The power emote

[Janna]

Based of a partial discussion in this thread http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28215.225.html and various other gripes I've seen on other threads here and there, I'm curious to see how split the PB is on 'Power emotes'.

Example:

A sergeant of the Militia/Sun legions hears a criminal is in a tavern and proceeds to said tavern with two or three underlings. Upon arrival, the Sergeant 'power emotes' blocking off one exit while underling 1 and 2 block whatever other exits there are. The criminal, who spots trouble, pops up and proceeds to 'power emote' running at Sergeant brick-wall to break through and into safety.

Who's in the wrong?

Example two:

If you didn't use the power emote in the same scene, and just walked in and typed 'guard n' along with underling one typing 'guard w' and number three typing 'guard s' and the criminal pops up and types 'run' and 'n'. Who's wrong?

My personal take on example one, is if a criminal was silly enough to be caught red-handed in a tavern where Militia/Sun legions patrol after being silly enough to have done something that attracted enough attention that the Militia/Sun legions would recognize you for right off, or have been tipped off about what you've done, then tough. You've been caught and need to own up to the IC actions and consequences bit. (This varies, of course, such as if there were five criminals in the tavern and three militia, the chances are two criminals could knock that militia sergeant or whichever aside and book with the rest) Common sense.

In example two, I want to cry, because not only do we see the exact same problem but we also lose the emotes and are lowered to the hack and slash who can type what the fastest mentality.

Now, my post isn't meant to beat on criminal types, as I've played my share. The exact same holds true if three assassins or some such corner a militia officer in some back alleyway for an assassination. That soldier went were they shouldn't have or didn't take proper care in where they were going, got caught, and need to take that blade in the back or ass kicking for slipping up.

Thoughts?

[Rindan]

In the case you describe, I honestly think that the proper answer is for the three militiamen to use the guard command to guard the doorway.  You have to use your judgment.  An elf that sees three militiamen in the doorway is entirely justified in thinking that he might be fast enough to slip by without them getting a grip.  A beefy warrior type might rightfully believe that he can batter his way past.  There is also the added problem that you are asking the criminal to trust you.  If three guys stand in the door, then I assume none of them are going to suddenly try and toss a subdue command because they are by the door.  There is also the concern that the code is going to manhandled the criminal in question.  If the criminal is intent on struggling and decides that he is going to wait until one of them moves from the door to try and subdue him, he is going to get ganked by the entire city.  Once  he gets his merry crime flag, the entire city automagikally is going to be after him.  Criminals who are not blessed with high hides and sneaks tend to be jumpy because of this very reason.  The decks are radically stacked against them.

In such ugly situations, I suggest using the code first and RP second.  As the militiamen, use the guard command, and then RP what  you are doing.  Many people will go along with it.  Those who think they are justified in thinking that they can still break through should go ahead and give it a try.  Just be considerate in the fact that if you are emoting standing by a doorway, you shouldn't be throwing out coded subdues.

This isn't universal.  There are times when I think people ignore emoting in favor of letting the code let them do what they want.  I recall many years back when a sergeant of mine passed out.  The second she passed out, three of us were up on our feet, weapons drawn, and declared that any person who came close was going to get cut in half (and we had the authority to do it).  Despite this, some elf thought that it would be an awesome idea to steal her Anakore gloves anyways because everyone knows that sleeping people always fail their pick pocket checks.  So, we have three armed people with the intent to murder telling anyone who comes close that they are dead, and this thief decides that not only does he get by all three of us despite our threats to kill anyone coming close, but he removes her bladed gloves without slicing off his own fingers.  It 'twas lame.

The code is there to arbitrate when there is no clear solution.  When there is a clear solution, or the two people consent as to what happened, then emoting works great.  When there is some question as to what the outcome is going to be, the code is a good judge when a staff member isn't sitting over your shoulder calling the shots.

[Salt Merchant]

Definitely, use the guard command and then emote after it.

If the code lets the running elf slip by too often, I believe the correct approach would be to lobby to have the code modified to reduce the probability of this.

In Rindan's counterexample, I believe the correct approach would be to modify the code to make the pickpocket attempt have to pass checks for whoever is guarding the unconscious person.

