Materials.

What is a common building material for buildings and stuff? I see alot of mudbrick buildings, or clay or whatever... but I was under the assumption that mud was garnered through wet sand... and that mudbricks would be produced by 'baking' bricks of wet sand in the sun til they hardened. This seemed like an extraordinary waste of water, and Im wondering if there is some other common technique or material for the constrcution of building.

[Bestatte]

It's sand mixed with the blood of elven sacrifices. That's how come it's red!

[John]

A wizard did it

[Angela Christine]

Yes, mud brick does use water, but is the water really wasted?  Is it a bigger waste than the water drunk by elves and beggers?  A well built mud brick building can last for centuries in a dry climate, and is probably worth more than the slaves you kill building it.  

Also, as Bestatte hinted, you don't have to use pottable water.  Most any kind of moisture will do, but water is cheaper than most of the other available liquids since those liquids are created using water.  You could use undrinkable water though, waste water from washing, dying, tanning and other industrial processes, water from mineral springs that is too high in minerals to be safe to drink, liquid harvested from poisonous cacti and other plants, or perhaps even moisture leached out from midden heaps, compost piles and latrines.

AC

[God]

Heh, the houses are soaked in blood and piss. Nobody told me they stank that much.

[Sandferret]

When the bricks are 'baked' the moisture escapes to the air. Even though we never see rain, it will return to the ground somehow. So, it is not wasted in reality as it doesn't stay in the brick.

As for the smells they too would mostly dissipate during the 'baking'. If waste water is used, it would probably be unwise to linger in the vicinity of freshly molded tiles as the fumes could be poisonous.

[God]

I don't know about the science of it, but I don't really think the stank would leave after the baking. The water would dissipate, but it would leave behind all the minerals, ect, causing the clay to stink. Just my conjecture.

[God]

On another subject, I have never heard any rain at all on Zalanthas, and Zalanthas is not Earth, as I've heard(Are there clouds on Zalanthas?). We have to assume that it doesn't return to Zalanthas then, except perhaps through magic. All the characters ICly have to assume this especially, because they are not scientists and do not have a scientific background.

[creeper386]

Well, I'm sorry what you well assume. But I'm going to assume the water doesn't just up and leave the planet... Things would end up dead. I'm guessing most civilizations have rumors or legends of the lakes and such. It's probably know there IS water on the ground. And I'm sure theres even some about underground water. They may not even know about vaporation or anything. But I'm guessing unless they thing the water comes from the earth and gets baked away to disapear they don't think it just goes away.

And ICally I don't think many people would CARE even. OOCily I'm going to assume the water doesn't just leave the planet. Theres a good chance even in that much heat that any moisture is used before it gets evaporated. Ever spilled water in a really dry place? Specially sand? Ussually it sinks into the sand. Or the soil sops it up, and what not.

And alot of the stink would dissipate I beleive. I do know that mud can REALLY stink but when it dries it doesn't smell at all even if you bring it right up to your nose. It's probably still there, but baked INTO the brick. Contained in the dirt/sand all that stuff.


Creeper

[crymerci]

If the moisture is present, but scant, it would come to ground as dew and never build up enough to become rain.

And yeah, I see water being frequently reused for as many purposes as possible, so I would suspect washwater or sewer water would be used to make mudbrick (certainly in the commoner areas, at least).

[gfair]

I don't see the mud brick angle... wood and stone I can understand.  Wood and stone are, much more than water, commonly available.

Water is a scarce and extraordinarily valuable resource on Zalanthas.

Clerics of the water are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas.

Water clerics are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.

I take from these terms that water is something people will kill for, for example oases in the deserts.  Why anyone would use water to make mud, rather than chop down a tree or carve stone blocks, seems an excessive waste of it, and putting so much water into making mud bricks (it's a water-intensive process in real life, should be in Arm too) would be sheer lunacy to the average Zalanthan mind.

