Archery

[Greve]

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[Desertman]

I think the main reason there are not more archery targets available....is because IMM's do not want people spamming up thier skills with them....This was a major problem when people realized you could..."Backstab Dummy". Its not about realism, I agree it is realistic to use targets for training...But for playability in a skill based game like this, it just isnt something the IMM's want to deal with.


But, you did mention slings, and this has nothing to do with the main topic...sort of...but I would like to see slings have the ability to be fired in higher wind than arrows.

Sometimes when the wind is too strong and you try with a bow or sling you get..."It would be impossible to shoot in this wind"...(Or something like that).....I want to see slings be able to shoot in higher wind.....Wind can carry arrows much easier than wind can carry a rounded stone. This would also make slings a bit more useful in some situations....

Code Select Expand



The green-eyed commanding officer looks back to his line of archers all standing at the ready, bows in hand as the wind screams past them from the north.

The green-eyed commanding officer shouts in northern-accented sirihish "The wind is up. Archers, slings at the ready!"

A unit of lightly-armored archers slings thier bows over thier backs in unison and each produce a leather sling from their belt pouches.

The green-eyed commanding officer shouts in northern-accented sirihish "Here they come men!...LOAD!....MAKE READY!...LOOSE!"

A unit of lightly-armored archers send a hail of stones through the strong wind to the south.




Ehh...something like that.

[Xio]

If the archery ranges worked like dummies where at a certain point you stopped missing then I don't see how they'd really be a problem. As for slings I personally think they should operate much more differently then they do now, because as I see them now they are just an inexpensive way to get archery up. I've tried hunting small game with slings to no avail. The size and shape of the rock should affect its flight pattern and what type of damage it does. If you hit a goudra in the eye with a sharp piece of flint I think it'd be hurting more than it'd feel stunned whereas if you got yourself a massively wide sling and hurled a block of marble the size of your head at the goudra, I'm pretty sure you're gonna knock it silly. It'd be nice if in Arm2 slings were their own skill, or maybe a subset of archery that trains/is trained by archery to a lesser extent than itself is trained when in use since shot timing is both an aspect of archery and sling use, and had a different approach on ranged combat than archery. Also some new and different slings, maybe designed for different races or rocks or both would be nice I think.

[Forest Junkie]

Just make using slings a subset skill of throw, or make it and throw the same thing. I'd suggest throwing blowguns into the mix of that as well.

Blowguns, slings, and throw one skill, or three separate ones since they are inherently different (even though there are certain similarities between the appliction of a sling and an atlatl)

Keep archery another skill altogether.

[X-D]

Being one of the very rare people living in the US today who actually has made and learned to use a sling. Something I started nearly 20 years ago and keep up today. I can say that slings in arm are GROSSLY under powered.

Yes, a sling is hard to learn to use, it takes more skill and practice then a bow. But, the projectile is MUCH more massive, it does not work well against some armor, but against normal animals, you can destroy bones and organs with ease.

Somebody paste the link of the bird getting nailed by a baseball. That ball was doing 100mph or less. I can fire stones that weigh that much at over 160mph and Lead sling bullets at nearly 190mph.

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, the current record for the greatest distance achieved in hurling an object from a sling is: 477.10m (1565ft 4in), using a 127cm (50in) long sling and a 62g (2.12oz) dart. This was achieved by David Engvall at Baldwin Lake, California, USA on 13 September 1992. Those of a more traditional bent may prefer the Guinness record for slinging a stone: 437.10 m (1434 ft 2 in), using a 129.5cm (51in) long sling and a 52g (1.8oz) ovoid stone, set by Larry Bray in Loa, Utah, USA on 21 August 1981.

I've not checked, but I'm pretty sure no arrow from a normal bow has gone that distance. Also I noticed that in History it was not uncommon for the sling to be issued as a backup weapon. As per Desertman's suggestion.

The other reason I can find why slings lost ground to archers in more recent history is simply numbers, slingers need a LOT more room, so, you have fewer projectiles per square foot.

I'd LOVE to see slinging have its own skill in Arm2 though...it really is something completly different.

And I will leave you with this...