[Raesanos]

What I encounter is this kind of scenario:

Dwarf power-emotes grabbing an elf.
Elf emotes slipping away.
Dwarf emails in to complain that the elf could never have gotten away.
Elf emails in to complain that the dwarf shouldn't have power-emoted.

Ultimately, the code is there to make these decisions, because with the limited information that the game provides there is no way to authoritatively say what could and could not have happened.  Since this is a MUD rather than a MUSH or some other type of game, the code determines what actually happens.

If the code is coming to bad conclusions, the code should be adjusted.  Feel free to let us know about cases where you think the code is insufficient.  We try to make it as realistic as possible.

If someone thinks the code is insufficient and wants to decide that they can't do something that the code lets them do, thats fine.  But if a someone decides they can do something the code doesn't let them do, that causes problems.

In the case of the elf escaping the 3 guards, if the elf wanted to decide they could never get past them, thats fine.  But the code says they could somehow slip by.  Its not hard to imagine a way for this to be possible.  A running dive between two people?  Pushing past them?  There are a lot of possibilities, so if the code says something is possible, a little imagination generally yields a plausible cause.  If you still think the code should be tweaked, again, the right thing to do is to let the staff know about it.

[Cerelum]

In the case of the elf escaping the 3 guards, if the elf wanted to decide they could never get past them, thats fine.  But the code says they could somehow slip by.  Its not hard to imagine a way for this to be possible.  A running dive between two people?  Pushing past them?  There are a lot of possibilities, so if the code says something is possible, a little imagination generally yields a plausible cause.  If you still think the code should be tweaked, again, the right thing to do is to let the staff know about it.

Right, Elves are supposed to be more dexterious then humans and definately moreso then Dwarves... Who's to say the elf didn't jump onto a table, kick ale into the dwarf's eyes then sprint past as he's complaining about wasting good ale?

The code is the "Gamemaster" so to speak, not the players, and I've been screwed and benefitted on this from each side, it sucks when it's against you, it's awesome when it's with you.

The things that I think Rae here is getting as is gay bugs like this..

half-giant subdues you
You are dragged away, then so and so hits you and knocks you into unconsciousness, whole time the half giant is subduing you.
minutes go by, you finally awaken from being knocked out.
You are now being carried through the town, you want to make a few last minute writhes or attempts to flee with your 140some stamina you regained from your nap
you type flee
you get, "You're too relaxed to do that!"

And then Jarod cusses as the computer and demands to know if the half-giant is giving him some type of deep tissue massage that doesn't allow him to attempt to flee. GAY!

shit like that should be fixed...hint,hint.

[brytta.leofa]

Using the code correctly is a critical part of roleplaying on Armageddon, IMO.

[X-D]

Sometimes You have  to consider the situation as well. Like if I'm playing a half-giant and I emote walking over and pinning your elf against the bar, is it a power emote? Maybe, but I also know that the HG is MASSIVE, and will not fail the subdue if he tries.

Sadly, people ignore it, so, normaly have to just use code...meh.

[Cerelum]

Sometimes You have  to consider the situation as well. Like if I'm playing a half-giant and I emote walking over and pinning your elf against the bar, is it a power emote? Maybe, but I also know that the HG is MASSIVE, and will not fail the subdue if he tries.

Sadly, people ignore it, so, normaly have to just use code...meh.

Exceptional agility, very good strength human evaded a half-giants subdues like 20 times in a row.  So no.. You're half-giant isn't a massive subdueing machine.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Code > Emotes in these cases.

[spawnloser]

Exceptional agility, very good strength human evaded a half-giants subdues like 20 times in a row.  So no.. You're half-giant isn't a massive subdueing machine.

You'd think so, but when I played a HG with the skill, I never failed a subdue attempt against anything... and I tried against just about everything I came across.  Don't assume anything, one way or the other.  The code resolves all disputes.

[Raesanos]

Don't assume anything, one way or the other.

Very good advice!

