sneaking, hood raised...

[Cenghiz]

AFAIK Sneaking in city is illegal. Wandering with your hood raised indoors? I think it's not illegal, but it's really a suspicious behaviour. So sneaking hood raised and never emoting?
....
I don't want to be stolen from by a power-player. Is there a way to prevent this? And may I inform the immortals in a way so at least an imm may warn that person?

[Hoodwink]

How is not emoting while sneaking indicative of a power-player?

I don't think sneaking is illegal, since it's not defined in the game as anything other than going about on tiptoe trying not to be heard.  I'll admit it looks suspicious, but illegal?

If I were trying to steal from someone, I would definately put a hood up.  That way if you do notice me -- even when I'm hoping you don't -- you might have less a chance of recognising me.

[John]

I don't think sneaking is illegal, since it's not defined in the game as anything other than going about on tiptoe trying not to be heard.

I don't think it HAS to be that. I often code sneak IRL and people often don't hear me walking and get a fright when they turn around  :twisted: But I'm not "tip-toeing" or doing anything suspicious other then walking normally, just at a VERY slow pace (and quietly of course).

I take sneaking IG as walking carefully and/or trying to blend into the crowd. So if I'm following someone, I'll walk through the thickest parts of the crowd so they don't have less of a chance of seeing me.

[Lazloth]

Wandering with your hood raised indoors? I think it's not illegal, but it's really a suspicious behaviour.

Hoods have bothered me from day one (but at the very least, they don't mask the main desc).  I find myself making a conscious effort [OOC] to not cloak my features, but alas, I fight the battle alone.

[rnix]

Personally I don't think people would sneak around and hide if they didn't have to. If you are playing a character who steals and you are hiding watching someone everywhere they go you can't even type a skill or see what you have on you because it'll give you away. If you emote everyone in the room or that person flips out scanning every five seconds.... So now tell me what you do then? Its challenging enough to play these characters you have to see it for yourself to understand.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I think it's an iffy subject. People who see 'someone' tend to scan and freak out even though, in my eyes at least, they didnt see the person (since it said 'someone').

I've actually been asked before -not- to emote while having a certain magick effect on me. Thinks can work fine.

[Carduus]

Wouldn't it be funny if you couldn't see some people who weren't sneaking if you were drunk or something? Make this lack of perception thing work on a continuum, so they wouldn't necessarily freak out if they didn't see someone.

[My 2 sids]

I think the main thing is to stay in character.  Some people are or just come across as plain creepy and strange.  If a character is one that just happens to come across as a sneeky and creepy guy, so be it.  The main thing is to try and keep up the apperence of the Character.  If one is trying to be lowd and seen and then goes off creeping around, that just dosent make sense.

From the help emote files

Emote is a vital command used in role-playing on Armageddon MUD. This
command is used for expressing oneself visually

If you are invisible, Then you have no need to express yourself visually.

From emote-examples:

in general, try to
     make the emote grammatically correct for what most people will see.

Since we cannot see you..then the grammatically correct thing for us to see is no emote at all or nothing. Or the player should not be able to see the emote if he can only see a someone. Of course just my interpretation.

"If you are invisible, Then you have no need to express yourself visually."

That is a very big misconception that isnt true.
Just like- You dont need to emote when your alone.

Just because you think your invisible or hidden doesnt mean there arnt those who can or will see you. You should always emote, and leave it to them to be the bigger person and go along with you, when they as players will know your there, but the character wont.

A bad situation would be when you think your invisibile to a good group of people, then do some nice emotes like 'Shadows flicker along the wall as @ passes the light sources.' then everyone stands and scans. Now obviously someone might get suspicious, but thats a little twinkish because they are relying on their player knowledge that there is indeed someone there. A good thing would maybe be for a few people to glance over towards the wall, be a little suspicious as the unseen light change, maybe blame it on a fluke wind and then go back to their business. Then you might approach- "The light sound of footsteps resound behind ~man as @ approaches." They might look over their shoulder quickly and stand, whereas you'd duck out of the way to not be seen.

Im going to make a broad statement and say that NO ONE can move absolutely unseen and unheard by everyone. No one is that great, there are always those slip ups, or people that have acute senses. Now sneaking of course is a little bit of an exception, they are trained that way.  But 'invisible' people are just unseen, they will probably still be very much heard as they walk.

