Materials.

[Cenghiz]

An idea for the farmlands... There are strange types of plants in Earth, sucking nitrogen from the air. So some plants may suck the humidity of the air. Evaluation, that's the trick which may be used to explain everything weird. Or maybe they have microskopic unseen roots reaching some underground water supply. But still, all lawful characters I played peed in farmlands, onto a plant. Let it be a habit, so poor 'nakkians may have more flour to make some semi-satisfying travel cakes. Think of the pees of thousands of people. Even this may be enough for farms. And our great nobles would have more mud to build, and we would be stronger against Tuluk with more wonderous buildings. I'll add 'Let's pee on plants.' to my sign.... Or I won't.

Cenghiz, who's confused about the things he's saying.

[creeper386]

That may be beneficial on "cool" nights, which to me sounds like they would be "bloody cold" to the average Zalanthan who would be acclimatized to the weather. So on cool days it may be beneficial, and on hot days a nightmare. Wood, on the other hand, would be cool in the day, and cool at night, same with stone.

Well. I'm thinking every night would be cool. Most the time deserts don't have the cloud coverage to keep heat in. The sun goes down. Things cool DRASTICally. Normally the bricks heat up during the day. They absorb alot of the heat, and at night they keep things warm and cool back down. And the inside of the house is left with an opposite system, staying cool in the day because the brick absorbs the heat and staying warmer at night. It DOES let heat and cold in and out, but not quickly, and thats why the buildings walls are built thicker then a wood house and such. Normally the hotter it is, more drastic the change between heat day/night the thicker the walls to slow down the exchange.

And it says adobe houses are poor at insulating do to being very dense... And you think stone is a better insulator then adobe? It really does the same thing. The stone heats up when it's hot, and cools down when it's cool. This does help things when inside the house it's cool, so the inside part of the wall is cool, the outside is hot. As long as the wall is thick enough that the heat takes time to move through the wall, it works out.

Creeper

[creeper386]

http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/yourhome/technical/fs17.htm

Thats just one of the things. I beleive all of those sites also talk about the thermal mass. Mud brick, stone and such takes a fairly long time to absorb things. Thats why castles even during hot days, well be cold inside. It takes time for the heat to reach the inside of the walls.

These types of building materials WOULD be good for Zalanthas and any real world place where the tempeture doesn't chance alot, so the building can be designed for one season and be perfectly fine. It more moderate areas it's harder to design the houses, because there are different seasons and such.

Creeper

[gfair]

Thats just one of the things. I beleive all of those sites also talk about the thermal mass. Mud brick, stone and such takes a fairly long time to absorb things. Thats why castles even during hot days, well be cold inside. It takes time for the heat to reach the inside of the walls.

And this is the idea - you don't want to use mud brick because in the daytime it heats up and there is no relief from the sun inside or out because the bricks are radiating all that heat.  The only time it's good is on cool days and nights, when these heated bricks continue to heat the house.

These types of building materials WOULD be good for Zalanthas and any real world place where the tempeture doesn't chance alot, so the building can be designed for one season and be perfectly fine. It more moderate areas it's harder to design the houses, because there are different seasons and such.

How well does mud compare to stone and wood, though?  Sure, you can build with mud - all you need is a heck of a lot of water, and you end up with a building that won't provide relief from heat during the day, and most days in Zalanthas are spent hot.  So now you're wasting a lot of water AND you end up with a house hotter than if you'd used wood and not spent tons of money on water.

Why not use sand and sap instead?  Sap isn't water, so it doesn't fit at the top of the hierarchy of needs in a desert environment.  Or wood - in the North, wood is everywhere.  In the south, you have stone from obsidian mines, the shield wall, and potential other sources.  Stone takes a great long time to shape, unless it's sandstone which takes a lot less.  Or the other softer rocks like jasper, perhaps.

Bottom line - I would think the requirement of water would kill mud housing.  Then there's the fact that mud bricks or walls crack extremely easily, which is compounded by greater temperature differentials, and Zalanthan days can see great temperature differences between noon and night.  Then the fact that there are many easier building materials that don't use the precious water.

Then again - there can't be too much realism in Arm, or else you end up with the text version of The Sims from a first-person perspective.

[Meep]

Perhaps certain farmed animals secrete a viscous, glue-like substance that are used as bonding with sand/dirt to create some sort of claylike/cement-like substance.. like termites do with wood and dung? Why not? Give a good use for kank drool.

[God]

Then again - there can't be too much realism in Arm, or else you end up with the text version of The Sims from a first-person perspective.

True, but the issue of food and where it comes from is an important one, I believe. I'd hazard to guess that the supplies issue would be very important during battles - an army of gith could probably besiege Allanak by destroying all the farms and then Allanak would starve. Or they could just burn them.

[Angela Christine]

Then again - there can't be too much realism in Arm, or else you end up with the text version of The Sims from a first-person perspective.

True, but the issue of food and where it comes from is an important one, I believe. I'd hazard to guess that the supplies issue would be very important during battles - an army of gith could probably besiege Allanak by destroying all the farms and then Allanak would starve. Or they could just burn them.

