Karmageddon

[ale six]

I guess don't read this post if you will take anything I say as an authoritive conception about the game world or if your enjoyment will be damaged.

Loves:
The high level of roleplaying standard
The depth of character interactions, game secrets, and storylines
The brutal struggle and desert setting
Constructive criticism and reasonable discourse that doesn't devolve into IC-info sharing

Hates:
Gossiping and bitching about what's going on in the game OOCly with the "it doesn't matter, the game's closing" justification, which only spreads dissent and misconceptions and damages people's enjoyment of the game.
Moaning about 'Karmageddon', see above
Moaning about whatever the current fad is to hate, see above

I'm not sure if you were singling me out or speaking in general, but either way I'll back up what I said a bit. You went after my new favorite word.

It isn't gossiping or bitching to coin a phrase that explains your criticism of the game in its current form. It's really just how I feel. I would love to see a constructive discourse on the end-game scenario and its effects on things like the distribution and percentage of karma-guilded PCs. In my own opinion that has been a net negative. Plots are becoming more dynamic and interesting, but I feel like the main actors in those plots are no longer the dusty, hardass soldiers and shady assassins, they end up being others with something more.

Everybody has a secret, we all love for our PCs to have secrets. How sad is it when secrets which once would have been much larger (like that your aide is not really just an aide but is an ungemmed mage) become so common as to become nearly expected.

A discussion about this can be had without sharing IC info, but I don't think it is giving away IC info to say that there is more karma-action in the game than I would like. Maybe I am more jaded and cynical now than in the past, but I feel since the announcement, the balance has shifted. I don't like that shift.

My "moan" about Karmageddon can be summed up as this: if every guild option besides the six basic guilds were closed completely until the end, I would not mind at all. If on the other hand we went to the other end of the scale and forced everyone to play mages, benders, and sorcerers, I would have much less fun and probably quit. Even 50-50 would be too much. Whatever the current ratio is, I think it's too much. I wish we'd cut back some.

Karma guilds, and N/PCs with karma skills, should be the icing on our cupcake. A cupcake that's nothing but icing is just icky.

(edited to fix a sentence about cupcakes)

[Marauder Moe]

Everybody has a secret, we all love for our PCs to have secrets. How sad is it when secrets which once would have been much larger (like that your aide is not really just an aide but is an ungemmed mage) become so common as to become nearly expected.

This is an interesting point.  I wonder if that could be solved by having more secrets.  

Like, having more human-like halfbreeds that are detectable through IC measures (ie something besides assess -v).  Maybe half-basani are allergic to certain foods, or you could catch one by figuring out if they can see in the dark.  Maybe half-muarkis (if they become a seperate race, as has been hinted) are born with spice addiction.  :wink:

Cults would be another good secret for people to have.  There could be a cult that worships Tektolnes and maybe members are given money, equipment, or very minor magick artifacts or abilities, but most civilized centers outlaw Tek-worship.

There could be a town that outlaws all art and music, and people risk their lives by gathering in secret to sing and paint.

Mutation could be another interesting secret.  Hardly anyone plays the secret mutant with tentacles hidden under their robes.  Maybe, though, there could be coded mutants that have a chance of getting some special (but minor) abilities at character creation.  Enhanced senses, enhanced stats, etc, but must also have a mutation "tattoo" applied to their body somewhere.

Of course, I suppose one problem would be that if these could be consistently checked for, every employment interview might involve said check.  Everyone would be asked to eat a ginka fruit in the dark, turn down a cigarette, and then strip naked.  Hmm.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Everyone would be asked to eat a ginka fruit in the dark, turn down a cigarette, and then strip naked.  Hmm.

Sounds kinky.

As usual, I think that what really needs to be considered is not the existance of a high number of karma classes etc, but a study into why there are so many now.  There didn't used to be so many, so where have they all come from?  Why are they so desirable that suddenly everybody and their brother (seemingly) wants to play a magicker or a psi?
 