Next, like if your sneaking planning an assault on someone, it might blow your cover to 'grip your dagger tightly' or 'crouch behind them' when in actuality their character wouldnt see it, but it adds alot to the game, and makes you a better player really then just walking up to someone and stabbing them under the thought of 'Oh well they wouldnt really be able to see me doing anything anyways.' Your breathing might become quicker, making an audible, detectable sound to the person...

Anyways, thats all.

This all sounds like stuff that was brought up in the semote thread a while back...

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1692

[Meep]

A bad situation would be when you think your invisibile to a good group of people, then do some nice emotes like 'Shadows flicker along the wall as @ passes the light sources.' then everyone stands and scans. Now obviously someone might get suspicious, but thats a little twinkish because they are relying on their player knowledge that there is indeed someone there.

This kind of thing irritates me to no end. It's as though everyone has some sort of supernatural ability to differentiate flickering candles or fleeting shadows in a room filled with inhabitants. It is piss-poor to stand up and start spamming scan. If it was so important to scan than it should be done before you even enter the place. Not because you, as a player, suspect someone is there. Of course people are there! It's a tavern! (where I've mostly witnessed this sort of thing). It's understandable if you were in a completely enclosed room with few people. But people do this all the time, when a player is nice enough to let them know that they are there, and hidden/invis. I would understand if other events were emoted but flickering candles and extremely fleeting shadows are rarely even noticeable in a crowded tavern full of people.

Kudos to the people who emote like this anyways because it's the realistic thing to do, at least one person will never scan even if they are able to (me) and a big boo to the people who auto-scan on seeing it (piss-poor, imho, without any other emotes that would signal there's a possible hidden/invis person in the room).

[sancho]

- - Sneaking in city is legal. Sneaking in five-out-of-five of the centers of civilization I have seen is legal. I am willing to bet that it is legal in most, if not all of them. Wandering with your hood raised is legal. In many places, it's not even suspiscious. Sneaking with a hood down is actually harder to believe as realistic RPing than sneaking with a hood up. I will explain.

- - When you are sneaking, you are attempting to go unnoticed. This is mostly an act of moving silently, as well as blending in with crowds. However, silence is the key factor in sneaking. That is why LISTEN aids in detecing people using the SNEAK skill, while SCAN does not. If things are quiet and you suddenly hear a noise, don't you turn to look? Being that (when you are the sneaker) your primary goal is to go unheard, you want to be harder to identify when you screw up. Therefor, moving along silently with your face exposed is to purposely take a greater risk.

- - As for emoting while sneaking, this should be avoided entirely unless performing an action. There are two reasons:

1) It makes it harder for everyone else to RP.
------Sometimes player-instinct flares up, and you suddenly realise something is amiss, even without being prompted with text from the MUD. Sometimes your character's personality quirks might make it decide to look over the room or SCAN and, as such, spot a thief. However, when you see "Someone" emoting, you are put in a delicate situation. Would your character become suddenly aware of a situation, or are you being influenced by the fact you now know there is someone there?

------A lot of you might scoff and give the "good RPer" speech, but the reality is that it is a difficult situation for any RPer. You (the all-encompassing "you") have to consider two things, when weighing between noticing and not noticing. If you act, you might be crossing OOC and IC because of what you know. If you don't act, it is just as likely you're not noticing something IC because you're afraid you'd be using OOC knowledge by acting.

------On the other hand, by not emoting unless performing an action upon another player, you avoid this scenario. If someone sees you, they know they could be able to see you. If they don't, they are none-the-wiser. Emotes are supposed to enhance RP, not be substituted for role playing or done to meet some "artistic" quota. Emoting in a way that effectively betrays OOC information, just to appease the tastes other RPers and the Imms that might see you, is foolish and harmful.

2) You can't trust other RPers.
------It will snow Manna upon the heads of elven templar in Allanak before you should ever trust other RPers. There is one reason for this: when you die, you are dead. It doesn't matter that you were being the good RPer. It doesn't matter if the other person was graphically abusing OOC information to notice you. It doesn't matter if they graphically abuse OOC information to know that a thief will most likely have NOSAVE on and subdue you in the middle of a crowded room. It doesn't matter, because when your character dies that character is dead and crying foul play will never get that character ressurrected.