[Rindan]

I don't think mud brick is as crazy as you think.  Water simply can turn bad and be absolutely unusable.  Water can kill humans, plants, and animals if it is contaminated enough.  It isn't like they have any clue how to filter it.  They don't even understand the concept of germ theory, much less what it takes to make water potable again.  Why not use all that waste water into something worthwhile like building material?  It might not be pretty, but it is better insulation then pure stone and a hell of a lot longer lasting and cheaper then wood.

I imagine to the average Allanaki citizen, the issue isn't so much getting water, but getting water that won't kill you.

[Twilight]

I submitted a building for Allanak awhile back that was made of mud.  Several reasons why I did this.  First, dirt, which one can use to make mud, is available everywhere.  No needing mass quantities of wood imported from the north.  Stone would work I guess, but mud would I think provide better insulation.  Remember, you want to keep the interior as cool as possible.  One thing I was thinking of was adobe, which was a very common building material in arid climates.  Also, I've seen pictures of entire mud brick cities in Africa, where basically every building is made of mud, and that was a bit of inspiration as well.

Finally, I suppose you could use blood/piss/washwater etc.  Personally, I wasn't thinking of those sources of water, but rather pulled on some IC specific knowledge of water sources to justify it being possible to make mud bricks.

[creeper386]

Heck... Mud bricks could easiely be a bigger thing in the north where I geuss some of these drinking things are being used. Bake them somewhere around where the mud was dug up and everything. SHRUG. All sorts of ways it could be done.

[gfair]

I don't think mud brick is as crazy as you think.  Water simply can turn bad and be absolutely unusable.  Water can kill humans, plants, and animals if it is contaminated enough.  It isn't like they have any clue how to filter it.  They don't even understand the concept of germ theory, much less what it takes to make water potable again.  Why not use all that waste water into something worthwhile like building material?  It might not be pretty, but it is better insulation then pure stone and a hell of a lot longer lasting and cheaper then wood.

I imagine to the average Allanaki citizen, the issue isn't so much getting water, but getting water that won't kill you.

Perhaps this is true, but if water is so precious, I doubt waste water would be created in anywhere close to the quantities that would allow mud buildings to be anything but rare.  If water is, as the quotes say, the most valuable commodity (commodity meaning available, as opposed to metal, extremely valuable, but it's rare like a rainy day in the South) then people would take far greater care with their water.  Many uses of water that would result in undrinkable water would be considered a horribly expensive waste, so much so that it might be a punishable offense if the water belongs to a House or Tribe.  Take bathing - there is a reason why almost everybody in Arm smells like dust and sweat.  Then there's this undrinkable water - I'm guessing the intelligent species in Arm are far more tolerant to water than we are.  I look at Dogs as an example - dogs can eat feces and dead animals, let alone water with bacteria in it, because their immune systems are unbelievably strong.  But those things would quite possibly kill any of us.  So clearly, there are stronger immune systems, and I'm guessing if the intelligent bipeds in Arm are tougher in terms of physical toughness, then their immune systems are stronger as well.

Actually - during the middle ages, drinkable water was so scarce that mead was the common drink, because it had just enough alcohol to kill off the bacteria and virii to make the mead drinkable.

So waste water - there would undoubtedly be waste water created, but mud brick crafting is a water-intense process (anywhere between 10% to 18% of the average brick's mass is water when put into a press).  There would have to be a ton of waste water created to use in a mud building.

I don't have time to do the math, but I think it points to mud not being viable due to the tremendous use of water.

[gfair]

First, dirt, which one can use to make mud, is available everywhere.

This seems a bit of a strange assumption - Allanak is surrounded by sand, not dirt, and sand can't be made into anything.  If dirt was available commonly in the south, that would definitely be represented.  Mud would be very scarce in the South, perhaps akin to water in its scarcity almost.  Perhaps you meant Tuluk?  I see sap used in building materials in the North, an interesting alternative to water for compound materials.

Stone would work I guess, but mud would I think provide better insulation.  Remember, you want to keep the interior as cool as possible.

Actually, from the documents I used to find information on mud brick and water usage, I found out that mud is actually a very poor insulator.  Definitely not something to have on a scorching hot day or a cool night.  Both wood and stone are better insulators than mud.