Which would be more constructive to fixing the problem than talking about the how of it, if you ask me, because if you go blindly tinkering with things without the background knowledge on the 'why' question, you're probably not going to fix anything.  Something similar to 'Oh my car is making funny noises in the back, let's replace the muffler,' without even bothering to look at it, and then later on your tire falls of because it wasn't actually the muffler in the first place.

[Cenghiz]

It's not the magickers are much more than they were. They simply don't know to hide. In past, when you were a magicker, you were forced to hide your ability to its best, even when you were in the prime of your power. You would adopt a mundane profession and try your best to avoid anyone who can become suspicious.

I believed a whole batch of special applications were accepted, so appeared the magickers wandering around with shiny cantrips and all walking on the north road back and forth and trying to burn/shock/blind/cripple/kiss anyone they come across.

They died indeed.... to be replaced by more magickers, still wandering around helplessly and trying to cause all the trauma they can.

Maybe... just maybe.. the amount of special apps accepted should be lowered just a tad bit.

As another not so humble opinion of mine, magickers should be allowed to form groups and isolate from the playerbase. Now you'll all yell at me: "Idiot! We need more players in cities. Why would anyone want magickers to isolate themselves?!!".. And I'll answer: "Listen first, jerk."

If one wants to play a magicker and has enough karma for that, he will do so. Then he'll have a few alternatives.

A) He plays a gemmer.
Result: Allanaki folks get fed with seeing 6 gemmers but only 3 mundane in taverns.
B) He plays a reenegade mage, isolates himself till he gains power and then he starts raining down death on mundanes.
Result: Blatant flaming against magickers.. Not that the flamers are totally wrong, though.
C) He plays a reenegade mage, tries to blend in a population and hide his abilities. He either lives happily ever till he makes a mistake and gets found out or he dies to another mundane reason. This is my favourite. I'm proud to say a very big slice of my magickers tend to do this and not get caught to the very end. This option does not cause damage to the usual social structure of the game, but few people prefer this one. Why? Solo-emoting is boring when repetitive. I prefer this option just because I'm an off-peak. I won't have a lot of interaction both ways, so why to hurt the game world when you don't have to?
D) He finds a group of other mages. As a tightly knit group they RP together, avoid mundanes and look after each other.

Note: I'll keep on when I get home. I need to leave the computer now.

[Delirium]

I wasn't singling alesix out, it's a general trend I've noticed that annoys me.

I'll weigh in with explanations when I have more time later, but simply put, complaining about "Karmageddon" is doing no one any good. It reminds me a little of people reading a book or webcomic and getting in an uproar about a plot twist they don't like. It's a lot more fun to just read the story and take it as is. If you truly hate the way the story goes, a little quiet constructive criticism (i.e. emailing the mud) goes a lot further than public negativity and complaints (i.e. forum posts and ooc channel gossip), which might be ruining the mood for players who happen to be enjoying themselves.

[Malken]

Because I think that if you want to be able to MANIPULATE the game ending plots, you have to be a magicker or a more powerful being.

If you want to be INCLUDED in the game ending plots, you don't have to be.

[rishenko]

I'll weigh in with explanations when I have more time later, but simply put, complaining about "Karmageddon" is doing no one any good. It reminds me a little of people reading a book or webcomic and getting in an uproar about a plot twist they don't like. It's a lot more fun to just read the story and take it as is. If you truly hate the way the story goes, a little quiet constructive criticism (i.e. emailing the mud) goes a lot further than public negativity and complaints (i.e. forum posts and ooc channel gossip), which might be ruining the mood for players who happen to be enjoying themselves.

Mud slinging, name calling, ripping other people apart and making blanket accusations is one thing.  Constructive criticism done in a public forum to find a generally agreeable, acceptable means of handling what many feel is a problem is something else entirely.

**Edit:  Part of the allure of the desolate environment are the secrets contained in an otherwise destroyed world.  Let's keep that balance, let's fight for it, let's try to find a way to keep this rich, relatively realistic world running with those extra hints of the impossible flowing through its veins.