------Emoting is an OOC risk, rather than an IC risk, because technically the only person that will always see a hidden character's emote is the player of another character. It is an abuse of code that people can use to realise things. It is exactly like if they typed "look elf" and realized that your character was a half-elf even though there were no physical signs that it wasn't a human. To put it in other terms, you are choosing not to expose OOC information to those that might exploit it. RPing a thief is hard enough without blantant abuse by other players.

------I have born witness to the SCAN frenzies that people have when they see just one emote done by "Someone". I include higher-karma characters; it is absolutely not just newbies and powergamers. Please excuse the vulgarity, but catching and killing thieves gives a lot of players a chubby. Not the characters, but the players. Take one look at all of the anti-thief articles and ludicrous code changes that were suggested in the archives of the GDB and try to say it isn't true.

------People hate thieves because theft is the hardest thing to defend against in the game. People will sigh when a hack-and-slash character kills them. Steal from those players when they don't believe it was realistic (i.e. ever) and they will burn you in effigy on the GDB and demand that the Imms strip you of all your karma. They'll blame you for everything from the downfall of RP in Arm' to the rise of the Soviet Union.

------If you're a good thief, you're a powergamer. There are no good thieves that aren't powergamers. Obviously you couldn't deserve respect or the benefit of the doubt when you successfully snuck, hid, and then silently stole from someone. This goes double if you chose to use THINK instead of EMOTE to describe what you're doing, because emotes feed hungry children in the Middle East. So, you baby-killing, powergaming thief scum, Immortals should whisper in the ears of your victims so they can BLATANTLY abuse OOC information to spot your bad RPing ass and kill you dead. In fact, there ought to be code so we can kill anyone with the STEAL command in their skills without becoming wanted, because we victims are the good RPers. Since that won't help with hidden baby-killing, powergaming, ubernewbie thieves when our SCAN isn't high enough to spot them (even with the Imms whispering to us what we can't see because they don't emote), moving stealthily should be coded with a random chance of the thief spontaneously combusting, to protect the good RPers.

*pant* *pant*

- - Okay, I'll admit this turned into a rant. You know what? Victims need to take a long fucking look in the mirror when they want to see a potential bad RPer. When my merchant character had his red sandcloth veil stolen, do you know what I did? I had my already tempermental character explode with anger, instead of attacking something or someone on the GDB. Do you know what happened? I had a blast. My exteremly skilled merchant-crafter character tried to make a new veil. Veils, for those of you familiar with clothworking, is the easiest thing to make. It's a square. I failed every attempt (IC) over a period of four RL days.

- - My character was the one that became pissed off by the theft, not me. Quite the opposite, actually; I was elated. It was a point of character development. In addition, he began carrying a bag of poisoned food in his cloak (which was stolen and consumed  :wink: ). My character also was buzzing with activity for about a week, rather than sitting in a tavern and enjoying a good yawn.

- - Oh, and for those of you thinking of playing a game of character assassination, I am currently playing my first thief. The only other thief-type character I've played that tried using STEAL was so bad, he stopped trying to steal after his third attempt. He was forced into a life of mercantilism (a.k.a. "legalized theft").

- - All right, rant and story time is over.

Lesson for victims: It's better to give the thief the benefit of the doubt unless you clearly see otherwise (meaning you tightly hold something at your side and they steal it anyways, not because they didn't emote). If you have doubts, wish up or email the account; don't go on the GDB to "publically expose wrong-doing".

Lesson for thieves: Other players hate you and want you to die. Seeing your character dead is a close second. Don't be afraid of RPing realistically, even if you're the only one who knows it. You can take OOC risks if you want to, but don't stick your neck out because you want to look good to other people because you will probably pay.

I agree with a little of what Sancho said. But I have alot of disagreeing factors. Lets compare sneaking/stealing with say Rock-crafting. If you crafted object after object without so much as an emote you'd be frowned heavily upon. Yet its becoming almost encouraged to not emote while stealing/sneaking as it will get you caught. Thats upsetting. Like- dont enrich the game with descriptions of your actions because the players of the characters will be stupid and get you caught. I say screw that. Thatd be similar to me saying- Dont emote crafting because it will slow you down.

Emoting can be done in such a way as to not pass on emminent fear to the person you may be stalking. Doing light flickerings like I mentioned above, or just slipping between patrons can symbolize you approaching without letting it on to them.

Here is another great analogy.
Imagine me walking in a room with my pc, killing yours and leaving without so much as a word said. What would you think? Obviously you'd think- that ass/twink/whatever, he had no reason, blah blah blah.