That happened, about 2 real life years ago.  Not a seige, but the gith attacked the farms en masse, killed many farm workers, and burned the crops.  The famine lasted for years, with bodies stacked up all over the city.  

AC

[Angela Christine]

First, dirt, which one can use to make mud, is available everywhere.

This seems a bit of a strange assumption - Allanak is surrounded by sand, not dirt, and sand can't be made into anything.  If dirt was available commonly in the south, that would definitely be represented.  Mud would be very scarce in the South, perhaps akin to water in its scarcity almost.  Perhaps you meant Tuluk?  I see sap used in building materials in the North, an interesting alternative to water for compound materials.

Look closer.  To the north is sand, to the south is dust and silt.  Dust basically is dirt.  Not good loam that you would use for crops, but often blowing dust turns into a heavy clay soil when you add water.

Sap might be useful for for temporary constructions like tents and shanties, but I doubt it would work well for buildings expected to stand for decades.  Sap is sticky because of the sugar, the mosture in the sap will slowly evaporate eventually leaving dry crunchy sugar that won't be able to hold anything together.  That can't be good.  Most primitive glues aren't able to hold up to high stress for a long time, you'd need to reenforce it with something.

Wood, stone and mud brick will all be very expensive building materials, which is probably why most sturdy, permanent buildings are built by rich houses rather than commoners.  A house or tennement may cost a small fortune to build, but if you plan on your house (family) using it or renting it out for the next 200 years, then the cost doesn't seem so bad.   Even when you add maintenance costs, the per year expense will be quite modest.

Angela Christine

[creeper386]

Theres one thing you aren't thinking. Most things... Heat up MUCH slower then they cool down. The sun heating up the outside IS going to heat up the mud brick, BUT the shade inside is going to help cool things off. It'll take plenty of time to heat up the WHOLE thing. Specially if the walls are thick. Like more then a foot at least. Just like with stone. You have to have thick walls not just for structural things.

TEST FOR YOU TO DO

Build a mud wall that runs north/south. Sit around when the sun is coming. Feel one side the feel the other. EVEN without it being completely enclosed the western side well be cooler then the eastern side. Then wait around later on. The eastern side well most likely be cooler then the western side.

Can even try it with clay or anything. Clays even better. Build a small pot. Set it upside down outside in the sun. Go feel it. The outside well probably be warm, the inside well be cool. Yeap.

I've worked with alot of clay and built little mud hide aways and stuff as a kid. The only problem isn't the inside cooler, it's condensation tends to build up. And you say stone is great? WTF do you think stone is? It works the same it basically is the same. And granite or something would conduct heat and cold quicker then sandstone or mudbrick or anything. Stone is more dense, it well be easier because theres less space. There is NO air ussually in stone. And if you read your webpages, the lack of air within adobe and mudbrick is WHY it's a poor insulator, but stone, just like other earth building materials are used have other benefits.

Creeper

[gfair]

Theres one thing you aren't thinking. Most things... Heat up MUCH slower then they cool down. The sun heating up the outside IS going to heat up the mud brick, BUT the shade inside is going to help cool things off. It'll take plenty of time to heat up the WHOLE thing. Specially if the walls are thick. Like more then a foot at least. Just like with stone. You have to have thick walls not just for structural things.

Oh, I realise that things heat up much slower, but what's the variable?  Heat.  Higher heat means faster heat absorption, and Nak is hot on almost every day.

Foot thick mud walls?  Well, I know it's possible to use sand as fill to reduce dependence on mud, but not that much.  Straw is another option as well.  But foot-thick walls is crazy in Zalanthas - sure, with enough distance between the hot sun and the inner chamber, everything becomes a good insulator, but there must be realistic limits, particularly in a resource-starved area like Nak.  Substituted with enough straw and sand, I could see mud walls working, but I still don't buy the economics involved with water and soil and this requirement of a foot-thick wall on all sides.

TEST FOR YOU TO DO

Build a mud wall that runs north/south. Sit around when the sun is coming. Feel one side the feel the other. EVEN without it being completely enclosed the western side well be cooler then the eastern side. Then wait around later on. The eastern side well most likely be cooler then the western side.

Sorry, I have neither the time, nor inclination to go out and build a brick wall - that's an acceptable example of cooling.  I use the knowledge of experts to support my arguments, that works much better. So sure, I think it's obvious the one side would be cooler sure - if you make a wall of any kind of material, the thicker you go, the cooler the shade side will be, but that's the extreme, we need realistic limits.

And you say stone is great? WTF do you think stone is? It works the same it basically is the same.

Well.. naturally, since there are two different characteristics here, everything works on the same guiding principles, but stone is a much nicer material than mud for your argument - lower R-value, higher thermal mass, so on those cool nights it keeps everything nice and toasty.  Further, it's available easily without consuming a resource used in food production, and it doesn't require a Vivaduan to conjure up.  Further, stone clerics could be used to create the stone buildings.  Already have, if memory serves, in at least one city in Arm. Stone doesn't require water or topsoil (two resources far more precious) and can be done simply if you don't want it looking like a pyramid for smoothness, and you could even use mud or sand & sap as your moartar for the building.  Stone should cost less monetarily if done simply, and you could rather make use of mud for mortar, or some other sap & material combination.

