a pinch?

[Salt Merchant]

Doesn't anyone feel odd role playing a commoner who makes an absurd amount of coin?

Yes, so I don't.  After a few thousand sid I don't see the point.  Unless it's being used to generate plots, it's just a number. I also think the presence of unrealistically wealthy characters can be a real drag on the roleplay of other characters.

At its best, wealth can cause plots to flourish.

That's exactly the point. I believe an independent merchant character should be able to do these things; bribing templars with significant sums, hiring bodyguards, financing expeditions, paying for a compound, contracting assassins and so forth, in a timely way. An independent merchant should be especially good at raising the money, for exactly this purpose, because he can't really do anything else well.

I'm not claiming that the independent merchant should be able to do it overnight or without some effort. I'm not claiming that if you slog away long enough in-game you can't amass 60,000 coins as a merchant (although carrying it with you is out of the question, since it weighs 600 stone). I'm claiming that the independent merchant's ability to generate coin quickly enough to finance the above has been badly damaged by changes to the game.

(I also don't understand where this idea that it's unrealistic for some merchants to get very wealthy comes from. In any system with unrestricted commerce, you'll always find individuals like this. Even in China, "rich peasants" appeared the moment they started instituting reforms).

[psionic fungus]

All I can really say on this issue is that the economy is totally fucked.   There are so many aspects that do not make sense, it's futile to even attempt.  If we don't know how the wealth was accrued, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the "realism" of their wealth.  I have had characters offered thousands of 'sid to single jobs.  I've accrued massive amounts of wealth, for specific purposes, and I've given away thousands of coins to NPC tribe members...

The most important thing, to me, is making sure that coinage is put back into the player-base.  If you have a 5000 coin stipend coming from a virtual source try to make sure you give that money to PCs instead of spending it all in shops.  Many times I am loathe to keep money in the Nenyuk bank just because it makes it unaccessible to  the player-base.  I'd rather have a safe in my room or hide caches of coin and valuables all around.

Anyhow... I'm not sure what an "absurd" amount of coin is... But I guess, by definition, it would bother me.

[Shimrod]

sounds like your having a great time.

Nah, I'm having a rockin' time actually.

[enigma]

That's exactly the point. I believe an independent merchant character should be able to do these things; bribing templars with significant sums, hiring bodyguards, financing expeditions, paying for a compound, contracting assassins and so forth, in a timely way. An independent merchant should be especially good at raising the money, for exactly this purpose, because he can't really do anything else well.

I'm not claiming that the independent merchant should be able to do it overnight or without some effort. I'm not claiming that if you slog away long enough in-game you can't amass 60,000 coins as a merchant (although carrying it with you is out of the question, since it weighs 600 stone). I'm claiming that the independent merchant's ability to generate coin quickly enough to finance the above has been badly damaged by changes to the game.

(I also don't understand where this idea that it's unrealistic for some merchants to get very wealthy comes from. In any system with unrestricted commerce, you'll always find individuals like this. Even in China, "rich peasants" appeared the moment they started instituting reforms).

If your indie merchant gets rich enough to start hiring, bribing, and building, you're going to get noticed by the GMHs.  If your indie merchant ends up better dressed than a noble (or his/her aide), and having a swanky apartment, you're going to get noticed by the nobility.  Chances are, they're not going to like what they see.  I think of it sort of like the mafia and any other organized crime groups (even though in this case it isn't necessarily crime).  You infringe on their business, or make them look bad, they're going to take action.  And I think this is why indies in Zalanthas are so stifled, and IMO they should be because of the way the society works (and the economy should.)

[jstorrie]

You could be one of those merchants who sells things that the GMHs don't, which leaves... uh... wagonmaking (broken), cooking and toolmaking.

Make 60k on skeet pies and toolmaking and you will have basically won Armageddon.

[Gimfalisette]

Extra points for killing the skeets yourself, as a merchant guild?

[enigma]

Wagons and cooking (catering/gourmet food at least) are indeed handled by some of the GMHs.

[brytta.leofa]

Wagons and cooking (catering/gourmet food at least) are indeed handled by some of the GMHs.

Double extra points to whoever starts up "Porqi's BBQ Wagon."

[Salt Merchant]

If your indie merchant gets rich enough to start hiring, bribing, and building, you're going to get noticed by the GMHs.  If your indie merchant ends up better dressed than a noble (or his/her aide), and having a swanky apartment, you're going to get noticed by the nobility.  Chances are, they're not going to like what they see.  I think of it sort of like the mafia and any other organized crime groups (even though in this case it isn't necessarily crime).  You infringe on their business, or make them look bad, they're going to take action.  And I think this is why indies in Zalanthas are so stifled, and IMO they should be because of the way the society works (and the economy should.)