Yet this seems acceptable.
sneak, south, hide, peek (person), steal (whatever) (person), west
That doesnt seem much different to me then walking in and killing someone without so much as a word, an action, etc.

Anyways Im done for now.

[creeper386]

Alright... I'm going to have to say for all your thief people out there, it's not as bad as Sancho says there. Yes, there can sometimes be spam-fests, but quite often especially lately, I've seen people hidden some way, have awesome emotes and just sitting back and watching everyone starting kicking it up a level instead of just sitting back an being bland(I'm not accusing anyone, I do this sometimes myself, specially if I just ease back and watch whats going on in Arm and forget about my own character).

For the most part it isn't that bad. And not everyone wants to kill the players of thieves or the thieves themselves. I personally love it when I get stolen from when it's RPed out well. I certainly dislike it when three weeks later I realize something is missing. It's hard starting out for thieves, and I think that sets players on a defensive streak and this STAYS when they become skills thieves. This isn't good. Posts supported this like sancho's there isn't good. Yes that stuff happens but it's not all encompassing, and to say so insults everyone that plays this MUD.

Personally I've seen steals fail and it continued RPing it out because it was RPed out in the first place. On other MUDs I've had a thief that I tried the absolutely quiet stance and another that I've gone with emoting things out and RPing. More often then not things went along just fine when I've gotten caught, it was fun and RPed out. JUST like in Armageddon. I've made major IC mistakes in front of templars and nobles. Even repeated minor mistakes. I've seen the same mistakes done by what seemed to be obviously newer people, also people that knew what they were doing but they never really did anything beyond the mistakes, and they got treated ALOT worse.

It might just be me, but all that above that I've said yes it's true. RPing things out more often then not puts thing in better light. You may have the character made at you, but it's worse when you have the player mad at you. Yes, if you as a player get mad you should try not to convey that, but the characters controled by the player it's going to happen. Also RPing things out is ALOT funner and more entertaining for everyone.

Now I'm not saying if your a thief you should constantly emote. I'm not saying you should only RP if you plan on failing or making mistakes. Nor am a saying thieves should give things away with emotes. You don't have to give a theft away, or the chase away and you can STILL emote. I also don't beleive you have to always be hiding and sneaking when making steals... Maybe codewise it helps? I don't know, but most the times I've ever stole it was all right out in the open for the most part...

Creeper who thinks he might have a different view and theft and such from everyone else... Kind of like the whole backstab thing.

[sancho]

To Jenred:
- - Comparing SNEAK and HIDE to crafting a rock is a terrible example. At no point did I ever mention being slowed down by emoting. I said emoting causes people to see "Someone -emote-", which then alerts them to there being a hidden person there. At this point they usually either SCAN, emote looking around suspiscously, or simply realise there is somewhere else they have to be. They move things in and out of packs faster, spamming those commands so you cannot steal loose goods in their hands.

In regards to the other thing you said...

Here is another great analogy.
Imagine me walking in a room with my pc, killing yours and leaving without so much as a word said. What would you think? Obviously you'd think- that ass/twink/whatever, he had no reason, blah blah blah.

Yet this seems acceptable.
sneak, south, hide, peek (person), steal (whatever) (person), west
That doesnt seem much different to me then walking in and killing someone without so much as a word, an action, etc.

- - That is a really, really bad analogy. I am talking about people using OOC knowledge they get from seeing your emotes, and you're talking about spamming commands. Do you even read the posts before replying to them, or skim for sentences to point to out-of-context? To answer your question, though, no I would not assume someone who came in and attacked me was an ass/twink/whatever. I have repeatedly posted that you should not assume someone was not poperly motivated to do a thing simply because you do not know their motivation.

- - In addition, walking into a room and attacking someone without a word does not threaten your character by giving someone else OOC information to abuse. Sneaking and emoting does. I am not against emoting. I am against people who think it is necessary regardless of circumstance. Every single emote you described would alert someone. Would a good RPer react? No. I didn't react when an elf creeped up on me and stole a dagger off one of my previous characters.

- - Saying that someone ought to risk thir character's life or be labelled a powergamer/poor RPer is moronic. You disregard the fact my entire post was about things occurring OOC, to describe things IC.