But ultimately, for good insulation, or at least relief from the heat, you want something incorporating wood.  Ultimately, I don't think we're going to come to a resolution without actually being able to do an actual experiment, so perhaps just agree to disagree, no?

[creeper386]

All I'm saying is mud and adobe works ALOT better then you would think. And a foot thick wall isn't really that much when concerning low technology civilizations. And considering things are low technology the walls even with wooden buildings and such are going to be fairly thick themselves. At least when concerning more permanent or nice buildings. Not something thrown together like a cheap tenement or something.

I do beleive for the most part completely wooden buildings is a fairly new thing. Untill people got alittle more wise and came to realize ways to figure out how to fix things, wooden building were more drafty, colder over all because they didn't have fancy insulation like there is currently, it was alot more expensive to build a wooden house for the most part, because you'd have to look at getting more help. It was more complicated then a mud or stone building. Specially when concerning insulation and other things.

I'm not saying that a mud or adobe house would be worthwhile on Arm. Just that it works better, and those type of houses, as well as stone most likely would be MUCH more common because they are less complicated to make and more efficient then a simple wood house. I know as a kid I've had forts made out of wood, and I've had forts made out of mud and other earth. The mud ones breath more, the wood ones either get stuffy or you have wind blowing through them, and the wood ones were always hotter while the mud ones were always cool inside.


Creeper

[Angela Christine]

I do beleive for the most part completely wooden buildings is a fairly new thing. Untill people got alittle more wise and came to realize ways to figure out how to fix things, wooden building were more drafty, colder over all because they didn't have fancy insulation like there is currently, it was alot more expensive to build a wooden house for the most part, because you'd have to look at getting more help. It was more complicated then a mud or stone building. Specially when concerning insulation and other things.

Drafty might not be so bad in a hot climate, although it would let too much dust and sand inside.  I think the main problem with wood is the difficulty with nails.  Metal nails are out, obviously.  Bone nails have to be painstakingly hand crafted.  Wooden pegs work, but then you have to drill precision holes for the pegs to fit into.  Dovetailing works (perhaps even better than nails) but is time consuming and requires a mastercraftsman to construct a dresser with no nails, an entire house built this way would take forever.  People have built log houses without nails, but they did have to use a mortar compound, and besides building a house out of logs would cost a fortune in Zalanthas.

AC

[creeper386]

Drafty if it was cold air would be nice. But when it's extremely hot air blowing in sand and dust... It probably wouldn't help the tempature inside the house.

Mud houses may not be practible in Zalanthas, but I don't think wood houses would be either. Do to the cost of would, the low technology level. Then take into account lack of metal and everything. It could be done but probably wouldn't be great. Without higher level of technology, and that wood is probably as scarse as water in the south... The south has water mages that can conjure water, but noone to conjure wood. In the north there is more wood and more water, but they also don't use magickers which would be more efficient.

Creeper who is confusing.

[gfair]

Drafty if it was cold air would be nice. But when it's extremely hot air blowing in sand and dust... It probably wouldn't help the tempature inside the house.

Yeah, as long as you don't have nicely sealed windows and doors, the building material makes little difference.  That said - I'm sure most Zalanthans have figured out that rocks heat up, perhaps rocks are used as heaters, put the rock outside all morning, bring it in during the evening and set them round the house to heat the place up.

Mud houses may not be practible in Zalanthas, but I don't think wood houses would be either. Do to the cost of would, the low technology level. Then take into account lack of metal and everything. It could be done but probably wouldn't be great. Without higher level of technology, and that wood is probably as scarse as water in the south... The south has water mages that can conjure water, but noone to conjure wood. In the north there is more wood and more water, but they also don't use magickers which would be more efficient.

Well wood doesn't require metal - you can assemble an entire house without wood, like a log cabin (wasteful) or use wood pegs and holes. When you consider there are wrenches and awls and other moving-piece tools, building a drill should be easy.  You can also split up logs into planks.  And though wood doesn't grow in the south, it grows in relative abundance in the North.  For example, the Kadian logging camp - a wealthy Merchant house in the South with a logging camp in the North.  One Argosy trip would be enough to bring down a large amount of wood, and aren't Argosies themselves built of wood? And there's a lot of wood in Nak - I'm surprised the Chair Liberation Front (The CLF to members) hasn't raided Nak, or have they?

While wood is expensive in Nak, it doesn't require consorting with a magicker, which is something most Nakkis don't do, nor could afford to do.  A family building a home can't afford to give a minimum of 300 sid/month to a Vivadu.

But as for stone, there's stone clerics, and we get this cryptic statement from the Stone cleric document: "They can eventually wield considerable power over all things which are composed of matter, even as far as altering an object's composition from one material to another."