Even if you are 100% sure half giants could always subdue elves, or whatever it is, there could be exceptional circumstances.  Maybe they have an agility spell that gives them superhuman agility?  Anything is possible.  If you let the staff know about things that seem wrong rather than getting pissed off at the other person, things work out much better.

[Ghost]

To the original poster:  Militia should have used the guard command in my opinion.  There is an option of emoting to chop someone's head off, and actually doing it.  There is no guarantee that you will be able to accomplish it, there is no guarantee your victim will definitely escape.  So let the code decide who is buff and who is buffer if it is a question of that kind.

Rindan's example:  I would have emailed the elf in question.  By the way, I thought the guard command would also be effective even if the victim is sleeping and a would be thief was attempting something?  Is it not so?

[Rindan]

Rindan's example:  I would have emailed the elf in question.  By the way, I thought the guard command would also be effective even if the victim is sleeping and a would be thief was attempting something?  Is it not so?

This was back before the guard command would defend against pick pockets and I did indeed pass on my thoughts via the staff.  That said, even if the guard command does prevent pick pockets, people do need to take context into account.  The reason why someone can try and run past three militiamen emoting that they are guarding a door is because the guard command was made for exactly that purpose.

There is a place for emoting out actions, even when there is rough code analogy.  The code does a very poor job determining when one side or the other has an extreme advantage.  Three armed men with the power of law on their side declaring that they will chop anyone down who comes close is enough of an advantage where anyone who isn't magikally invisible should realize that a pick pocket attempt will fail, irregardless of whether or not the code allows it.  If you are hidden in a room, and a person walks in and starts methodically searching the room, you should reveal yourself even though they don't have scan and never in a million years will find you according to the code.

While the code is there to arbitrate most of the time, and does a good job most of the time, don't assume that just because the code lets you do something that it is right.  There is no hard and fast rules.  In general, default to letting code decide things, but use your own judgment as to when it is appropiate to let code decide, and when it is time to 'do the right thing' and let reason decide.

[Ghost]

I agree the situation you posted is not "code lets me do it" kind.  It is not in the same regard as the OP's original question.  I just wondered if the guard code is working against opportunists trying to steal from unconcious.

[JustAnotherGuy]

There is a place for emoting out actions, even when there is rough code analogy.  The code does a very poor job determining when one side or the other has an extreme advantage.  Three armed men with the power of law on their side declaring that they will chop anyone down who comes close is enough of an advantage where anyone who isn't magikally invisible should realize that a pick pocket attempt will fail, irregardless of whether or not the code allows it.  If you are hidden in a room, and a person walks in and starts methodically searching the room, you should reveal yourself even though they don't have scan and never in a million years will find you according to the code.

Actually, if you wanted to use an example like this...  Someone that is doing a methodical search, that person is taking there time.  Someone that is hiding, would easily see that this person is searching and could move around the room still hiding to keep away from the person that is searching.  That is why there is code for these things, so that someone that has sharp eyes, can use the scan ability.  Where as the person that has the hide command, knows how to hide and get away from people that are looking for them.  Just walking in and saying you are searching for someone, doesn't mean you'll find them.  A bar full of people is an extremely hard place to find someone, as they could be slipping amongst people to get away from the searcher.  Or say there is a shadow filled room, said person that is hiding could easily slip from shadow to shadow while the searcher is looking around.  The scan command does work sometimes when you don't have the ability, are you good at searching though?  No...  that's why you don't have the skill.

Even in a situation like that, code is there for a reason.

[Rindan]

Actually, if you wanted to use an example like this...  Someone that is doing a methodical search, that person is taking there time.  Someone that is hiding, would easily see that this person is searching and could move around the room still hiding to keep away from the person that is searching.  That is why there is code for these things, so that someone that has sharp eyes, can use the scan ability.  Where as the person that has the hide command, knows how to hide and get away from people that are looking for them.  Just walking in and saying you are searching for someone, doesn't mean you'll find them.  A bar full of people is an extremely hard place to find someone, as they could be slipping amongst people to get away from the searcher.  Or say there is a shadow filled room, said person that is hiding could easily slip from shadow to shadow while the searcher is looking around.  The scan command does work sometimes when you don't have the ability, are you good at searching though?  No...  that's why you don't have the skill.