To Creeper:
- - Like all things, there is an ebb and a flow. Some people that had thief issues may have gotten over it or are playing characters away from thieves. They will be back and/or replaced. I tend to take a harsh tone, because I despise bad RP... especially when the people shouting about it are the only ones with a problem. I do emote when I perform an action. I sometimes emote movement while sneaking but not hidden. However, for anyone to expect me to do this in any instance (or even expecting someone else to do it at all), just because "emoting makes RP much more betterer", is an insulting thing for someone to post.

- - Maybe things are better for theives now. I doubt they will stay that way, if they have. I've certainly not seen a difference.

[Quirk]

Kudos Sancho for a pair of funny, interesting posts.

I don't think I can agree with your first argument, that people who might have scanned anyway would be put in an invidious position by seeing the emote. I can't think of the last time someone in the same room as a character of mine stood up in the middle of a conversation and scanned. Scanned on entrance yes; scanned after a "someone" emote sadly yes. But I don't think the random scan is common enough to be meaningful.

I was set to disagree with your second argument. "Can't trust other RPers - faugh!" But the more I thought about it, and considered how seldom I've seen people with scan let a "someone" emote pass unchallenged... No, you can't trust an RPer chosen at random not to abuse the OOC knowledge that someone is there. Individual players may be different, but on the whole the playerbase is still twinky enough about this that the thief should probably use think for now. Of course, the thief might not be successfully hidden, at which point people will gripe at his lack of emotes - the only solution I can see to this is to implement an semote capability. The person playing the thief is always, always playing for higher stakes. The consequences of being caught are almost invariably worse than having your favourite veil stolen; the thief is known as a thief pretty quickly. As far as I can see most of the playerbase would secretly prefer to have the Pickpocket class abolished entirely - I even came across one  ludicrous post a little while back which suggested making it a karma class. It's time people realised that the much-maligned spam-stealing pickpocket is no worse a twink than the hidden emote scanner, and the emoteless pickpocket is just covering himself against the slipshod RP of most of the playerbase.

And, for the record, in seventeen characters I have played exactly one pickpocket, who lived perhaps 2 days of playing time. This isn't me being biased for pickpockets because I am one, this is just stating how the playerbase tries to screw the thief population.

Quirk

[The Lonely Hunter]

I really hate to post such a short message but...oh well.
I agree Sancho and I carry many of the same feelings but I'll often place my PCs life in the hands of the 'someone scanners' because, honestly, of fear of looking like a bad player.

I've played with you before, your a great player and it was very fun (a shame things worked out like they did) and it is pretty sad when there are others like those someone-scanners that really hinder the game.

[Cenghiz]

The situation was something different. Imagine someone comes in sneakily (not for my char, he hears it codewise, and is just reclining so may hear it IC). My character hears it and stares at the exit, seeing a hooded figure. Stands, looks at him frowning. Then my character decides to leave the room. He comes sneakily(!). then...

>emote slowly grips the hilt of ~axe.
>l <bla> eyebrows inclined.

... Nothing answering me. My character does not have the courage to attack and be taken to jail. So hurries to a soldier. I would wish to have the soldier animated and tell him the situation but I had to leave the computer. So I left the note quickly and only now I can answer it.
I DON'T want that kind of twinks around. I WANT them punished, at least warned. How can I make this happen?
I didn't say anything when someone robbed me off my everything while I was sleeping because he emoted. And I even didn't type wake, just emoted shaking my head slowly in my sleep. I didn't say anything when my pack was gone, kudos to that elf, he came closer to me and... I was tricked both IC and OOC. This time nothing's lost. But I think I'm really tempted and kill that twink twinkishly if I meet him in some proper place. It's not because of the power-play loss, no loss is present. It's because he messed my RP. (IC I didn't see his face, it was a little dark and he was hooded so I ignore what 'look' tells. So I can't and probably won't do anything IC, was joking.)

Note: I tried to give out the least IC knowledge to inform you, but sorry if this was a too IC.

Cenghiz whose ancestors also didn't like the twinks.

[Quirk]

If he stole from you, that's one thing, but if he didn't take anything you can hardly have him punished. He might think he was hidden, and not emoting because he didn't think he was visible; but once he saw your look echo, he should probably have dashed off an emote or two. I don't think you had any viable reason for attack in any case; sneaking round wearing a hood is not in itself a crime, and if he didn't emote but didn't take anything all you're left with is a minor irritation. Really, I don't think there's a great deal of ground for complaint here, I'm sorry to say.