I disagree with your first point. The GMH's will only take notice if you intrude on their turf in a significant way. If you start dealing in spice, you can expect Kurac's notice. If you start selling large quantities of arms to militias, you can expect Salarr's notice.

There have been several instances of indie merchants starting up their own little houses in the past, before the money supply tightened. Even if the GMHs would step in, as you say, then what's wrong with that? A good chance for struggle, assassination, plots and roleplay is born.

So far as the second point goes, nothing says your independent merchant has to flaunt his or her wealth openly. A little discretion, a few bribes and they can live in veiled luxury.

[enigma]

I disagree with your first point. The GMH's will only take notice if you intrude on their turf in a significant way.

Different members of GMHs have different interpretations of significant.

[Salt Merchant]

I disagree with your first point. The GMH's will only take notice if you intrude on their turf in a significant way.

Different members of GMHs have different interpretations of significant.

Well, if GMH agents start throwing fits over an indie merchant selling a few weapons or a linen shirt, I would call that a player perception problem. After all, the cities are full of independent NPCs doing exactly that. Which leads to the question (1) why is the agent singling out the PC, and (2) why the agent is tolerating the existence of the other little stalls, shops and small-time vendors.

[Synthesis]

One problem I've noticed with the economy being so out of whack:

When you want to hire an independent mercenary or whatever to do a job for you...you have to spend an exorbitant amount of coin to make anything remotely risky worthwhile from a cost-benefit analysis.  I mean, if Joe Ranger can hunt duskhorn and pull in 500 'sid a RL week...why would he risk his tail going into Somewhat Dangerous Area X to get Rare Tooth Y so that Bob the Merchant can make a Super Cool Longknife?  Substitute any number of activities, and it becomes a serious problem.

People have become so content with farming 'sid from NPC sources that there really isn't any incentive toward helping plots forward by dealing with PCs who need things to get done.

[psionic fungus]

People have become so content with farming 'sid from NPC sources that there really isn't any incentive toward helping plots forward by dealing with PCs who need things to get done.

I certainly don't look at it like this...

I think there are a lot of reasons that the economy is fucked up (ever spend 200 'sid on ale in the -Rinth- and not get drunk?), and having such a messed up and unbalanced economy leads to a sort of OOC inflation.  Unfortunately, solutions may end up becoming problems...

NPCs -are- the major source of coin in the game.  Whether they load with it, or they are traded for it (like delicious goudra), there are few ways to get coins aside from NPCs (and I'm including the ones that buy things).  Truly, the coin in the game comes from NPCs or the Staff (through Noble and GMH stipends).  There is nothing inherently wrong with making coin off of NPCs.  IMO, in terms of the game economy, it is more important that pay attention to where you PUT your coins than from where you GET them.

Anyhow, all I really have to say is put your coins into the PC economy, it's good karma.

[Synthesis]

I don't have any problem with subsistence NPC 'sid farming (ha, you could make this into a whole sustainable 'sid agriculture running gag).  However, when everyone is running around easily making rent payments -and- putting away enough for all their custom loot simply by foraging/logging/mining/hunting/selling crafts to NPCs...why bother with doing something risky for a PC?

On the plus side, I imagine playing a pickpocket or burglar is quite a lucrative business these days, with all the cash and loot in circulation.

[Ammit]

Doesn't anyone feel odd role playing a commoner who makes an absurd amount of coin?

No. But then I've never gotten the chance 

With the initial expenses of:
* 5 sets of clothing
* 2 sets of armor (for outdoor chars)
* Weapon(s) (for outdoor chars)
* 1-2 mounts
* Furniture

And such regular expenses as:
* Water (preferably a cistern or barrel so I don't need to constantly refill).
* An apartment.
* Renting for a mount or two (for outdoor characters depending on the sort of character and how many goods I bring in a trip and how far).
* Daily meals (and no, I never eat travel cakes unless I'm literally forced to through a bad cooking skill ) with some spices mixed in when you're lucky.
* Some cheap wine for the meal
* A mug of ale each night I'm in a tavern
* A whore once every blue moon (limited to whore PCs, otherwise its all virtual)

I find my ability to earn too much 'sid non-existent. And if I ever do get comfortably well off (never happened yet!) then I'll develop a spice addiction and/or gambling addiction.