[Lazloth]

Allanak is surrounded by sand, not dirt, and sand can't be made into anything.

Glass is produced from a mixture of silica-sand, lime and soda, coloured with the copper ore malachite and fused at a high temperature.

Allanak might give new meaning to the concept of 'glass houses'!

[creeper386]

If dirt was available commonly in the south, that would definitely be represented. Mud would be very scarce in the South, perhaps akin to water in its scarcity almost. Perhaps you meant Tuluk? I see sap used in building materials in the North, an interesting alternative to water for compound materials.

So, all that farmland around Allanak is a bunch of useless sand? Thats good to know. In that case I think being able to forage for roots around Allanak should be drastically changed because you CERTAINLY couldn't forage that amount of stuff from a bunch of sand.

Actually, from the documents I used to find information on mud brick and water usage, I found out that mud is actually a very poor insulator. Definitely not something to have on a scorching hot day or a cool night. Both wood and stone are better insulators than mud.

As for this, for some reason I don't beleive it's true. Adobe houses are used quite alot in history. If it was such terrible building material it's unlikely to be used. Although the places it originated from didn't have much wood, stone had to have been some place.

Also, sandstone is probably a fairly used building material. I think Allanak's walls are sandstone aren't they? Most the time sandstone can be strong enough to make large houses even. Could even use a coat of mud or something that would protect it. Probably not going to be great for insulation, but it would protect from sand storms. In the known world, rain isn't common. They'd need protection from sun and sand basically. Most earth made houses would absorb alot of heat during the day and probably keep things warmer during the night. Adobe houses are ussually VERY cool inside during the day but the walls tend to be warm. SHRUG.

Creeper who is just thinking.

[X-D]

X-D is also thinking, and so did a bit of checking also, found quite a bit on adobe and mud brick (along with materials made from animal waste) And I could not find any city/town/village or even small family dwelling made of such materials that was NOT very close to a large supply of water, even in arid zones, wether it be the nile, the rio grande, the med, or in some cases salt lakes and seas or mountain fed wells.

In a large % of cases the mud used was river mud, dug from the banks.

Also, in the south there is a general lack of vegitation and mud brick needs a large amount or reinforcement (straw, grass, reed etc) else it cracks and crumbles rather easily.

Mud has been used to face stone/wood buildings, mostly in order to seal the cracks and joints to stop hot/cold wind and sand from getting in, but again it needs reinforcement and repair on a frequent schedule.


I do not really see mud as a building material in zalanthas.

Allanak's Northeast, Northcenter, and Northwest sides are dune-ish like, crescent, saraha-esque deserts.

Allanak's Southwest, and Southeast are a short bit rocky wastelands before turning to dry fields of dirt sand, and such. I picture High California Desert. Allanaks Center South is 'dry fields' of dirt, and very slimly arable ground. There are farms and what not, and Im guessing this is where alot of dirt for mud brick would come from.

[God]

It's fairly obvious that none of you really and truly know the truth as far as the farmland, sand, and all that is concerned.

Personally, I'm skeptical about arable land without rivers and rain, but I guess they just have to pour tons of conjured water on these farms periodically. Or these plants don't require water, or what?

[Rindan]

It's fairly obvious that none of you really and truly know the truth as far as the farmland, sand, and all that is concerned.

Personally, I'm skeptical about arable land without rivers and rain, but I guess they just have to pour tons of conjured water on these farms periodically. Or these plants don't require water, or what?

Or they have water sources, be they wells, springs, or magik, or from some other source, and they spend most of their time watering the crops.  I don't know of any earthly crop that needs so little water that you can keep it alive with just a little water here and there (as irrigation is clearly out), but Zalanthas certainly seems to have something that works.  They just have found some very low water crop that is nutritious enough to keep the people moving.

