Dead Horse? Think again, sillies.

[Gimfalisette]

I currently know, or know of, ICly, approximately 40 non-mundane PCs in game.

Unless a staff-member can confirm this I don't believe it for a second. That would mean well over half of the people playing the game are playing non-mundanes, and honestly...the notion is pretty absurd.

There are 200+ players logging in every week, so 40 characters doesn't constitute half of the playerbase. Yeah, it's at least a good solid 20%, though.

You can choose to believe it or not, but I keep extensive character files, and I have the data.

[Malken]

You can't compare d-elves with magickers, d-elves are ISO clans with a minimum of players there at a time, if you kill one or two active players, the rest of them usually start getting really bored and either retire or stop logging on, until some major character pops in again and start luring them back in.

Magickers, you always have many of them, be they hidden ones or gemmed ones, they can always find someone to interact with, the hidden ones usually (At least I hope they do) interact with you in public taverns, you just don't know they are magickers (Or, at least, if you try a little hard to stick to your IC ways, you pretend you don't know that they are) .. The gemmed ones, well, as I said, they don't get much flak for being magickers to begin with, they have their own little council and their own little area and if they want, they have their own mundane buddies and lovers to go with it.

Jhunter, you have to agree that, let's say I'm playing a Whiran, first, I'm learning all of the spells, the areas I can hide in, what makes me strong and what makes me weak.. If someone finally kills me, chances are I'll just come back as another Whiran, but this time I'll know which spells to avoid and which spells to focus on, where to go and hide, who to seek out for protection, etc.. Now add to this our average players' experience of 3-7 years and you know what happens..

I don't know if Delirium was being sarcastic or not in her post, but I'm seriously doubting that it is the way it currently is for magickers how she's described it, even though it SHOULD BE THAT WAY, final.

Then I learned that gemmed ones can just be cool and safe in their little Temple until they decide that they are strong enough and just skip out of town and go cause trouble outside? *groan* This just adds to me being even more jaded than ever..

I'll be the change you want me to be or whatever when the Staff also becomes the change it should be. Put a stop to the flood of special apps, stop accepting special apps while living characters are still in the game, start forcing more players to play mundane roles even if they scream that they'll quit if they don't get to play magickers all the time and then I'll be that change, until then, I'm just swimming against the current and I'm really getting tired of it, I certainly don't have any energy left to be that change... If others can be, then good for them, I hope they'll make it nice and the way it should be for me, but for now, I'm happy to play with the same 2-3 players and not minding the rest of the world until my character dies then I can see more clearly what to do.

And I'd like to thank everyone that has been PMing me offering me mundane roles and ideas, but that is not my point at all, I am currently playing a mundane, do I feel useless? Totally. Do I think I'll change the world and my actions will build the new one? Not at all.

Do I think I'd stand a better chance to change the world and shape it if I were to play my whiran sitting as my accepted special app once my mundane dies? Probably.

[Southie]

Gimfalisette's assertion seems fairly accurate to me.

[Wish]

Gimfalisette's post is right.  I can think of 35 non-mundane pcs offhand that I know icly were alive yesterday.

[Belenos]

Meh.  As I have watched you folks play, I've come to one conclusion.   People go to where the PC leaders are.    Players want to be involved and have stuff happen to their character.  Leaders make that happen.  If we have  the best leaders playing mundane roles, we see more mundanes.  If those leaders play delfs, we see more delfs.  And so forth.   If you want more mundanes, play a mundane and give others a -reason- to follow you.

I also hear the comment that 'we aren't powerful enough to take down xyz group'.  This may very well be, on a one-on-one basis.  Truthfully, it's how it should be, but remember there is strength in numbers, even if you have to create strange alliances to get things done.  Everyone dies eventually. Even the most powerful will see the mantis head in time.

[Malken]

Players want to be involved and have stuff happen to their character.  Leaders make that happen.  If we have  the best leaders playing mundane roles, we see more mundanes.  If those leaders play delfs, we see more delfs.  And so forth.   If you want more mundanes, play a mundane and give others a -reason- to follow you.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you, Belenos.. What we are saying is that it doesn't matter how much we do this, that's only half of the battle.. The other half is making sure that, you, the Imms, keep making sure that the number of non-mundane PCs allowed in is as balanced as it should be, as per the docs, and fairly distributed in the world.

If I try hard to keep the magickers in check and making sure to give them hell and reduce their numbers yet the other side is constantly allowing them in, can't you see why at some point we just throw up our arms in the air and just say screw it and give up?

I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..

[Dan]

I remember on the old boards where you would see this all the time...


DEAL.


I think that this is the right approach.

[Doppelganger]

Uhm, I think that Belenos had your questions answered, Malken.