[Salt Merchant]

See the next post please.  :arrow:

[Salt Merchant]

From the way the subject of magickers just keeps popping up again and again, even in threads not devoted to them, it seems evident to me at least that a good proportion of the player population dislikes magickers on general principle, and many others think they should be so limited that effectively they're not a significant part of the game.

Sounds to me like the simplest solution is just to remove all of the karma classes (not races) and be done with it. Leave magickers, sorcerers and psi to the staff to play as NPCs.

[Cale_Knight]

Here's what the situation looks like to me (and without going IC):

Special apped (and otherwise special) players and characters are being given not only more POWER, but are also being allowed to act without having to really worry about repercussions from the virtual powers that be.

So it's not just that we're giving some players F-16s with tactical nukes - it's that we've shut down the virtual anti-aircraft guns and left opposing PCs with slingshots.

[Armaddict]

So it's not just that we're giving some players F-16s with tactical nukes - it's that we've shut down the virtual anti-aircraft guns and left opposing PCs with slingshots.

This is the real issue at hand, methinks.  But...I don't view it as a virtual matter, at this point.  This problem is brought about by PC's themselves.  Us, the players.

In the past, it was a pretty well-known idea...you should hesitate to be 'good' with the magickers, and should almost never be 'good' with sorcerers or mindbenders.  You're scared of them, but that doesn't mean you aren't working to organize the pitch-fork rabble to make sure they never hurt you.

Now, in the past couple years, the vast majority of players seem to have grown a tendency for a 'bypass' mentality.  "I know that this is against cultural stigma, but this relationship has a definite advantage, and my character would see advantage and take it."  The question is...would your character -really- see that advantage?  Assuming they would is bypassing the cultural stigma implanted within the game.

Instead of the harsh treatment and supreme care that must be taken by these powerful PC's, they are getting used more and more, finding themselves leading more and more, and having their power accepted more and more.  The role is thus much more mainstream and enjoyable, with none of the old-time drawbacks of 'I might have problems with interaction and be a character that people want to hunt down or shit on.'

I'm not going to rant and rave about what we all need to do.  This is a game with in-depth atmosphere and interaction, and perhaps, the world is evolving away from the one set by the documentation, as per the manipulations of various and widespread leadership roles over time.  But it -is-, I think, a point worth noting...what things that should be running through your character's head are you bypassing due to other circumstance?

Edited to add:

I just wanted to reiterated.  There were never that many virtual anti-aircraft guns and such.  We -are- the anti-aircraft and such.  It's just that many of us have seen those sites getting bombed or whatever and decided that it's more beneficial to stand aside and give no reason to be bombed.  Which just lets them pick out from less targets, and have those who do or did have the power to stop those planes before they had unlimited fuel and ammo have no real incentive to do such.

A prime example?  Yeah.  Refuse to work with that templar because he's using a shitload of mages where its not necessary, and he may be pissed at you, and so on and so forth.  But over time, as it happens more consistently, you may see the definite shift back in the direction we came from, which is..."Yeah, I can use those mages, but I have to expect less cooperation and less support as a result.  I should keep their assistance discreet."

I think all of us are pretty much the problem, rather than people who play mages, or people who insist that the stigma is dumb.  It's got to be shown and reinforced by way more players than it is currently.  Which is why this may just be the culture evolving.

[Lizzie]

You know what I think is AWESOME? That in a multitude of magickers and mindbenders, I am the only mundane.

That's right, that's my secret. I AM THE ONLY MUNDANE NON-MAGICKER/NON-MINDBENDER LEFT AND I WILL KILLIFY EWE ALL!!!!1111

Seriously though, I'm fine with the current ratio. I'm having way too much fun to gripe about anything going on in the game. If an army of mindbending magickers came to my territory and violated every single NPC, VNPC, and PC in that area, including mine, in the most despicable, disgusting, and unmentionable way, I'd have a blast.