[Angela Christine]

Or they have water sources, be they wells, springs, or magik, or from some other source, and they spend most of their time watering the crops.  I don't know of any earthly crop that needs so little water that you can keep it alive with just a little water here and there (as irrigation is clearly out), but Zalanthas certainly seems to have something that works.  They just have found some very low water crop that is nutritious enough to keep the people moving.

Yeah, my impression from the times I've hung out around the farms, the farming villages, and Red Storm East is that they use good old bucket irrigation.  It is very labour intensive, but wastes very little water since you have people hand watering the plants.  (Unless you consider the water drunk by the slaves to be wasted).

Permanent construction does use a lot of water, no matter what building material you use.  If you want temporary tents you may not need water, but constructing permanent buildings uses resources.  It is worthwhile because the building is a long-lasting investment.  Wood is simply untennable as a building material in the south, the cost of importing that much lumber would be astronomical.  Stone isn't much better, because you have to hew great blocks of stone or use a morter compound.  

The price of water is variable.  In Red Storm water costs 2 or 3 times as much as it does a few miles away in Allanak, no doubt supply and demand is in play here since many residents of Red Storm can not go up to 'nak to buy their water.  In 'nak you'll pay much more for water at a restaraunt than you will at the temple, but even at the temple you are basically buying the equivilent of bottled water.  Buying water by the gallon is for suckers, even in Canada, which has more fresh water than anyone, you're going to pay at least a buck or two for a gallon of water if you go and buy it in a store by the gallon.  No doubt the big Noble and Merchant Houses get a bulk rate, and they are probably the only people that could afford to construct large buildings anyway.  

Many of them may even keep a few Vivaduans on the payroll, if I were doing construction I'd want a Vivaduan and a Rukkian on my team.  Magick is the evironmentaly damaging technology Zalanthians use instead of oil and electrically powered machines.

AC

[creeper386]

Also, in the south there is a general lack of vegitation and mud brick needs a large amount or reinforcement (straw, grass, reed etc) else it cracks and crumbles rather easily.

Allanak has farm lands. Also there is wheat and such grown in Red Storm or RSE, whichever.  Also it doesn't just need to be mud. Could also be using clay which probably would be abundant SOMEPLACE. Clay is really easy to find in lots of places.

Personally, I'm skeptical about arable land without rivers and rain, but I guess they just have to pour tons of conjured water on these farms periodically.

Well, I live in eastern Washington. Most of the region is just above desert in terms of amount of precip, and alot of that comes during winter. Most the of the region also has no water from rivers, lakes or anything else. Although with irrigation we can grow most anything. Most of the crops around here are dry-land. Wheat, barley and other things like that. It grows fairly decently even if we get hardly any water.

Although we get alot more water compared to Zalanthas, it takes VERY little water to grow crops. Although alot of newer crops are more resistant, wheat, barley different oats and such can grow with barely little water. And I currently live in an area that has better land. The scab rock and such around here, most of that is rock, very little soil, very little rain, and grows enough for cows to free graze and such.

Creeper

[gfair]

So, all that farmland around Allanak is a bunch of useless sand? Thats good to know. In that case I think being able to forage for roots around Allanak should be drastically changed because you CERTAINLY couldn't forage that amount of stuff from a bunch of sand.

Ah, yeah, forgot about those.  Then again, you'd think, with the topsoil being dry as heck, and very airborne (thus scarce) that farmers wouldn't bite the hand that feeds them, and use their precious soil to make houses, diminishing the fertility of their land, and yielding ever-poorer crops.  This, over the lifespan of a lifelong farmer, would be observed, I think, and discouraged.

Look at the great plains in Canada, and probably the US as well - they just went through one of the greatest droughts ever, and when it's dry like that, and windy, the wind peels off the topsoil like sand in a desert, and losing that topsoil, which takes decades to form, can put farmers out of business.

As for this, for some reason I don't beleive it's true. Adobe houses are used quite alot in history. If it was such terrible building material it's unlikely to be used. Although the places it originated from didn't have much wood, stone had to have been some place.