Quirk

[Barzalene]

The other side of the coin is this. Emoting for yourself. I have played a theif who stole not only for the sid, but because she hated those she stole from. She left her hood up because she wanted to look shady. It was just one more silent fuck you to society. And when she stole, she banged into people, she made a scene.

And you know what? I had a ball.

Sancho is right. To a point. However, it you're having fun emoting your ass off. Do it.

[Cenghiz]

And.... Excuses to another hooded in Gaj. Thought you were that person, so I behaved like a twink. I would just tell him not to do that or die twinkishly. I tried to follow you to tell you that I did wrong OOC but you just went away.

[Bestatte]

I think there's also the character who involves himself in the hidden person's RP on a marginal level, which I consider a lot of fun.

Example:

L
You're in a big crowded bar, with 6 NPCs in various positions and 7 PCs at tables and at the bar, with a couple of other PS standing up on their way out.
You're sitting at the north table, the exit is to the north.

>Someone slips through the crowd toward the east wall.

(no reaction from you)

>Shadows flicker over the tavern as Someone moves under the torch, flattened against the wall.

>Your eyes flit over the flickering shadows and you arch your brow.

>You say, in sirihish, "Must be a breeze, though I didn't feel it. How about you?"

>Your guest shrugs.

>You cast a brief glance about the room.

>The hooded guy stealthily walks north.

>You chuckle and cluck your tongue.

>You say, in sirihish, "He needs to learn it isn't wise to try and hide under a lit torch, whoever that was."

>Your guest giggles and nods.

[Carduus]

Yeah, looking at Quirk's mention of an semote kinda thing, is there such a thing? Why not have emotes for those that can tell he's sneaking or hiding, and have it be silent for those that can't? That way, nobody's abusing info.

But bottom line, in my opinion, you should be able to trust your fellow PC not to hunt you down with ooc info because he's pissed off at you for being an assassin/thief/whatever. It's what you do.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are upset that you emoted towards him/her, and got no emotes in reply.

I don't see how him/her sneaking has anything to do with this.   If someone is sneaking do they owe you an emote back if you emote to them?

[Rindan]

Sancho can have my child.  He always leaves such nice and thoughtful rants.

Sneaking and hiding is a good time for the think command.  Think out your actions.  Personally, I completely agree with Sancho in saying that I flat out don't want to know if someone is trailing me or hiding in the room with me.  Exactly as he said, it impairs your ability to RP.  If you suddenly come up with a reason to be paranoid, it makes you the twink for acting on it.

That is not to say that there are not good uses for emoting while hidden, but describing how you are stalking your victim to your victim, in my opinion, is not one of them.  I recall one excellent use was having someone use it to call out an insult to a noble that was hanging out in place he would not be welcomed.  It was something to the extent of, "say (calling out from a crowd in the back of the tavern) Go back to your own kind you inbred kank fucker!"  The effect was awesome.

[RideTheDivide]

So - and forgive me if this is a stupid question - if I'm sitting in a bar and I get the message that:

"Someone looks at you"

Can I react to that without being a twink?  It seems like you're noticing that there's someone in the shadows checking you out.  Would it be good RP to then stand up and scan?

[Delirium]

Scene: A crowded, smoky tavern, people jostling each other on every side.

You: Sitting at the bar, scratching your ass idly, or drinking a mug of ale, or chatting with someone near you.

Them: Hiding in the shadows, casually surveying the crowd. Their glance happens to pass over you.

I don't think you'd notice that. Someone looking at you is just someone looking at you code-wise, there's no way it means you have to notice it ICly.

[Plazgoth]

I have not played many shady type of characters, but I thought that the look echo did not show if you were hidden. Does it show to everyone or those with high enough scan. I was under the impression that if you look at someone while hidden they will not see anything, am I wrong in my assumption?

[Delirium]

I'm not sure, to be honest. Either way, unless your character had reason to notice them looking at him/her, IMHO it'd be best to ignore it from an IC standpoint.

[Callisto]

I have not played many shady type of characters, but I thought that the look echo did not show if you were hidden. Does it show to everyone or those with high enough scan. I was under the impression that if you look at someone while hidden they will not see anything, am I wrong in my assumption?