I say:

Bring it.

[Tarx]

You know what I think is AWESOME? That in a multitude of magickers and mindbenders, I am the only mundane.

I respectfully disagree, dorkwad!  

[Lizzie]

That's MS. Dorkwad to you, bub.

[spawnloser]

Removing all the karma options completely from play?  Thanks, I'll play real life, in that case.  I like a fantasy or sci-fi setting.  That's why I'm here.

As Delirium said, bitching about things in such a public fashion just creates more problems, what with people getting irritated and then likely taking that irritation and having it associate with magickers so that they dislike magickers more.  My question always is, in a world that has been shaped by magick, why are they surprised that magick is about?  Part of the visibility problem is the confrontational issue which has been discussed in length by LoD already.  With nowhere for them to be accepted, they're everywhere else, fouling up everything in their attempt to do what they do.

[Angela Christine]

Removing all the karma options completely from play?  Thanks, I'll play real life, in that case.  I like a fantasy or sci-fi setting.  That's why I'm here.

I agree.  And I think it would hurt the game in the long run (or even the medium run).


Years ago I was getting tired of Threshold, the MUD I'd been playing for a few years.  I was going threw about 20+ MUDs a week, looking for a good one, and it took very little for me to throw one on the DO NOT WANT pile, because there were hundreds more to look at.  Armageddon was right on the line for a while, because it had several things I didn't like:

It is a DIKU MUD.  Starting in Midgaard dozens of times had given me an unreasonable dislike of DIKUs.  (I'm not utterly opposed to keeping stock zones, especially in a young and growing MUD, but I think they should put zones they created themselves as the starting areas.)

No color or even basic options for adding color in game.  I got used to it and even like it now, but as a newbie I was disappointed that there wasn't even an

option to get speech, psis and a few other important things customized to a different color.

It is set in a desert environment. I prefer a varied setting.  Not necessarily lush jungles and verdant valleys, but more variety than the docs led me to expect.  (In fact there is some variety in the Known world, but the scanning docs and starting in Allanak could lead one to believe it was all sand and rocks).  For desolate environments, I strongly prefer "cold and barren" to "hot and barren" because I don't like hot weather.

Long application time.  When I'm just "checking out" a MUD for the first time, I want to get in and take a look around, having to submit and wait for an application is a downer.

Limited skill customization.  I like it when character creation involves a point-buy system to let you customize your skills.  Not only does Armageddon not let you customize your skills, you aren't allowed to know up front what starting skills go with which guilds and subguilds.  (I know now because I've gotten better at decoding the class descriptions, and because I've died enough to try almost every guild and subguild, but it was discouraging back when I was still looking for a MUD).

Complicated emote system (compared to most MUDs) limited emote format (compared to most MUSHes) almost none of the old familiar "socials".  

As a newbie I couldn't play a scholarly type character.  I like scholarly characters, but the lack of literacy and the setting makes that almost impossible for a normal character.  I didn't find out until later that scholarly characters were utterly impossible when I started, even for people that could read, because there was nothing to read.  A bug in the code for books gradually made them pretty much unreadable within a few months of their creation.  So even if I managed to make a scholarly Allanaki noble, I'd never get to rummage around in the great library, or read the diaries of long-dead characters.     I think this was fixed a while ago, but there still aren't going to be many old books kicking around from before it was fixed.

As a newbie I wouldn't be allowed to play a mage, cleric, psionicist, or a number of races.  I'd played in a WoD MUSH before, so I sort of understood the concept of keeping "supers" out of the hands of newbies, but I wasn't thrilled about having to wait an unspecified amount of time before I could even try them out.[/list]


Obviously the things I liked about Armageddon outweighed the things I initially disliked about it, but it was a near thing.  Every potential new player has their own list of preferences and requirements, and hundreds of MUDs to choose from.  I think more potential players would be turned off by "No supernatural guilds available" than are turned away by "Too many people playing supernatural guilds".  