The clumsiest part of using a shepherd's sling is to regain control of the release cord. Conventionally, the loop of the retention cord is placed around a finger of the strong hand. Several projectiles may be held in the weak hand. After the release, an expert will continue the motion. The cradle will catch around a stone held out with the weak hand, so that the end of the release cord swings back to the strong hand retaining the loop. Just after the knot begins to swing, slightly before the knot reaches the strong hand, one drops or throws the projectile toward the ground with the weak hand, starting into the next release. Some persons braid the end of the release cord around a weight to help perform this manoeuvre. With this method, a skillful user can throw an aimed stone every few seconds in a cyclic coordinated movement, until the weak hand is empty.

I'm not THAT good...yet.

[Desertman]

I think the main reason slings dont take off a great deal of damage is because it hasnt been messed with since they put in the ability for your armor to take into consideration blocking missile weapons....I think that slings never took off much damage because there was no other code to compensate for armor that would work well for blocking stones, so they just reduced the damage of the sling all together.

Now that there is a code that will allow armor to block missile weapons, I think slings should be looked at again.

Think of it this way....You are fifty yards off, someone shoots an arrow at you, it hits you in your leg, goes clean through, or sticks into your meaty thigh...shit that fucking hurts, its time to book it and limp out of here.

You are fifty yards off and someone slings a rounded chunk of granite the size of your fist into your thigh, the bone is going to shatter no matter what you do, now you are on your ass and in some wicked awful pain.

(Yes I know, arrows can shatter bones too, but its more likely that a fist sized chunk of granite is going to strike bone than a quarter sized arrow head)

That is just one example....I know there are a million examples of why arrows are more deadly, and it all comes down to the situation in question.

I'm not saying arrows should take off less damage than they do now I'm not even saying arrows should be touched at all, I am just wanting to change slinging.

All I am saying is now that armor does have a code to block stones and arrows...lets make slings have some actual realistic bone crushing power when they slam into the side of your un-helmeted head.


I would also note that I have never really used a sling IG much...I am more of a bow and arrow man...I am simply going off of the experiences of those folks who have apparently used slings above.

[Xio]

Blowguns, slings, and throw one skill, or three separate ones since they are inherently different (even though there are certain similarities between the appliction of a sling and an atlatl)

If anything I think blowguns would be more similar to bows then to throwing.
Though slings and throwing might be a good match up, since essentially slings are just you throwing stuff harder and faster using a piece of leather.

And I agree with X-D, slings are highly underpowered in Arm. At first I just thought I sucked with them, then I came to realize they just weren't good, basically.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I would be all for having atlatl available for use.  They're easier to make than bows and easier to use than a sling (though I'd love to see having slings be more true to their real power, too), and while not as powerful as a sling, they're definitely more powerful than throwing rocks with only the strength of your arm.  Even more effectively than launching rocks, atlatl are also useful for giving a lot more power to your average javelin (or smaller javelins called 'dart's, which are more commonly used).

Anyway, ever since we used atlatl at an archery camp I went to when I was younger, I've loved them.  And if a ten year old can learn to use one in two weeks with reasonable force and accuracy, and they take up less valuable materials than bows and arrows to both make and use, I can't see why they wouldn't be popular on Zalanthas.

Go atlatl!

[Pale Horse]

I would be all for having atlatl available for use.  They're easier to make than bows and easier to use than a sling (though I'd love to see having slings be more true to their real power, too), and while not as powerful as a sling, they're definitely more powerful than throwing rocks with only the strength of your arm.  Even more effectively than launching rocks, atlatl are also useful for giving a lot more power to your average javelin (or smaller javelins called 'dart's, which are more commonly used).

Anyway, ever since we used atlatl at an archery camp I went to when I was younger, I've loved them.  And if a ten year old can learn to use one in two weeks with reasonable force and accuracy, and they take up less valuable materials than bows and arrows to both make and use, I can't see why they wouldn't be popular on Zalanthas.

Go atlatl!

Let me think...Yes..yes, every time the topic of Archery comes up on the GDB, I believe that atlatls are mentioned...And in my opinion, that's a good thing.  The player base has always seemed to have a favorable impression with them, so...I'm chiming in and saying "Go atlatl!" as well.

[Desertman]

I think its just because there really arent any throw related items....You have braces for archery, special wear for sneaking, ect.....Lets get something in there for the aspiring throwing master to buy and be proud of....

