Common sparring area

[barefoot]

there should be a common sparring area in each of the major cities where people from any guild could come and have friendly sparring matches and test their skills against others.  There could even be betting...

[John]

Welcome to Armageddon barefoot.

That's a terrific idea IMO. I only ever thought of that idea when I thought of how a boxing clan would work. Although I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible. It's already implemented after a fashion with the Arena.

I'm not too sure what the rules are concerning the arena but I THINK someone said on the GDB one time that it's possible to not become a gladiator and find a Templar and ask them to let you and person X fight in the arena. However I don't know if it's to the death, to first blood, to someone giving up or to anything you want. People are also wary about talking to Templars so AFAIK it doesn't happen often.

I can't see any reason not to implement an automised version of this (sort of like the meeting room code we currently have with taverns) except that most PK limited H&S muds have similar systems and it might give newbies the wrong impression.

In fact this gave me a few ideas. It could be made that at certain hours of the day there are fights in the arena. So you want to fight with person X (it wouldn't be so much sparring, as fighting) then you go up to the NPC and say "I'd like to fight with person X to the death/till someone gives up" the NPC says "please wait in the waiting room until time X". Then before the fight an NPC that is permanently set up in the Gaj announces that Person X and Y are going to be fighting in the arena at time Z. This would make Arena fights MUCH more common and from the descriptions of the arena rooms it gives the impression that fights are always being held.

If at a set time there aren't any PCs slotted to fight, then you could have a few NPCs have it out with scripted emotes to be thrown out. How it would work is there would be a list of random names and a list of random NPCs. The NPCs are spawned similar to the way they are now, with their stats being random, a name is selected at random so one week Biff the Gith might be fighting, whereas next week Biff the Halfling is fighting.

An automated betting system could also be created (which I imagine wouldn't be too difficult) that let's you bet on either PCs or NPCs. This wouldn't stop PCs from betting amongst each other and would encourage people to let their characters to create gambling addictions

All IMO *plink plink*

[mansa]

Well, in some of the major cities....there are.

It is called the Arena.  If you have a spout with someone, and you want to settle it man to man (or woman to woman), then you have to get in contact with someone who owns that arena, and set up a time.


Or, you could just go outside the city into the wastes.


Remember, these are -real- people in the world we are creating.  There are no Skill Percentages.  The object of the game is NOT to kill the black vestric floating on the space platform.

[Angela Christine]

there should be a common sparring area in each of the major cities where people from any guild could come and have friendly sparring matches and test their skills against others.  There could even be betting...

I agree, except for two words: sparring accident.  If you make it "ok" to start a fight here, it also has to be legal for someone to die in that fight, because stupid accidents happen -- just ask anyone who has ever been in a clan with a sparring area.  The problem is that some of these accidents are not accidents.  It isn't difficult for someone to "accidentally" use their regular weapon instead of a sparring weapon, I've seen it happen by accident so I'm sure it could happen on purpose.  It is also possible for other people to join in an on-going sparring match, any number of people using any kind of weapons.  Hell, a single experienced warrior could easily kill a newbie (of any guild) with sparring weapons or bare hands, no trickery required.

In a clan there is someone in charge of regulating the bouts, someone responsible when things go wrong.  If you kill someone while sparring, even if it really is an accident, there will be consequences.  In an open sparring area, like an area outside the gates, there is no one in charge and no one to prevent unfair bouts.

AC

[Freman Scum]

I remember one tabletop rp I played where there was this bar with a fighting pit.  Anyone could challenge anyone.

There were several different types of fights: First blood, chicken out, pass out, and death.

Both sides agreed to what type of fight it was, and if you changed your mind mid fight, all the other people in the bar "took care of it."  The bartender ran a betting ring on the fights, but anyone could walk up to anyone and say "Five gold on half orc."

[Z]

I really like the idea of a coded betting system in the arena(s). Letting PC's in without templar / immortal assistance could get kind of sketchy, I'd have to give that one more thought. But something like "bet 200 bob" in the arena stands before a randomized fight would be nifty and add something to the environment. To my memory, there is coded betting in other places, so I think expanding that a bit would be great.

-Master Z, too lazy to log on.

[Sakra]

If something similar to this gets put in, don't forget some of us have gladiators, and we should be able to fight too. I don't know how that would be scheduled, since glads don't challenge each other, but it allows PC's to bet on the outcome.

[Callisto]

I remember one tabletop rp I played where there was this bar with a fighting pit.  Anyone could challenge anyone.

There were several different types of fights: First blood, chicken out, pass out, and death.

I think something like that would be ideal in a place like Liurs Outpost or Red Storm - both seem to have settings suited to that sort of entertainment. I can just see the Kuraci offering a prize of a thousand coin to anyone who can beat their champion in the pit... doesn't Liurs have a fighting pit already? I remember there being something about it a while back, but that was it...