No, if you successfully hide then no one can tell who you're looking at, regardless of scan and most magickal sight enhancements. Ranger Joe might be standing on a table pointing at you while screaming about a shadowy figure in the corner, but he won't be able to tell if you're looking him over for a nice sweet spot to plant a dagger.

[Anonymous]

My own view is if something is 'emoted' while hidden then it is an action that everyone in the room can see even if they cannot see the 'someone.'

Therefore, in my view, that is 'someone' grins at you - you will notice that someone grinned at you.  You might not realize who it was but you noticed a flash of a grin.  You can then react to this by trying to look around the crowd to see who did it.

Emotes by "someones" usually result in a scan fest - which is fine because the characters noticed whatever it was that was happening.  Expecting someone to 'ignore' the someone creeping upon them emote is silly.  Of course you notice it - it's right there in front of you - if you didn't notice it you would not have seen it.

Anything visual implies that you've seen it.  If you don't want another to see it use the 'think' command and emote in there.

[Anonymous]

Emotes by "someones" usually result in a scan fest - which is fine because the characters noticed whatever it was that was happening.  Expecting someone to 'ignore' the someone creeping upon them emote is silly.

No...its expecting people to roleplay something other than complete and utter omniscience on the part of their PC.

When you are at a busy restaurant do you notice everyone who walks in the door?
When you are in the middle of a crowded city street do you notice everyone turning onto your block?

Just because something pops up on your screen doesn't mean your PC would be in a position to notice it.

Any other conclusion involves everyone sitting watching the door to a tavern, or continually looking at every corner of the tavern, watching the shadows.

I hate scan spam when someone pumps out a someone emote.  I don't play thiefy characters, but I'd rather they emote from their hidden position and add flavour to the game than spamming sneak/hide/look/peek/steal and sneaking back out.

[Anonymous]

No...its expecting people to roleplay something other than complete and utter omniscience on the part of their PC.

Why?  If it is there on the screen then they can see it.  Should they elect not to - all the power to them but it is their perogative to note it.  If a 'someone' is doing open emotes - then I expect they want to be noticed.

When you are at a busy restaurant do you notice everyone who walks in the door?
When you are in the middle of a crowded city street do you notice everyone turning onto your block?

Sometimes yes.  Especially if they are obvious about doing something - which is what "someone" emoting is doing.  Once again, in no way should a 'someone' be emoting all the time unless they are doing something that would be noticed.  If they wish to be all sneaky then use think.

[crymerci]

Why?  If it is there on the screen then they can see it.  Should they elect not to - all the power to them but it is their perogative to note it.  If a 'someone' is doing open emotes - then I expect they want to be noticed.

The player can see it. That doesn't mean the character can. It's up to the player to look at the emote and decide whether or not theeir character would see it and take note.

Sometimes yes.  Especially if they are obvious about doing something - which is what "someone" emoting is doing.  Once again, in no way should a 'someone' be emoting all the time unless they are doing something that would be noticed.  If they wish to be all sneaky then use think.

I agree that they shouldn't be emoting all the time, since one of the tenets of being hidden is not calling attention to oneself. However, especially in a crowded environment, as most public places in Zalanthas are, people can be periperally aware that something is happening nearby without knowing exactly who or what is happening. There have been some fine examples of such hidden emotes in this thread and others. IMO using only 'think' all the time borders on twinkishness, as it never gives the other person a chance to see you unless they scan regularly, which someone would probably think was twinkish.

Oh, and a side-note in response to an earlier post: look may not echo when hidden, but failed peeks do. It's kind of a creepy echo, too.

[Cenghiz]

Someone grins as he walks a step further.

>scan

NO! This IS twinkish! How can you see if the code itself says you can't see?! (Someone, it says). If I emote stepping on a branch or knocking down a seat, OK it means you may sense it. If I emote moving under a torch, you may emote seeing a change in shadows then scan. Do you want all thieves to type sneak,w,hide, steal coins <bla>, e? NO? Then please respect 'someone' emoters. You, guest... Your opinion is NOT important. That's the rule, 'someone' emotes are shown because someone may want to draw attention by chuckling in his RP. Not for 'someone' scanner twinks.
The code may give you advantages sometimes when it's twinkish. You may throw daggers to some sentinel NPC's all the day. You may draw all scrabs to guards  in gates. You may cook without fire. You may craft stones without even a dagger. Do all these also look sensible to you? Think of it, you may do these codewise.
Then... Try looking and that 'someone' or grin back at him. You won't be able to. You can't point him codewise. So... You may see him but not address him eh?