It is true.  I went to three sites for adobe brick builders, and every one of them said adobe made a poor insulator.  It neither keeps heat out, nor in:

http://www.possumpages.com.au/walden/mud.htm

Right-hand column, third bullet.

http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/yourhome/technical/fs34d.htm

Last bullet, under the "Insulation" title.

http://www.makeitmudbricks.com.au/efficiency.html

This page is devoted to the insulative characteristics of mud brick - it states that in winter, mud brick is beneficial because it heats up during the day, stores that heat, and that carries over to the nighttime, helping to keep the house warmer.  This, from the other perspective, means that mud brick doesn't keep heat out, it absorbs it, so on a hot Zalanthan day it will heat up and release that heat into the house, making it unbearably hot. That may be beneficial on "cool" nights, which to me sounds like they would be "bloody cold" to the average Zalanthan who would be acclimatized to the weather.  So on cool days it may be beneficial, and on hot days a nightmare.  Wood, on the other hand, would be cool in the day, and cool at night, same with stone.

[Cenghiz]

An idea for the farmlands... There are strange types of plants in Earth, sucking nitrogen from the air. So some plants may suck the humidity of the air. Evaluation, that's the trick which may be used to explain everything weird. Or maybe they have microskopic unseen roots reaching some underground water supply. But still, all lawful characters I played peed in farmlands, onto a plant. Let it be a habit, so poor 'nakkians may have more flour to make some semi-satisfying travel cakes. Think of the pees of thousands of people. Even this may be enough for farms. And our great nobles would have more mud to build, and we would be stronger against Tuluk with more wonderous buildings. I'll add 'Let's pee on plants.' to my sign.... Or I won't.

Cenghiz, who's confused about the things he's saying.

[creeper386]

That may be beneficial on "cool" nights, which to me sounds like they would be "bloody cold" to the average Zalanthan who would be acclimatized to the weather. So on cool days it may be beneficial, and on hot days a nightmare. Wood, on the other hand, would be cool in the day, and cool at night, same with stone.

Well. I'm thinking every night would be cool. Most the time deserts don't have the cloud coverage to keep heat in. The sun goes down. Things cool DRASTICally. Normally the bricks heat up during the day. They absorb alot of the heat, and at night they keep things warm and cool back down. And the inside of the house is left with an opposite system, staying cool in the day because the brick absorbs the heat and staying warmer at night. It DOES let heat and cold in and out, but not quickly, and thats why the buildings walls are built thicker then a wood house and such. Normally the hotter it is, more drastic the change between heat day/night the thicker the walls to slow down the exchange.

And it says adobe houses are poor at insulating do to being very dense... And you think stone is a better insulator then adobe? It really does the same thing. The stone heats up when it's hot, and cools down when it's cool. This does help things when inside the house it's cool, so the inside part of the wall is cool, the outside is hot. As long as the wall is thick enough that the heat takes time to move through the wall, it works out.

Creeper

[creeper386]

http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/yourhome/technical/fs17.htm

Thats just one of the things. I beleive all of those sites also talk about the thermal mass. Mud brick, stone and such takes a fairly long time to absorb things. Thats why castles even during hot days, well be cold inside. It takes time for the heat to reach the inside of the walls.

These types of building materials WOULD be good for Zalanthas and any real world place where the tempeture doesn't chance alot, so the building can be designed for one season and be perfectly fine. It more moderate areas it's harder to design the houses, because there are different seasons and such.

Creeper

[gfair]

Thats just one of the things. I beleive all of those sites also talk about the thermal mass. Mud brick, stone and such takes a fairly long time to absorb things. Thats why castles even during hot days, well be cold inside. It takes time for the heat to reach the inside of the walls.

And this is the idea - you don't want to use mud brick because in the daytime it heats up and there is no relief from the sun inside or out because the bricks are radiating all that heat.  The only time it's good is on cool days and nights, when these heated bricks continue to heat the house.

These types of building materials WOULD be good for Zalanthas and any real world place where the tempeture doesn't chance alot, so the building can be designed for one season and be perfectly fine. It more moderate areas it's harder to design the houses, because there are different seasons and such.