Everything is fine, it's just you. You fail to create suitable background for magickers to play on.

[Only He Stands There]

DEAL.

QFT, man, QFT. I was looking for a way to express how I felt, and I guess I don't have to be so eloquent about it. <3

[Tarx]

I also hear the comment that 'we aren't powerful enough to take down xyz group'. This may very well be, on a one-on-one basis. Truthfully, it's how it should be, but remember there is strength in numbers, even if you have to create strange alliances to get things done. Everyone dies eventually. Even the most powerful will see the mantis head in time.

Belenos, I love you...

[flurry]

If you don't like the way people are playing certain karma roles, go out and do it the right way.

The problem is that apparently playing a mage "the right way" involves living like a hermit and never being visible, whether you're gemmed or not.

Here was the life experience of a gemmed that was played "the right way":

My experience as a gemmed went something like this:
<snip>

Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way.  I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that you think it should be done.

You may think that playing a magicker correctly means being a hermit and never being visible.  Great!  You may or may not find that enjoyable, but if you think that's the right way to do it, so be it.  I may have a completely different idea.  As long as we're both conforming to the documentation, there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not sure what the point of including the anecdote is, though.  Delirium may not have enjoyed playing a gemmed magicker and I'm sure she's not the only one.  Other people love it.  Everyone's got their own preferences and perspectives.

[bardbard#4]

For the record, playing a secret magicker doesn't (necessarily) mean being a hermit.

Playing a secret magicker means only casting and having spellups on when no one is around to see you.  I think it's a great challenge to play a magicker who is out in the public and has a certain persona, while hiding their magick secret in the closet, so to speak.

[Tisiphone]

I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..

This has already been said, on several threads that are now locked, after spiraling out of control. If you'd like, I can try to dig one up. However, this was also in the OP's gripe.

[Cale_Knight]

Meh.  As I have watched you folks play, I've come to one conclusion.   People go to where the PC leaders are.    Players want to be involved and have stuff happen to their character.  Leaders make that happen.  If we have  the best leaders playing mundane roles, we see more mundanes.  If those leaders play delfs, we see more delfs.  And so forth.   If you want more mundanes, play a mundane and give others a -reason- to follow you.

You know, as one of those mundane PC leaders I'm perfectly willing to accept that I do a shitty job of it, but I will in no way accept that I'm the reason every second or third character these days is a magicker of some kind.

Meh, indeed.

[Medena]

I just want the Staff to honestly tell me, once and for all, that the number of non-mundanes we are seeing currently in game is as it should be, that this is the way you want it to be and that what we see as a huge amount of them is just us mortals not seeing what you guys see, then I promise you and everyone else that I will never fight this battle again and just let it go, but until someone steps in and tells us that the numbers are just fine the way they are, this will just keep going on..

It seems a bit arrogant to think you have some personal entitlement to an accounting and justification for how the mud is being run.  A bit of trust and faith would go a long way on this.  The Staff must surely know what the relative numbers are.  They must know what the current major plots are.  Therefore it can be safely concluded that either a) they endorse the current numbers or b) they are making appropriate adjustments.

The only problem I see currently is that there a number of players who are unhappy with the game and it saddens me that several people who have no doubt contributed a lot to the game over the years are turning away from it.  Those who feel so disenchanted seem to be people who have played for a very long time and have a firm mindset about how the game should be and/or those who feel frustrated because they want to make their own mark on the world.  I guess I am lucky, with only three total years played, to be a relative newbie and one who has never played a single magicker because, for me, the world, its secrets, its magick is still as exciting as it was when I first started.

There is no way to restore that sense of wonder once it has been lost.  Perhaps though, for those of you who have already seen it all and done it all, the answer might lie in letting go of your notions of how the world ought to be and just jump on for the ride as the world changes.  For it -is- changing.  Go with the flow.  You might just find yourself caught up in the excitement if you don't resist it.

For those of you who want to have your characters change the world, dunno what to say.  I've never been burdened, as a player, with having personal ambitions for my characters.  There have been, however, suggestions made by knowledgeable people for ways to change things.  The first starting point ought to be joining into the world as it is rather than bemoaning its wrongness and then, from inside and as a part of it, effecting your changes.

[Belenos]

You know, as one of those mundane PC leaders I'm perfectly willing to accept that I do a shitty job of it, but I will in no way accept that I'm the reason every second or third character these days is a magicker of some kind.

Meh, indeed.

Don't take what is said as a negative on anyone's play.  It has no bearing on your quality of play.  Generally the leaders that people flock around are those people that seem to live online 24/7.  Not all of us have that choice.
You play a fine leader. You can't help is another leader type is attracting a large group of players because they have tons of time to devote to play and you don't.

