Merchant Licenses in the City States

[Marshmellow]

Something has recently come up again, and I'd just like to discuss it...

I was sure that the last time this was discussed, that the law in both city states was that in any business transaction ONE person needed a license.  Great Merchant House members, by nature of their affiliation, have a mass license paid by the taxes that the GMH family pays.

So why is it that PC templars, as soon as another PC is doing business with a PC GMH member, require licenses?

Before anyone says, "Well, they can make up whatever rules they want," understand that I know this.  It still seems silly to me that people are being encouraged to avoid PC to PC interaction by being charged for something they shouldn't be.

The only explanation that anyone I know has received in game is that if you are selling something, you need a license.  What about people selling to shops?  For those that wish to avoid paying for a license, they can go harvest/make goods to their heart's content and sell to shops to bring in all the coin they want, and the Templar PCs will likely be none the wiser.  Again, this is encouraging shop use without PC to PC interaction.

I know that responsible players will do what is appropriate, but still, I find this just a bit silly.  We need a solid consensus that everyone KNOWS, like posted in the laws of the city even, so that people that should know can and will know when the Templar is simply extorting money from them.

[Maso]

Yeh, I've been in situations where one PC has a license and one doesn't, and the Templars haul up the one who doesn't for doing business with the one who does....It's a bit annoying, it makes the Templar seem ignorant and like they don't know the 'rules', but as the OP pointed out - it seems to discourage PC to PC interaction.

Everyone makes money out of selling *something*, yet not everyone is a Merchant. I think only one person needing a license works - as they are likely to be the person making money out of buying and selling. It seems a bit ridiculous that everyone should need to have a Merchants license and thus class themselves as a merchant.

[Gimfalisette]

AFAIK:

GMH family members are not required to have merchant's licenses. They are covered under their House, which is already heavily taxed by the city-state. (The merchant's license being, in essence, a tax on independent merchants.)

Those independent merchants who are SELLING to PCs are required to have a merchant's license.

Those BUYING from an independent merchant are not required to have a license. Because they are not profiting. No profit, no tax.

Beyond that, yeah, if a templar makes you buy one, bummer.

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, licensing laws (more than just for merchants) are pretty inconsistent.   I'm not neccesarily sure that's an OOC problem that should be solved OOCly, though.

[Jherlen]

Licenses (in both cities) are just a form of legalised, formalized bribery. It's a way for templars to make money off of hapless people without having to get all blunt and straight out robbing them.

And templars need money. Won't somebody think of the poor starving templars?

Edit: And being robbed by templars can be a fun experience anyway. It certainly has always been an interesting moment in the lives of my PCs. Especially when they start demanding four, five, or six figures from you.  :shock:

[Ourla]

Those independent merchants who are SELLING to PCs are required to have a merchant's license.   Those BUYING from an independent merchant are not required to have a license. Because they are not profiting. No profit, no tax.

This is the way I've always operated.

[Rindan]

Technically, my understand is that only one person needs a license.  So long as one person in a transaction has a license, everything is cool.  That said, if a Templar wants to 'tax' you (as someone has already suggested), they might very well demand you buy a license.  Think of it from the Templar's perspective.  He sees a transaction going on, piles of 'sid are passing hands... and so he wanders over.  Instead of demanding a bribe, he makes bends a law which is not actually written down (at least not where commoners can see it... even if they could read) to extract a few 'sid from you.

Now, if the Templar was confused, then yes, it is a little irritating.  If the Templar was simply to squeeze your balls a little and can't stand the sight of money passing hands without dipping out a few coins for himself... well, good show.

[Nile]

Hah, I was involved in this exact sort of thing recently.

Ended with 2 angry dudes...

But yeah, its kinda strange when dealing with merchant houses means you need a token, but I guess if a Templar wants some sids then you shouldn't deny him that.

[Adhira]

Previous statements are correct.

Those who work for a Great Merchant House or are family and sell on that Houses behalf don't need a license. The House pays exorbitant tax to the city, they're covered in that.

Those who are not in one of the Merchant Houses that wish to sell their product need to get a merchant license.

A person who is buying from any kind of seller does not need a license.

If a Templar tells you that you have to pay for one, then you have a choice to ignore that at your own peril. If you're lucky enough to belong to a GMH, then you probably have a lot of leverage there and that Templar will have some pretty shoddy gear forever more.

[Dakkon Black]

There's always the chance that the templar doesn't give a rat's ass about what you sell, and who your house is. Hell, they might even hate you  :twisted:

[Marshmellow]

Okay, then when anyone sells to a shop, they should need a license too, shouldn't they?  Someone buys some new armor and then decidedes to sell off the old piece it replaces, and suddenly this person needs a few hundred extra coin to get a license.  Every independant crafter, which can be hard enough to get started as, will get hit with a nice hefty fee before they even get started to have any spare coin for the fee.  What about those obsidian miners or clay diggers?