How well does mud compare to stone and wood, though?  Sure, you can build with mud - all you need is a heck of a lot of water, and you end up with a building that won't provide relief from heat during the day, and most days in Zalanthas are spent hot.  So now you're wasting a lot of water AND you end up with a house hotter than if you'd used wood and not spent tons of money on water.

Why not use sand and sap instead?  Sap isn't water, so it doesn't fit at the top of the hierarchy of needs in a desert environment.  Or wood - in the North, wood is everywhere.  In the south, you have stone from obsidian mines, the shield wall, and potential other sources.  Stone takes a great long time to shape, unless it's sandstone which takes a lot less.  Or the other softer rocks like jasper, perhaps.

Bottom line - I would think the requirement of water would kill mud housing.  Then there's the fact that mud bricks or walls crack extremely easily, which is compounded by greater temperature differentials, and Zalanthan days can see great temperature differences between noon and night.  Then the fact that there are many easier building materials that don't use the precious water.

Then again - there can't be too much realism in Arm, or else you end up with the text version of The Sims from a first-person perspective.

[Meep]

Perhaps certain farmed animals secrete a viscous, glue-like substance that are used as bonding with sand/dirt to create some sort of claylike/cement-like substance.. like termites do with wood and dung? Why not? Give a good use for kank drool.

[God]

Then again - there can't be too much realism in Arm, or else you end up with the text version of The Sims from a first-person perspective.

True, but the issue of food and where it comes from is an important one, I believe. I'd hazard to guess that the supplies issue would be very important during battles - an army of gith could probably besiege Allanak by destroying all the farms and then Allanak would starve. Or they could just burn them.

[Angela Christine]

Then again - there can't be too much realism in Arm, or else you end up with the text version of The Sims from a first-person perspective.

True, but the issue of food and where it comes from is an important one, I believe. I'd hazard to guess that the supplies issue would be very important during battles - an army of gith could probably besiege Allanak by destroying all the farms and then Allanak would starve. Or they could just burn them.

That happened, about 2 real life years ago.  Not a seige, but the gith attacked the farms en masse, killed many farm workers, and burned the crops.  The famine lasted for years, with bodies stacked up all over the city.  

AC

[Angela Christine]

First, dirt, which one can use to make mud, is available everywhere.

This seems a bit of a strange assumption - Allanak is surrounded by sand, not dirt, and sand can't be made into anything.  If dirt was available commonly in the south, that would definitely be represented.  Mud would be very scarce in the South, perhaps akin to water in its scarcity almost.  Perhaps you meant Tuluk?  I see sap used in building materials in the North, an interesting alternative to water for compound materials.

Look closer.  To the north is sand, to the south is dust and silt.  Dust basically is dirt.  Not good loam that you would use for crops, but often blowing dust turns into a heavy clay soil when you add water.

Sap might be useful for for temporary constructions like tents and shanties, but I doubt it would work well for buildings expected to stand for decades.  Sap is sticky because of the sugar, the mosture in the sap will slowly evaporate eventually leaving dry crunchy sugar that won't be able to hold anything together.  That can't be good.  Most primitive glues aren't able to hold up to high stress for a long time, you'd need to reenforce it with something.

Wood, stone and mud brick will all be very expensive building materials, which is probably why most sturdy, permanent buildings are built by rich houses rather than commoners.  A house or tennement may cost a small fortune to build, but if you plan on your house (family) using it or renting it out for the next 200 years, then the cost doesn't seem so bad.   Even when you add maintenance costs, the per year expense will be quite modest.

Angela Christine

[creeper386]

Theres one thing you aren't thinking. Most things... Heat up MUCH slower then they cool down. The sun heating up the outside IS going to heat up the mud brick, BUT the shade inside is going to help cool things off. It'll take plenty of time to heat up the WHOLE thing. Specially if the walls are thick. Like more then a foot at least. Just like with stone. You have to have thick walls not just for structural things.