One point to add to this is that the dynamics are complicated.  Often these discussions are quite black and white and full of a lot of misleading 'facts'.  My point is that the dynamics of whatever trend is popular at any given time follows where the hotbeds of activities are at any given time.  What is  hot and popular today can be dead as a doornail tomorrow.

[Malken]

I don't see where I'm being arrogant, Medena, unless you think that politely asking the Staff about what is going on with something I see as a growing problem is arrogance, then I guess I am being arrogant.. I'm not being rude or snarky about it, though, so I'm hoping for just as polite a reply, no DEAL or that sort of answer. (How about I just go in your Biography Request thread and tell you to just DEAL with it, Only He Stands Here?)

And I'm not asking for speculations from players either.. You know just as much as I do if the answer is either "a) they endorse the current numbers or b) they are making appropriate adjustments." like you've said so yourself.. All I want to know is if the answer is A or B! That's all.

I have trust in the Staff members, but faith about what? Do I have faith that they are going with the way things were like when I first started playing the game? I guess I don't since I'm questioning it all, and I have a feeling that I am not alone doing this.. Do I have faith that they can pull it back in the right direction if it is indeed a problem? Of course I do, else I would have been gone long ago.

I'd be glad if someone could refer me to the threads where the Staff actually said that they were happy with the current numbers, I can't seem to find them myself..

[Belenos]

I'd be glad if someone could refer me to the threads where the Staff actually said that they were happy with the current numbers, I can't seem to find them myself..

I'm going to be honest, you probably will never get the full answer you are looking for.  Mostly because it is not really appropriate for the staff to openly state opinions of this nature.  I can tell you that we do take into account what the given status of the world is when it comes to running plots, approving special applications, or adjusting various things like skills, availability of certain goods, etc.  In fact a question along this line came up on the immcom just two minutes ago.   Like I stated above, there is no black and white here, nor any easy answers, just layers and layers of grey.  There is a constant dialog going on with the staff as to how things are structured.  There always will be.

[Janna]

So basically, lets boil it down to a simple, one line-answer.  

Trust the staff.

[Forest Junkie]

There is a constant dialog going on with the staff as to how things are structured.  There always will be.

You know, I had hoped for a definitive statement/comment from staff, but this statement here does make me feel somewhat better about the situation. I'm just glad to know that you are always conferring with one another about the current status of a dynamic world. Thanks for that, at least.

[Salt Merchant]

Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way.  I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that you think it should be done.

"Wrong" seems to equate to "visible" and "present" to a lot of people posting about the gemmed, so only "invisible" and "absent" are left.

[Forest Junkie]

Just to clarify, when I said "do it the right way", I didn't mean to imply there is just one right way.  I just meant that if you think some people are playing something "wrong", then go out and do it the way that you think it should be done.

"Wrong" seems to equate to "visible" and "present" to a lot of people posting about the gemmed, so only "invisible" and "absent" are left.

I doubt flurry meant "visible" and "present". I'm sure they rather meant "brash" and "trigger-happy". Or rather, that's how I view some of the current special application pc's in the game.

[Bogre]

Lemme start out by saying that, like Cale Knight, I've never played a non-mundane and I doubt I will before the game ends. I'm also going to second everything he and Gimf said and agree with it totally. I don't keep character files like she does, and the figure nevertheless seems pretty correct.

Someone said something about feeling powerless. -I- feel powerless OOCly sometimes nowadays, more than I've ever felt before with the same character, despite any IC power/standing, just because I won't be able to ever cast a spell or protect myself against really any mage who decides he wants to ace my char with a lightning strike or something.

I don't even know if its the gemmed/rogue mages/sorcs/psions/nilazisetc that bothers me so much. It's the number of them combined that all seem to be buddy buddy with each other. This is ZALANTHAS, people. I want to see more strife in between the mages. Especially between some certain types of mages, defilers/preservers, and psions. I believe all those classes have antithesis's that I've seen them work together with in game.

And it seems that the non-mundanes aren't just non-mundanes. It's that they're super non-mundanes. And one rogue or evil super non-mundane can kill off a lot of lower non-mundanes. I've seen it happen, and this seems to compound the problem, because now -everyone- wants to be super powerful just to be able to contend with each other.

[Vanth]

A few notes here:

1) Please watch your behavior on this board.  Some of you are coming perilously close to attacking the poster rather than disagreeing with their opinion.
2) Please be a little less forthcoming about current IC info.
3) I can tell you that high-karma special apps are getting rejected at a tremendous rate so that we can preserve the ratio of mundane to non-mundanes.

[Forest Junkie]

A derail of my own thread, but I just wanted to make a side-comment:

I keep extensive character files, and I have the data.

This makes me go lol inside.

I didn't know people actually did this.