[Cenghiz]

I would answer but I will first go to the city center to do a little sparring with a rifle and plastic bullets...
......
Hey ARM is just like the real world. But it's... harder. So in real world, there aren't public places outdoors to train warfare. Never there was. So go 'rynth and start killing rats, I'm waiting for you there with three elves and a psionic defiler mul.

[crymerci]

I think this would be a great idea for a business for someone to open. You charge each pair of contestants an entry fee, say 60 'sid, and pay the winner a prize, say 50 'sid. But this is only a small part of the profits from the place because you'd run the bets as well as serve food and beverage.

The diminishing returns of prizes vs. entry fees would hopefully discourage people from creating pit-fighters for the sole purpose of working their combat skillz in the ring, instead of joining a clan or learning by killing things. However, if someone was really dedicated to the pit-fighter concept, they could invest in it.

Oh and to keep the fights fair, I say you strip each contestant of their armor, weapons, and hidden pockets, and make them wear a loincloth or a singlet or something. I think that would also tend to bring more spectators in.   :roll:

[Barzalene]

I think that crymerci's idea is particularly attractive if it were kind of an underground concern. So, that it happened under the eye of the powers that be. This would give it an additional subversive edge.

However, I admit to being big on subversive.

[Stroker]

Cenghiz, remember that this Armageddon isn't quite like the real world. But I'm sure that in a harsh environment such as Zalanthas fighting pits would fit in well. However, I think that the use of the present Arenas should be expanded.

I like a Fighting Pit idea better than a Communal Sparring room. Especially the way crymerci described it. Though I imagine the amount of "fairness" as far as armor, poison, weapons and whatnot goes, would depend on how subversive the pit was. You take a rinth pit (End of an alleyway or somesuch) It's probably a no holds barred, all equipment thing. Wheras a fighting pit at the Gaj would be loincloth and "rented" weapons from the Gaj.

[creeper386]

Hey ARM is just like the real world. But it's... harder. So in real world, there aren't public places outdoors to train warfare. Never there was. So go 'rynth and start killing rats, I'm waiting for you there with three elves and a psionic defiler mul.

Okay. First of all, Zalanthas combative nature is probably right up there with the worst our Earth has to offer. It's not a nice place. Now, your saying there aren't public places to train warfare... Depends what you mean by warfare, but a place to fight publicly, rather it be a dual to the death or a wrestling match was quite common in Earth's history.

During times of troubles. Whole villages were being trained right out in the city square or a nearby field. I think this practice kind of fell out only recently and thats do to the technology thats involved with warfare now of days.

Now currently, there are public places to commit all sorts of harm on another person, although most of it's under friendly circumstances. We have boxing rings. We have tons of people who practice martial arts, wrestling, boxing. There are plenty of people who practice all sorts of different weapon styles. If you've watched some of the more competitive groups, these people can come out of a single fight with a broken leg or arm because of a wooden stick they used as a sword.

Basically, thats all I can think of right now. I'm sure it's a small touch on how humans do "war" on each other. Most of this is only in the US. Perhaps we have more time to spend on frivilous things, but it's doubtful that we are still the only people that practice fighting skills as such.

Creeper who is now done and would like to thank anyone who read part of this.

[Angela Christine]

Basically, thats all I can think of right now. I'm sure it's a small touch on how humans do "war" on each other. Most of this is only in the US. Perhaps we have more time to spend on frivilous things, but it's doubtful that we are still the only people that practice fighting skills as such.

There are also Paintball and Laser Tag ranges, which could be considered "war" training of a sort.  The differance being that as long as you are wearing your goggles it is difficult to be seriously hurt by the weapons, unless someone walks up to you hand hits you with their paintball rifle.    Some people consider certain video games to be training for war, they say some of them are similar to what armed forces actually use as training.  Again, nobody gets hurt during this training, except for the occasional case of video gamer's thumb or carpel tunnel syndrome.  So far no rubber bullets, but who knows what those crazy guys in marketing will come up with next?

AC

And think about Airsoft too, some gun-wielding organizations actually use that stuff to train.

But again, that's recreation, not skills for life. But now that I think about it more, considering what Creeper said, an institution like that for sparring and fighting and whatnot. You pay some and get to use a ring for a while, maybe someone'll hold a class every once in a while... etc.

[Eternal]

Isn't that the Byn?

[Anonymous]

Isn't that the Byn?

Yeah, the Byn sans the daily regimine, the poop scooping, early rising and the regular trips to get buttfucked by gith or hop off of the shield wall.

[Angela Christine]

Isn't that the Byn?

Yeah, but the Byn also has rules.  Sometimes you want to run out and kill a scrab, just for the hell of it, and the Byn won't let you do that.