TEST FOR YOU TO DO

Build a mud wall that runs north/south. Sit around when the sun is coming. Feel one side the feel the other. EVEN without it being completely enclosed the western side well be cooler then the eastern side. Then wait around later on. The eastern side well most likely be cooler then the western side.

Can even try it with clay or anything. Clays even better. Build a small pot. Set it upside down outside in the sun. Go feel it. The outside well probably be warm, the inside well be cool. Yeap.

I've worked with alot of clay and built little mud hide aways and stuff as a kid. The only problem isn't the inside cooler, it's condensation tends to build up. And you say stone is great? WTF do you think stone is? It works the same it basically is the same. And granite or something would conduct heat and cold quicker then sandstone or mudbrick or anything. Stone is more dense, it well be easier because theres less space. There is NO air ussually in stone. And if you read your webpages, the lack of air within adobe and mudbrick is WHY it's a poor insulator, but stone, just like other earth building materials are used have other benefits.

Creeper

[gfair]

Theres one thing you aren't thinking. Most things... Heat up MUCH slower then they cool down. The sun heating up the outside IS going to heat up the mud brick, BUT the shade inside is going to help cool things off. It'll take plenty of time to heat up the WHOLE thing. Specially if the walls are thick. Like more then a foot at least. Just like with stone. You have to have thick walls not just for structural things.

Oh, I realise that things heat up much slower, but what's the variable?  Heat.  Higher heat means faster heat absorption, and Nak is hot on almost every day.

Foot thick mud walls?  Well, I know it's possible to use sand as fill to reduce dependence on mud, but not that much.  Straw is another option as well.  But foot-thick walls is crazy in Zalanthas - sure, with enough distance between the hot sun and the inner chamber, everything becomes a good insulator, but there must be realistic limits, particularly in a resource-starved area like Nak.  Substituted with enough straw and sand, I could see mud walls working, but I still don't buy the economics involved with water and soil and this requirement of a foot-thick wall on all sides.

TEST FOR YOU TO DO

Build a mud wall that runs north/south. Sit around when the sun is coming. Feel one side the feel the other. EVEN without it being completely enclosed the western side well be cooler then the eastern side. Then wait around later on. The eastern side well most likely be cooler then the western side.

Sorry, I have neither the time, nor inclination to go out and build a brick wall - that's an acceptable example of cooling.  I use the knowledge of experts to support my arguments, that works much better. So sure, I think it's obvious the one side would be cooler sure - if you make a wall of any kind of material, the thicker you go, the cooler the shade side will be, but that's the extreme, we need realistic limits.

And you say stone is great? WTF do you think stone is? It works the same it basically is the same.

Well.. naturally, since there are two different characteristics here, everything works on the same guiding principles, but stone is a much nicer material than mud for your argument - lower R-value, higher thermal mass, so on those cool nights it keeps everything nice and toasty.  Further, it's available easily without consuming a resource used in food production, and it doesn't require a Vivaduan to conjure up.  Further, stone clerics could be used to create the stone buildings.  Already have, if memory serves, in at least one city in Arm. Stone doesn't require water or topsoil (two resources far more precious) and can be done simply if you don't want it looking like a pyramid for smoothness, and you could even use mud or sand & sap as your moartar for the building.  Stone should cost less monetarily if done simply, and you could rather make use of mud for mortar, or some other sap & material combination.

But ultimately, for good insulation, or at least relief from the heat, you want something incorporating wood.  Ultimately, I don't think we're going to come to a resolution without actually being able to do an actual experiment, so perhaps just agree to disagree, no?

[creeper386]

All I'm saying is mud and adobe works ALOT better then you would think. And a foot thick wall isn't really that much when concerning low technology civilizations. And considering things are low technology the walls even with wooden buildings and such are going to be fairly thick themselves. At least when concerning more permanent or nice buildings. Not something thrown together like a cheap tenement or something.