I don't think that the average potential player would even understand how "too many mages" could be a problem.  In a WoD MUSH probably 90% of the PCs have some supernatural affiliation or psychic ability, or else are actively trying to get their "just plain human" PC hooked up with the Vampires or Changelings or whatever.  In an ordinary fantasy MUD, about half the PCs are mages, clerics, or other blatantly supernatural classes.  "No magickal guilds period" would be a huge turn off for some players, and many potential players.



If something has to be done about magicker classes, I say: Nerf them into oblivion.  That way the numbers will naturally decrease, the twinks and powergamers will go back to playing half-giant warriors, and everyone will be happy.

[ale six]

I think it's interesting that voicing an opinion about something we don't like on the GDB is "gossiping", "bitching", "moaning", or "complaining", as contrasted with "constructive criticism". If anyone could please PM me and point out where in my original post I have bitched or moaned, I'd appreciate it. I was trying to be constructive. I don't consider myself a very bitchy poster.

And if even one staff member has read this post and cared, then I think ultimately it's served its purpose.

If this discussion hurts your enjoyment of the game, I'm sorry. Don't read it. For the record, I am still playing, still enjoying my character, and still having fun in Armageddon. I am not trying to torpedo the game or incite a rebellion, and I don't think anyone else is either.

Raising concerns about this aspect of the game is no different than voicing them about any other. You can't shout people down and say they're hurting the game by speaking up about too many karma-skilled PCs, unless you want to say that every argument against something in the game hurts it. I don't think it does. I also don't think we should have to simply shrug off things we don't like and "take it as it is."

If I'm reading a book or a webcomic and I don't like a plot twist, I'll shrug and move on. I can't control what a writer has done with his own story. I also have no personal stock invested in it besides the time I've spent reading already. We all have significantly more personal stock invested in Armageddon. Many of our characters have multiple DAYS worth of time invested. We all get to, on some level large or small, help shape and create the story together. In my mind that gives me some standing to speak up politely and say I don't like roads it's taking.

In my opinion the road the game has traveled on has made it significantly different than it was a year ago. I don't like the direction it's gone. I'm not advocating for the elimination of all karma guilds entirely, and I'm not sure if anyone is. I'm just asking for the staff and players both to show some restraint. I would like to see some kind of factors limiting mages, sorcs, and psis in the game, to keep them rare and enforce their balance. Whether that limit comes from less lenience in special apps, or consideration of how many PCs of Guild X are in the game before approving more, or just having black robed templars drop from the sky and whack PCs that are being too open and abusive with their powers, I don't really care. That's a decision for staff to make. I just hope they choose to do something.

Until then, my opinion is mine and apparently some others'; I haven't seen anyone being overly bitchy, unreasonable, or spreading IC info in this discussion; and I don't think expressing it the way anyone has is destroying the game. If it hurts your enjoyment, I do apologise. Playing Armageddon is always more fun than reading the GDB.

[Delirium]

Okay, a few things here:

:arrow: I wasn't referring to any specific event or person when I mentioned my dislike of "Karmageddon" complaints.

It's a trend I've been noticing on the GDB and it's one I'm finding tiresome. That is my opinion, no more, no less.

The long and short of it is that, just as we see shifts in focus between Allanak, Tuluk, half-elves, and upper-class roleplay, we are seeing a shift in focus right now onto the magickal and psionic side of Armageddon. The reasons for that shift are, to me, very clear, but I can't and won't go into them on the GDB. No, not everyone enjoys a proliferation of this kind of roleplay, but some people do. Constantly complaining about it because you personally don't like it (again, I'm not speaking of any one person, but of the general trend) does little good, and only adds to a negative atmosphere.