Even in a situation like that, code is there for a reason.

In a shadowy tavern?  Sure.  I will happily give the benefit of the doubt that a determined warrior Byner without the scan skill should stand little chance of finding someone who is good at hiding.    The problem is that unless a room is tagged as no-hide, you are going to stand roughly the same chance of spotting someone in a tavern mobbed with a hundred people and with poor lighting, as you are going to find someone hiding in your 10 by 10 apartment.  Even if the rooms have modifiers, unless you consider yourself to be the most uber elite assassin of them all, you should know when you are beat.  The code will let someone with a decent hide skill stay perfectly invisible no matter what happens against a person with no scan skill.  The code is not a catch all.  It doesn't take everything into consideration.  It looks at a small handful of variables, rolls some dice, and ignores everything else.  You, as a reasonable human, should be able to spot when the code is going to fail in properly resolving the situation by acting accordingly.

Most of the time code works well enough to arbitrate, but as a responsible player you should act when it fails.  I doubt you will get in much trouble for sticking entirely to code unless you commit some grievous violation.  That said, you don't garner much trust from other people (not to mention you make for a dull story teller) when you live and die by the code. 

Let me sum this up better:

[lurkus ignoramus]

If the code is coming to bad conclusions, the code should be adjusted.  Feel free to let us know about cases where you think the code is insufficient.  We try to make it as realistic as possible.

What is it about the code in the "hide" and "scan" skills that makes them follow a different set of rules?

Why wouldn't a player trust the code's decisions, when that is what it is there for?

[staggerlee]

I'm inclined to agree with Rindan.  Code is all well and good, but you also need to take the environment into account. Use your head.

Code wise, I can draw a flaming steel broadsword in the market place and say to myself "all the other players are in Tuluk, nobody can find out."   But that's ignoring the huge crowd of virtual npcs, and just bad play all around.

Code wise, I can hide in one room apartment, while someone else is having a conversation with me.  Never mind that it's probably impossible.  Again, just bad play.

I can "emote: spits at the blue robed npc templar" and probably get away with it too. Again, bad play.

Code is all well and good, but we also need to take the virtual world and other people's rp into account. The world is not just the sum of what the code allows you to do.  We can't rely on the staff to step in and animate a virtual crowd, npc, or change the code every time we're retarded.  We need to police ourselves and be better players so that they don't have to do that. 

[Rindan]

What is it about the code in the "hide" and "scan" skills that makes them follow a different set of rules?

Why wouldn't a player trust the code's decisions, when that is what it is there for?

Mostly because scan is something that is only semi-active.  Scan doesn't know the difference between, "I am being aware while I walk down the street" and "I am searching this room from top to bottom and doing nothing else".  We have a class system that kicks you in the nuts for trying to use a skill you don't have.  You can be sitting in a relatively empty room without a no-hide flag, hide, and then start whispering into the ear of a person trying to find you.  If they don't have the scan skill, they are SOL. 

I don't mean to pick on scan or hide.  There are other instances where the code bombs.  All interactions with NPCs tend to come out poorly if you use the code only.  If you want to be a real ass hole, there are lots of combat abuses, choo-choo training of NPCs, and all sorts of ugly things you can technically do.  Give me a desert elf and I will lead a host of horrors to Allanak's gate and murder everyone trying to leave them until a staff member shows up to grind my face into dust.  I can emote standing by the doorway, and proceed to pick pocket everyone in the room.  Someone can emote standing off from me, and I can still reach across the street to backstab them... and speaking of backstab, there is no end to the abusive things you can do with that skill until a staff member comes down to crush your head.  You can loot a clan store room clean in front of guards.  You can have a bar fight that lasts for three days.

Code comes in slowly over time.  For many, many, many years we didn't have the watch command and you could do all sorts of stupid "stealthy" things while a guy emoted watching you.  As I said earlier, the guard command didn't always guard against pick pockets.  When code fills in the loop holes, great.  The staff has done a great job filling in a lot of loop holes, especially over the last couple of years.  Until a loop hole is covered though, you need to use a little common sense.  If you want to hide against my character without the scan skill in his apartment and then taunt him knowing that he has no way of catching you short of staff intervention, great.  You might or might not get spanked by the staff.  That said, I will certainly think you are an asshole and endeavor to not play with you. 

