Survey

[Yokunama]

How does this sound?

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Mekillot Island [NESW]
   Mekillots all day and everyday.

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survey ne
You survey the distance in the northeastern direction.
[Very far]
Nothing.
[Far]
A gang of mekillots waiting to eat you.
[Near]
Another gang of mekillots waiting to eat you.


I mean.... People should be able to notice things like mekillots, wagons, and other huge things in the distance before they climb on top of you. Right?

[Xio]

I always thought it kind of weird we couldn't at least look northeast,northwest,southeast,southwest. Though a think a survey command for noticing large things in the distance would be nice. Cities, large beasts, wagons, etc.

[Tisiphone]

Perhaps we could tweak this idea. Survey is, first, only for noticing -large- objects - meks, cities, bahamet - and has a rather long delay timer. However, this delay is to simulate you peering around in all directions, rose points and between them.

[Ktavialt]

I dig.  It could probably be very easily done if you had code that basically says if the room at 1 east, 1 north, matches the room at 1 north, 1 east, then show contents, etc. with 2 east 2 north matching 2 n 2 e.  This tends to say that if its an open area, looking in a diagonal direction should be doable.

On a related note, this might make the wilderness too easy in the sense that, for smaller, still dangerous creatures, this I believe was the staff's way of simulating that the animal hid from your sight.  However, that itself can be easily fixed with alterations to the hide code.

Some time ago I proposed this idea where everyone can hide to a certain small degree, and scan to a certain degree.  Also, everyone can hide very well if they decide just to hide their sight from a particular direction, with the exception of absolutely flat terrain like salt flats.  Animals that are hunters (or efficient prey) should use the directional or low level hide code more often.

[mansa]

The immortals have brought up this.

What about directions that are North North East ?

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You have to consider all these directions if you want to implement a diagonal system.  Don't you?


Or should it only be this:

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What happens if there is a MEKILLOT here:  (denoted by 8)

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Personally, I could see a command that just allows this and nothing further.

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[Xio]

I thought the command would be something like this:

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For those wagons and large animals. If I'm not mistaken as you get closer to a city the desc of a room lets you know it is in such and such direction so they wouldn't have to be added to the survey command. Not sure how Arm2 is going to handle cities/towns etc, so it might be necessary/useful to if this command were even implemented.

[Ktavialt]

lotsa stuff and graphics

Any of those would work.  Even if it was just a 1 room range.  Something is better than nothing.

[Coat of Arms]

I don't see why it shouldn't function the exact same way 'look <direction>' currently does.

[Cale_Knight]

The main problem is getting jumped by something that you should have been able to see. Only being able to look diagonal for one room would solve that problem.

Seeing further would be neat, but not necessary.

[Aruven]

As long as it doesn't turn into this...

exits -U,D,N,S,E,W,NE,SE,NW,SW

That's just annoying in other MUDs.

[Dalmeth]

The main problem is getting jumped by something that you should have been able to see. Only being able to look diagonal for one room would solve that problem.

Not really.  So long as we're able to look diagonally, things should be able to move diagonally, and you still have the same problem.  It just doesn't make sense otherwise.

Other thoughts on a survey command were expressed here.

[Salt Merchant]

Another problem is that NPCs only have a visual range of "one room". Do they all have poor eyesight, or is it something like "Glorg, look there! Fresh meat! Huh? Nah. We'd have to move two rooms!"

Also, why always three rooms visibility on a clear day? If you wear camouflage clothing (specific to the desert for example), shouldn't it cut the distance you can be seen at? Or perhaps bright colors that clash with the surroundings would extend it.

[Dalmeth]

Another problem is that NPCs only have a visual range of "one room". Do they all have poor eyesight, or is it something like "Glorg, look there! Fresh meat! Huh? Nah. We'd have to move two rooms!"

For predators, the one room aggro range makes sense.  Creatures looking for a meal don't chase potential prey down for miles like some creatures in Arm do.  They give a brief chase, and if they can't bring their prey down almost immediately, they back off to avoid injury.  Now stalking predators would be a nice addition to Arm, but for now, things are good.