I do beleive for the most part completely wooden buildings is a fairly new thing. Untill people got alittle more wise and came to realize ways to figure out how to fix things, wooden building were more drafty, colder over all because they didn't have fancy insulation like there is currently, it was alot more expensive to build a wooden house for the most part, because you'd have to look at getting more help. It was more complicated then a mud or stone building. Specially when concerning insulation and other things.

I'm not saying that a mud or adobe house would be worthwhile on Arm. Just that it works better, and those type of houses, as well as stone most likely would be MUCH more common because they are less complicated to make and more efficient then a simple wood house. I know as a kid I've had forts made out of wood, and I've had forts made out of mud and other earth. The mud ones breath more, the wood ones either get stuffy or you have wind blowing through them, and the wood ones were always hotter while the mud ones were always cool inside.


Creeper

[Angela Christine]

I do beleive for the most part completely wooden buildings is a fairly new thing. Untill people got alittle more wise and came to realize ways to figure out how to fix things, wooden building were more drafty, colder over all because they didn't have fancy insulation like there is currently, it was alot more expensive to build a wooden house for the most part, because you'd have to look at getting more help. It was more complicated then a mud or stone building. Specially when concerning insulation and other things.

Drafty might not be so bad in a hot climate, although it would let too much dust and sand inside.  I think the main problem with wood is the difficulty with nails.  Metal nails are out, obviously.  Bone nails have to be painstakingly hand crafted.  Wooden pegs work, but then you have to drill precision holes for the pegs to fit into.  Dovetailing works (perhaps even better than nails) but is time consuming and requires a mastercraftsman to construct a dresser with no nails, an entire house built this way would take forever.  People have built log houses without nails, but they did have to use a mortar compound, and besides building a house out of logs would cost a fortune in Zalanthas.

AC

[creeper386]

Drafty if it was cold air would be nice. But when it's extremely hot air blowing in sand and dust... It probably wouldn't help the tempature inside the house.

Mud houses may not be practible in Zalanthas, but I don't think wood houses would be either. Do to the cost of would, the low technology level. Then take into account lack of metal and everything. It could be done but probably wouldn't be great. Without higher level of technology, and that wood is probably as scarse as water in the south... The south has water mages that can conjure water, but noone to conjure wood. In the north there is more wood and more water, but they also don't use magickers which would be more efficient.

Creeper who is confusing.

[gfair]

Drafty if it was cold air would be nice. But when it's extremely hot air blowing in sand and dust... It probably wouldn't help the tempature inside the house.

Yeah, as long as you don't have nicely sealed windows and doors, the building material makes little difference.  That said - I'm sure most Zalanthans have figured out that rocks heat up, perhaps rocks are used as heaters, put the rock outside all morning, bring it in during the evening and set them round the house to heat the place up.

Mud houses may not be practible in Zalanthas, but I don't think wood houses would be either. Do to the cost of would, the low technology level. Then take into account lack of metal and everything. It could be done but probably wouldn't be great. Without higher level of technology, and that wood is probably as scarse as water in the south... The south has water mages that can conjure water, but noone to conjure wood. In the north there is more wood and more water, but they also don't use magickers which would be more efficient.

Well wood doesn't require metal - you can assemble an entire house without wood, like a log cabin (wasteful) or use wood pegs and holes. When you consider there are wrenches and awls and other moving-piece tools, building a drill should be easy.  You can also split up logs into planks.  And though wood doesn't grow in the south, it grows in relative abundance in the North.  For example, the Kadian logging camp - a wealthy Merchant house in the South with a logging camp in the North.  One Argosy trip would be enough to bring down a large amount of wood, and aren't Argosies themselves built of wood? And there's a lot of wood in Nak - I'm surprised the Chair Liberation Front (The CLF to members) hasn't raided Nak, or have they?

While wood is expensive in Nak, it doesn't require consorting with a magicker, which is something most Nakkis don't do, nor could afford to do.  A family building a home can't afford to give a minimum of 300 sid/month to a Vivadu.

But as for stone, there's stone clerics, and we get this cryptic statement from the Stone cleric document: "They can eventually wield considerable power over all things which are composed of matter, even as far as altering an object's composition from one material to another."