>say -chuckling I sense someone's grinning at me...

Is this the solution for you? Read the docs about roleplaying in Allanak. Please read them and don't ruin our RP.

Cenghiz who wants to emote while hiding.

[Bestatte]

I think a great solution to this would be a couple of added echoes to taverns.

>Someone pads out the door, their hood pulled close over their head.

>Flickers from the lamp on the western wall cast dancing shadows over the crowd as someone passes by.

>With a hurried gait, someone walks by the round, blue-painted table and disappears into the crowd.

Let's see how many people start scanning when they find out that these "someones" are nothing more than coded scripts. Remember, if it's truly in character for your character to scan every time "someone" comes by, you will scan EVERY time someone comes by. Even if it's just a coded script and not actually a PC or animated NPC.

If you're not willing to make a fuss scanning or responding to EVERY "someone" regardless of its source, then you need to reconsider your character's actions. If he is facing EAST, then a "someone" emoting about his movements on the WEST side of the room should have absolutely -no- effect on you whatsoever.

If your character is being lectured by a Templar, I'm guessing it would be a VERY bad idea to suddenly turn away from the Templar and start paying attention to some shadow moving around the room.

If your character is drunk, chances are he won't see his own hand in front of his face, let alone "someone" lurking in the corner.

On the other hand, if "someone" is looking you over, or brushing by your clothes, or whispering in your ear, then you have the option of noticing it or not - depending on what you're doing at the time. You might only notice a sudden breeze ruffling your hair, or you might immediately reach to check your pockets because you're paranoid and ANY movement too close to you is a suspected stealin filthy 'rinthi elf.

Pay attention to your surroundings. Pay attention to YOUR own location within those surroundings. And act - react - appropriately and responsibly to the environment and your place within it.

[Angela Christine]

I think a great solution to this would be a couple of added echoes to taverns.

>Someone pads out the door, their hood pulled close over their head.

>Flickers from the lamp on the western wall cast dancing shadows over the crowd as someone passes by.

>With a hurried gait, someone walks by the round, blue-painted table and disappears into the crowd.

Woo, I agree!  And, if possible, could these replace the one about a VNPC vomiting on a coded table?  Most people that don't want to deal with being vomited on just avoid that table now.   :roll:  Maybe a virtual table could be vomited upon?

Anyway, I think it is usually cheesy to stand and scan everytime you see a "someone" out of the corner of your eye.  Sometimes I'll even ignore someone shadowing me poorly, because the streets are crowded enough that it is plausible that the follower could just be going in the same direction as me.  

As a rule of thumb I'll usually wait until I see 3 suspicious echos before I take action.  Even then, the old stand-and-scan may not be the most appropriate action.  If scanning could be done sitting down, then maybe I'd do it, but if I'm busy warming my ass on a barstool and enjoying an ale I don't want to stand up and look around the room.  At this point I might emote glancing around suspiciously and pulling the ties on my containers a little tighter (and code wise make sure all my closeable containers are closed).  If I am already standing up I'm more likely to scan, but not if I'm sitting or resting.

AC

[God]

Maybe a virtual table could be vomited upon?

Hmm, virtual crowds that can't be listened to, now virtual tables that can't be sat on? You're joking, right?  

[EvilRoeSlade]

I agree with Sancho.  Sure, he came off as a complete and utter madman, but I like that in a person.

If you emote when you are hidden, what you are basically doing is giving people OOC knowledge that they have no right to possess.  On a related note, I really don't trust anybody that I don't know personally, not to abuse OOC knowledge.  Hell, just yesterday somebody suggested that my character might be a thief because HE ISN'T GOOD AT FIGHTING.  Of course, this was in a clan where I pretty much expect that type of behavior, but even so it doesn't give me surges of hope for the playerbase at large.

By no means do I think that by not emoting am I failing to enrich the Role-Playing atmosphere of the world.  Why?  Because I'm doing more than my fair share of enrichment by stealing from you in a place such as the bazaar or a seedy tavern where you ICly might expect to be stolen from.

[sancho]

- - You agree with a madman like me? Well... then I would say my seeds of evil have blossumed into bloss- (damn, can't think of a homonym!!!)-ums of evil!

ZALANTHAS IS MINE! *thunderclap* GNA HA HAHA HAHA HAHAHA!!!

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