[Xio]

For predators, the one room aggro range makes sense. Creatures looking for a meal don't chase potential prey down for miles like some creatures in Arm do. They give a brief chase, and if they can't bring their prey down almost immediately, they back off to avoid injury.

My thoughts exactly. A Mek is gonna chase you around all over the place when it can just find a worm. Same thing with a Met. If it sees you standing like three cords away, its gonna try to eat you, three leagues? No. A duskhorn would make a much more fitting meal for that effort

Now stalking predators would be a nice addition to Arm, but for now, things are good.

One word: Raptors. I had one of those chase a char for like three IC days. Fecker wouldn't leave me alone.

[Salt Merchant]

Another problem is that NPCs only have a visual range of "one room". Do they all have poor eyesight, or is it something like "Glorg, look there! Fresh meat! Huh? Nah. We'd have to move two rooms!"

For predators, the one room aggro range makes sense.  Creatures looking for a meal don't chase potential prey down for miles like some creatures in Arm do.  They give a brief chase, and if they can't bring their prey down almost immediately, they back off to avoid injury.  Now stalking predators would be a nice addition to Arm, but for now, things are good.

Maybe true for beasts, but gith for example have some intelligence and the current system doesn't credit them for it. It works both ways too... you can be in a party of ten and that lone gith in the next room will mindlessly charge in anyway. I could see two gith spotting a lone traveller without a kank (especially a wounded one) and trotting off to hunt him or her down.

[Yokunama]

Now stalking predators would be a nice addition to Arm, but for now, things are good.

One word: Raptors. I had one of those chase a char for like three IC days. Fecker wouldn't leave me alone.

Theres a lot of stalking predators out there. :wink:

[Xio]

[derail] Imagine a halfling riding a raptor [/derail]

And remember, the point of (this) survey command is to see not only the big 'bite your head off with my toes' beasts, but for wagons as well.

If you are a raider, wouldn't it be nice to catch a glimpse of that big ol' wagon from a distance? Get ready, then hope they don't spot you as you sneak up?

[Dalmeth]

Theres a lot of stalking predators out there. :wink:

Raptors don't stalk.  They chase down at full speed past the point of endurance.  It's ridiculous.

[Xio]

Raptors don't stalk.  They chase down at full speed past the point of endurance.  It's ridiculous.

What do you think stalkers do? Haven't you ever seen that weird guy chase you for blocks when you were in a car doing fifty?

Reword: If I offended a stalker, I apologize.

[Angela Christine]

Since you can't move diagonally, treat the 4 closest diagonal spaces as being 2 steps away.  If you can't see rooms 2 spaces away, then you can't see the diagonals.

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That would keep things fairly simple while allowing more useful sight lines.

[Tisiphone]

I like that idea, AC. At the same time, we could then code certain aggro animals (like say, mekillots) that would chase you from two rooms away. Or even three. Depending on how angry they were.

[Salt Merchant]

Wouldn't such a survey command take all the risk out of traveling though?

[Tisiphone]

Not really, because with my idea of rewriting the aggro code, if you can see them, they can see you.

[Xio]

There are still dangerous mobs you wouldn't notice with the survey command.

[Angela Christine]

There are still dangerous mobs you wouldn't notice with the survey command.

Like small, venomous, aggressive snakes.  Man, I hated those guys sooooo much.  You shouldn't see them from miles away, because they are tiny, but they will still mess you up.

[Xio]

A raptor, imo, isn't a large beast you would catch with the survey command.

[Coat of Arms]

I honestly don't see why this should work any different from a regular 'look east'. There's no IC/logical explanation why Zalanthans can't see anywhere other than the four cardinal directions, it's not like looking south-west is any different from looking south or west. As long as there are no obstacles in the way, looking in a diagonal direction should be possible and just as easy as looking in any other direction. To place coded limitations, command delays, short-sightedness and other hindrances on this command would be an entirely OOC penalty.

[Xio]

Well as said per another thread, the main reason we can only look/move/shoot/etc. in the cardinal directions because the task of added the other directions to every room ig that needs them is a -large- undertaking. I think by Arm2 we'll have those other directions. I could be sorely mistaken.