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to make it fair or unfair in character, but I don't want to feel like I or anyone else is getting jerked around because of OOC misunderstandings.

[Tarx]

I think it really comes down to this:

Selling finished materials (things that have been crafted, not raw materials) on a regular basis probably means you need a merchant's license.

I'd personally ignore it until the templarate said something.
Or until my character felt guilty enough to buy one.
Etc.

[Maso]

I always simply saw it as: One person in the arrangement must have a license

I'm pretty sure that is what the docs say, and it makes the most sense. Therefore, you don't need to a license to SELL to merchants (houses/shops/indies) because they will have one - and it is likely the goods they are buying they will make more profit on. You obviously don't need a license to buy from Merchants, because you will be the one they are making their profit by selling to - and they will have a license.

You need a license if you're going to play merchant, or if you want to sell your pet bird to your mate who is also a grebber.

[Malken]

Perhaps the Templar was just poorly played and you should tell him so ICly.  :twisted:

[Marshmellow]

Okay, the reason I brought this up is because the current activities of PC Templars seems to discourage PC to PC interaction.  Pretend a PC is selling branches and feathers to Kadius so that Kadian employees can use those supplies to make arrows for their hunters.  If the PC Templar requires a PC to have a license to make that sale, but doesn't for sale to the NPC shop, some players would give up on selling to PCs (at least until the time they can afford the license) in favor of selling those same things (or other things) to shops instead.

If the law is that you need a license to make a sale (to PC or NPC shop) there would be no encouragement either way.  In fact, you could probably make more selling to PCs, so everyone making a sale is taxed evenly across the board.

If the law is that one person needs a license, then we're left with how things have always seemed to work, with the outside encouragement still going neither way.

My issue is that PC Templars are encouraging interaction with NPCs instead of PCs.  I assume this is not their intention, but it is the end result of their actions in some small way, in my eyes.

[Seeker]

My issue is that PC Templars are encouraging interaction with NPCs instead of PCs.  I assume this is not their intention, but it is the end result of their actions in some small way, in my eyes.

Incorrect.  The PC Templar IS encouraging your character to interact with another PC.  His.  And you know what?  He can.  

He can make you buy a "short haircut", a "yellow shirt before noon", and a "cough up the coins or die" license, also.


Seeker

[Marshmellow]

Incorrect.  The PC Templar IS encouraging your character to interact with another PC.  His.  And you know what?  He can.  

He can make you buy a "short haircut", a "yellow shirt before noon", and a "cough up the coins or die" license, also.

No, by doing what you're suggesting, the Templar is encouraging you to avoid the Templar in the future.  The Templar is encouraging people to do business outside the city.  The Templar is encouraging you to find someone to assassinate his stupid self...not interact with him even one more time.  He's only FORCING you to interact with him that one time, but he's encouraging you to NOT interact with him ever again.

Templars do not have unlimited power.  They have to keep in mind politics.  If a Templar is screwing with too many people that are quite able to avoid that Templar and still make a healthy profit, eventually those people will have MUCH more monetary power than that Templar.  If the Templar taxes the person for something inane and silly, the other person will simply do everything they can to avoid that Templar until they have finally reached the local assassin's price tag for taking that Templar out.  Templars do have quite a bit of power, but they are NOT omnipotent.  There are FAR more people with money than there are Templars.

[LauraMars]

The templar I avoid is the one that wants to kill me.  Not the one that wants 25 bucks.  I'd rather be taxed by a templar for some stupid reason than targeted by him and his half giants for brutal (perhaps even lethal) harassment every time he comes into my local tavern hang out.

Templars have huge PK power within the walls of a city state and can kill people whenever they want.  I've seen templars get away with some phenomenally retarded kills, politically, with little to no consequences to themselves.  This is stupid.  I guess they're supposed to be assholes, but if one is choosing to squeeze some coins from players for imaginary offenses rather than chuck them in the arena for imaginary offenses, I'm damn well going to be a good sport about it and play along.

[Marshmellow]

The problem with that, Laura, is that eventually (and quite likely, quickly) people will become annoyed with a Templar that does either of the things you've suggested, and will move out of the city in question, or if they are killed, make their next character FAR away from the Templar, do the same.

[LauraMars]

What should a templar do, then, to avoid driving away every single pc in their  city, as you seem to think they will if they harrass other players in any way?

[Adhira]

Since this is just turning into bickering I'm locking the thread.

The actual rules have been said. What happens IC happens IC and should be followed up appropriately, whether that means avoiding the taxers, paying it, loving it, or selling to npcs.