I like the idea of them.

[X-D]

The atlatl is a good idea, for throwing, and I've never had a problem with it being in game under throwing.

As to the rest, I'm actually hoping to see a slinging skill, a blowgun skill and archery in arm2. They each have a place. stealthy types would of course prefer a blowgun in many cases of ambush since thats really what its for, to deliver poisons, the darts themselves do very little damage. Short range but very accurate. Hunters going after animals would likly prefer slings, Tons of knockdown power and great range at a very low cost. And soldier types would prefer bows, much higher expense all around but with good medium range accuracy and a greater ability to punch through armor.


Why is this thread in code discussion anyway?

[Coat of Arms]

Why is this thread in code discussion anyway?

Seems like the correct forum to me. Not everything has to be about Arm Reborn, some of these things could be implemented for the current game if anyone takes the time. Not likely, but it's still the proper forum.

[Tisiphone]

I'm just calling for a playability check. No ideas of my own on that score as of yet (though I'll be sure to chime in when I get some). Simply put, the ideas above seem to follow realism, but would changing around the power balance of slings/arrows/atlats/blowguns upset things catastrophically? How can we keep this from happening? What are some realistic advantages and disadvantages of each form of missile weapon (keeping in mind the nearly unavoidable ones, such as sling ammunition being available nearly anywhere)?

[Salt Merchant]

I think the main reason there are not more archery targets available....is because IMM's do not want people spamming up thier skills with them....

Maybe, but how is that any worse than spamming up other skills by, for example, sparring or casting spells? Except that the arrows cost you coin whereas in the other examples you generally don't lose anything.

[Malken]

I am pulling this thread out because I want the Staff members to think once more about allowing archery targets to be available in game.

Here's my reason why:

Where I play, it has been storming nonstop for at least 3 RL weeks now, and right after a crash, it starts storming up again maybe an hour or so right after..

This make characters like mine that are supposed to rely on their bows more than anything else very hard to play and improve.

I haven't been able to use my bow more than a few times since I've started the character and he has been alive for a couple of months, now..

And even when its not really 'storming', the wind is always too strong for me to use the bow.

Like someone said, there are so many skills that you can improve so easily, like scan, listen, hide, sneak, haggle, peek, etc, etc... Even the combat skills all have another way to improve if something prevents you from doing so.. You can find a sparring partner or go kill beasties if you want to improve your weapon skills, the same goes with kick, bash, sap, etc.. I won't even comment on the magick system.

But with archery, you don't really have any other choices but to hope that the weather system will allow you to do so, and since, like I said, the weather system has been really bad in the last 3 weeks, my character can't improve the one skill that he should be an expert at.

I don't see how archery targets could be more abused than anything else in the game, you can throw darts at dartboards all day long if you wanted, it doesn't mean that many people do it..

So please, reconsider allowing archery targets in the game, its really needed until we have a nice stable weather system to go with archery.

Else allow archery during storms, even if you have a -50% penalty to your skill, at this point its better than nothing.

[Malken]

So.. Anyone has any thoughts on that..?

I mean, I knew that I was the only mundane ranger left in the game but c'mon  :?   :wink:

[Ghost]

Not that it matters much, but as far as I know dartboards would not improve your skill.  Of course this does not mean they should not.  I believe, having archery ranges, throw ranges, even dummies that actually can be used to increase your combat skill (even dummies designed specially for backstab/sap, yet hard to find) should be avaliable in the game.

[Angela Christine]

I think there should be some cross-skill synergy, where competence with one kind of distance weapon gives you a small degree of skill with the others (which is how I explain bows and slings being the same skill to myself).  Regardless of whether you are throwing a dart, knife, spear, or a baseball, or using a bow, crossbow or sling, you have to be able to accurately estimate distance and account for the effects of wind, lighting, etc.  Depth perception is automatic in creatures with more than one eye, but you can still hone the accuracy of it.  


So even something relatively easy like practicing darts should help out a little bit with other distance combat skills.  Giant's fist wouldn't help, even if you are strong enough to throw the ball quite far, because accuracy is not a factor.  As long as the ball lands somewhere on the field it is a good throw.  Throwing at nothing doesn't help you improve your hand-eye coordination or depth perception.