The code lets you do all sorts of dumb things, and you can't possibly close every loop hole or get the code to account for every single factor that might make the normal dice rolls crap.  I am just saying use a little common sense.

[lurkus ignoramus]

Code wise, I can draw a flaming steel broadsword in the market place and say to myself "all the other players are in Tuluk, nobody can find out."   But that's ignoring the huge crowd of virtual npcs, and just bad play all around.

Code wise, I can hide in one room apartment, while someone else is having a conversation with me.  Never mind that it's probably impossible.  Again, just bad play.

I can "emote: spits at the blue robed npc templar" and probably get away with it too. Again, bad play.

Are three straw men better than one?

Is being able to say something and then hide immediately inappropriate code?

Is this something that could be addressed with the code?

Have you tried doing as Raesanos suggested, and bugged or otherwise commented on this perceived flaw?

What does ignoring NPCs and VNPCs (the main issue with the two other straw men) have to do with power emoting (or bad code)?

Does "methodically searching" for "professional" hiders when you do not have the coded skills to back it up constitute power emoting?

[staggerlee]

Are three straw men better than one?

That wasn't a straw man.  I wasn't responding to anyone's argument, and certainly wasn't setting up a strawman counter to do so.  I was citing examples where the game world could fail to be represented by the code.

Is being able to say something and then hide immediately inappropriate code?

Depending on the circumstances, it could be extremely poor rp.  If I was standing face to face, talking to someone in a small empty room and they vanished I'd have some serious questions.  In a crowded bar, or a dark alley, or with an appropriate leading emote it might feel a lot less jarring, and a lot more realistic.

Is this something that could be addressed with the code?

Possibly.  I'd imagine that having modifiers to hide checks in all rooms would help, and at some points the watch command could be used.  A less extreme hide/scan system that didn't just roll checks against each other?  So yes, it could be addressed by code. In theory.

Have you tried doing as Raesanos suggested, and bugged or otherwise commented on this perceived flaw?

I think I just did comment on it.  Those were theoretical examples, so bugging them would be sort of obnoxious.

What does ignoring NPCs and VNPCs (the main issue with the two other straw men) have to do with power emoting (or bad code)?

Does "methodically searching" for "professional" hiders when you do not have the coded skills to back it up constitute power emoting?

It has everything to do with it.  My point is that the code is not the here all and the end all, we also need to rp and take the virtual world into account.   
I know it's sexy to toss the word strawman around, because everyone knows somebody who's taken a philosophy of logic 101 course, but those weren't strawman arguments. 

[lurkus ignoramus]

Why does the edit button never seem to load the edit page for me?

I don't mean to pick on scan or hide.  There are other instances where the code bombs.  All interactions with NPCs tend to come out poorly if you use the code only.

Why can't these bugs be reported and fixed?

Why would a discussion about power emoting, that is emotes vs. coded commands have anything to do with NPC interactions?

Why does everyone enjoy knocking around silly straw men?

The code lets you do all sorts of dumb things, and you can't possibly close every loop hole or get the code to account for every single factor that might make the normal dice rolls crap.

Why can't this be fixed?  What makes loopholes not closeable?

[lurkus ignoramus]

My point is that the code is not the here all and the end all, we also need to rp and take the virtual world into
account.

What does your point have to do with power emoting?

Didn't the staff just remind us that when emotes and code clash, the code > emotes?

Isn't that why we have it?

If it is representing things wrong, shouldn't it be fixed?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Simple fix. Tags for rooms that indicate either penalties to hiding or additions to scan. Make the flags scalable from 0 to 100.

[Troicha]

The spirit of the staff's intervention was not simply that code trumps emotes, but that simulations of reality trump simulations of unreality, and specifically as regards emotes, in areas which the code handles well, that the code trumps said emotes. However, the code should not be trusted in areas where the code is recognized faulty.

Discussion as to what those areas are is still open.