[Tisiphone]

I honestly don't see why this should work any different from a regular 'look east'. There's no IC/logical explanation why Zalanthans can't see anywhere other than the four cardinal directions, it's not like looking south-west is any different from looking south or west. As long as there are no obstacles in the way, looking in a diagonal direction should be possible and just as easy as looking in any other direction. To place coded limitations, command delays, short-sightedness and other hindrances on this command would be an entirely OOC penalty.

Because to code a truly full field of vision on a MUD base is a pain in the ass, and it usually looks sloppy.

[Salt Merchant]

I honestly don't see why this should work any different from a regular 'look east'. There's no IC/logical explanation why Zalanthans can't see anywhere other than the four cardinal directions, it's not like looking south-west is any different from looking south or west. As long as there are no obstacles in the way, looking in a diagonal direction should be possible and just as easy as looking in any other direction. To place coded limitations, command delays, short-sightedness and other hindrances on this command would be an entirely OOC penalty.

Because to code a truly full field of vision on a MUD base is a pain in the ass, and it usually looks sloppy.

DartMUD actually implements a hexagonal system rather than square system for outdoor movement. It has its advantages (and disadvantages).

[Coat of Arms]

If you want a command that allows for diagonal vision, won't it be necessary to code that function? I don't want to be able to move north-east and south-west and so on, but if there's going to be a command that allows you to see in a non-cardinal direction, I don't want it to be subjected to unrealistic penalties. It should function exactly the same way 'look' currently does.

[Xio]

I thought the purpose of this command was just to detect large entites(beasts wagons and otherwise), obviously in the diagonal direction, but I figured out of the 'normal' range of view, provided the weather would allow. Being able to spot a town that is four rooms off the the east when you've been riding straight south for a long time and have lost your bearings would be really helpful I think.

[Yokunama]

Theres a lot of stalking predators out there. :wink:

Raptors don't stalk.  They chase down at full speed past the point of endurance.  It's ridiculous.

I wasn't talking about raptors in general - Just mentioning that there are stalking predators out there. Raptors can be considered stalkers according to definition. They are not your stealthy type of stalker.

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

What if 'look' became more of a broader line of sight rather than completely linear, where appropriate? I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere before.

When the 'look' command is used, the mud checks to see how 'open' the direction is. This could be done by testing exits (if you can walk west, then north, as well as north, then west, without being blocked, the mud considers the northwestern room open to your characters sight). Other things could be factored in.

Once the mud determines the area is open, 'look east' would yield something like this:

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To the east, stony barrens stretch out into the distance.
[Near]
North: a nasty gith crouches here, waiting.
South: a nasty gith crouches here, waiting.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Very far]
South: a giant mekillot crouches here, waiting.


representing a line of sight like this:

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...and I dig the idea of a survey command giving an all-around heads up.

[Ktavialt]

Let's just take this further, and figure that, what if they did implement that; would that mean you would have to be able to shoot arrows diagonally too?

[Xio]

Once someone mentions looking diagonally, people talk about shooting diagonally. In Arm2 it'll probably be possible, for Arm1 don't even bother asking.

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

I'm hoping that in the new incarnation we'll reconsider ranged combat so that it isn't restricted to things in the cardinal directions. As it is, I think archery can be a real pain because of the OOC issue of trying to line targets up before they run out of your "line" of sight. It is nearly impossible for an archer in the desert to keep fire on something that is moving around him, which is silly. I'd like to see something like a "target" command. Used in combination with survey, or any option used to reveal things in diagonal rooms, "target" would allow your character to fire on a target so long as there is an open "path" for the weapon, and so long as they are in range.

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survey
Northeast: a nasty gith crouches here.

target gith northeast
You concentrate on the nasty gith as your target.

shoot target
You steady yourself and take aim.

You fire a sweet arrow at a nasty gith to the northeast, hitting it in the leg.


Now, the gith can run wherever it wants, and so long as it is in range, our hero can keep shooting at it. Once the gith moves out of range or moves somewhere where there isn't line of sight, it can no longer be shot at. Even if the gith is within range, but invisible to normal "looks", it is game for an arrow.

If you find yourself under fire, a quick survey will reveal the shooter, and you can close the gap.