There are a lot of options out there for completely mundane roleplay. Yes, if you want to get involved in the end-game plots, you can do so as a mundane, but you will be exposed to things that are not mundane, because a coming apocalypse and beings of awful, incomprehensible power are generally not mundane. Go figure. Yes, if you want to get involved with plots that are mundane and have nothing to do with magick, psionics, or coming apocalypses, you can. Start one yourself. I can think of three plots off the top of my head that I have completed or am involved in right now that have absolutely nothing to do with magick, psionics, or anything otherwise out of the range of normal player-character life.

It's been repeated so many times it's cliche: Be the change you want to see.

:arrow: I have no problem with posts on the GDB that voice an opinion about something you don't like about the game.

I have a problem when that's done in such a way that reveals unnecessary IC information, provides no solution, and/or is little more than a rant, flame, or thinly-veiled bash on someone else's roleplay. If you haven't been doing this, then I'm not talking about you.  I have a problem with people that use IM clients to complain about specific IC events and gossip about things they should not be mentioning outside the game. If you haven't been doing this, then I'm not talking about you.

My previous post was written hastily because I was short on time, so I realize I didn't clarify the section where I addressed forum posts. The meaning I intended was what I just detailed above.

:arrow: I agree that the game has changed, and there isn't as much focus on mundane life as there once was.

The thing is, if you look back over the years, there is always a complaint to be made about how the game isn't as focused on the facet a portion of the playerbase enjoys most. Too much focus on the upper class and not enough focus on the gritty life, and vice versa. Too many mages, not enough mages. Too little fear of mages, too much power given to mages. It all goes in cycles. At least this time, the cycle has a potentially solid reason for existing, which I invite people to explore in-game.

Contrary to (apparently) popular conception, you don't have to be a mage, psion, or otherwise extraordinary character to get involved in fun things. There is a distinction between being involved and being in charge, here, and perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of people feel like they want to be in charge, and dislike the idea of simply going along for the wild ride. I contest that you still can affect and change even the broadest reaching plotlines with a perfectly mundane character; it's just harder, and requires a certain amount of cleverness, game knowledge, luck, and good timing. It is possible, but I'd also offer that we should be enjoying the game for the story of it, not to be the one that "wins" Armageddon.

If you want to see more mundane plots, create them. Don't wait for a staff member to hand it to you.

[Malken]

The long and short of it is that, just as we see shifts in focus between Allanak, Tuluk, half-elves, and upper-class roleplay, we are seeing a shift in focus right now onto the magickal and psionic side of Armageddon.

I hate the comparison to the half-elf complain, each time the "Too many magickers" complains happen, someone always refer back to the "Too many half-elves" complains from the past.

You can NOT compare the two, the too many half-elves and other assorted complains happen MAYBE once every two years and never lasts for more than a week or so...

The "Too many magickers" complains happen in almost a thread out of three nowadays and has been going on for more than a year now..

You really cannot compare any complains to the "Too many magickers" complains anymore.

[Malken]

If you want to see more mundane plots, create them. Don't wait for a staff member to hand it to you.

You can create as many mundane plots as you want but when your mundane guy who just wants to take a mouthful of fresh air gets blasted and killed by the third Johnny Storm you hear about this week, it can really get old.

Sorry for the double post, y'all.

[Forest Junkie]

Thank you D.

Everyone, seriously, enough is enough. We all know what's happened, and we all know that nothing is likely going to change. Rather, things will only become more skewed as we draw closer to the conclusion of Armageddon. Such is the nature of things, as Delirium pointed out.

Perhaps now that the problem has been touched on (multiple times) we can move on and focus on what really matters: playing the game.

[Angela Christine]

Meh.  The player base never accurately reflects the virtual population.  Never.

[Adhira]

As has been pointed out some of the changes that are being observed in the game are due to IC happenings and are consequences and reflections of that.

I'm going to close this thread to prevent it degenerating into groups of those who like a particular trend and those who don't. Those are personal preferences and you are all entilted to hold them.

However, the staff do not consider that the game is 'broken' or out of sync. Hopefully there are enough places, people, rp and stories going on out there that most folks can find something to amuse and entertain themselves and their characters with, whatever their preferences.