AC

[Swordsman]

IMO a common sparring area works against the gritty feel of the game world. Why? Because it basically means that any two people can hop into a sparring ring and basically spar at a pretty high level of trust without ever knowing each other (ICly). It'd promote a 'corny game' feel instead of a 'real world' feel. In the real world, I doubt you'd see people sparring people they didn't trust. If you spar a fellow villager while you're both preparing to repel the evil overlord and his legions, you actually trust that villager a lot because both your homes/families are at stake if someone cops out. It'd be totally different going into a big city and sparring someone you'd never met before. Of course, if you're in a fighting school or merc company, that's different ... you might not know the other guy yet, but there's this big, mean sergeant hovering nearby to seriously smack anyone who plays up.

That brings up something else: in some cultures from RL history, fighting was a very serious thing because by fighting someone (in a non-lethal match) you could very well learn some new tactics that you didn't know before. So, fighting was something you did sparingly because any time you did it, you risked giving away knowledge to a potential enemy (though they might be 'friendly' now). Let's say you want your PC to spar with someone else, but you don't want to let on how good you are because you're planning to fool that other guy into thinking he's better than you so you can assassinate him later. You just can't do this right now because when any PC fights, it's 'to the max.' So, enter a common sparring area and people will know how good you really are (or aren't, heh). This would IMO cut down on a lot of bluffing and get people thinking more about how good their PCs are code-wise. Obviously, it is important how skilled code-wise your PC is, but I think a common sparring area would just keep people (newbies particularly) thinking more about code than about RP.

The bottom line: realistically, you wouldn't spar someone you didn't trust or who wasn't under some obligation (like being in the same clan). A common sparring area would make for a more fun game for some people, maybe, but at the expense of realism because it'd just promote OOC thinking over IC thinking. All IMO.

Swordsman

[EvilRoeSlade]

As an aside, one thing you can do to drop your characters combat potential is use a weapon that he's not familiar with.  I bet your assassin won't do so hot in sparring if he uses axes.  In fact, once I purposely threw a fight that way.

[LoD]

I agree with Swordsman.

I believe the desire for a 'common sparring area' stems more from an OOC desire to be able to practice your skills rather than an IC request for something the game is lacking.

The type of problems I see with such a system are:

:arrow: No enforced training times.
           
            Players would fight as often as they felt like it.  In other clans
            where daily sparring is accepted and allowed, there are strict
            rules about when, where and how.  This would not likely not
            exist under this proposed system, or it'd be the Byn.

:arrow: No enforced training rules or supervision.

            No one's going to be there making sure accidents don't happen
            and while accidents DO happen even when there is supervision,
            I don't believe an open forum of practicing backstab, sap and
            potentially attacking other PC's that -are- practicing would be a
            good idea for the game.

:arrow: It does not add to the game world.

            The T'zai-Byn adds a sparring opportunity, but it also provides
            a useful and IC entity capable of interacting and dealing with the
            public, getting involved in quests and providing mercenary RP
            for those people interested in a gritty, blue-collar way.  Some
            sparring chamber that owes nothing to no one would not foster
            any of these things.  In fact, the only thing it would foster is a
            focus on skills - which would be a bad thing.

I don't have a problem with someone working over a period of time to try and set up an IC organization like the Byn that allows another sparring opportunity, but I would like to see it hold many of the same restrictions and RP guidelines that any other clan would have.  That, of course, would bring up the point - what is different and needed about YOUR training facility that it warrants leeching players from another established clan.

As for sparring elsewhere, it is definitely possible.  I've had three different clans that sparred outside of the city walls almost every RL day because there wasn't a spot provided.  That's just how things go.

Just my thoughts.

-LoD

[Cenghiz]

Ah Creeper... They are not PUBLIC, in the center of the town allowed to be used by anyone... That would be eh... stupid because of the same problems which would arise in the real world. Accidentally(!) killing would be so often.
But hiring a ring? Would be fine.


_________________________________________________________
Cenghiz who is the relative of Cenghiz Khan even who hadn't sparring areas in public.

[crymerci]

What if it was only unarmed combat? Would that alleviate the concerns about lack of realism, people using it to learn weapons skills, combat accidents, etc.? Then the only skills we'd be talking about here are kick and subdue (I think).

[creeper386]

Ah Creeper... They are not PUBLIC, in the center of the town allowed to be used by anyone... That would be eh... stupid because of the same problems which would arise in the real world. Accidentally(!) killing would be so often.

Acctually in the past a public area was quite common, and having a death in them wasn't uncommon, and more often weren't accidental. These types of things were instituted to solve disputes normally. Trial by Arms was a VERY common thing and normally done in a public inviroment. The government type people knew things like this was going to happen and they were smart enough to snatch it up for it's entertainment value. Although commonly they were only used for unarmed fighting to determine small things, but it wasn't uncommon for things to get deadly when it comes to important things.

Now, I think you people are going too far on the idea of "SPARRING." If there was something like this, there most likely would be IC restrictions, people who own the building or land this is on. Heck, could even be ran by the templarate or militia, or just an addition to the arena like was suggested. It isn't about raising skills and sparring at all. If you think about it, people that want to do that already do that. Just go find an out of the way place and spar. This would be in the public, your not hidden. Even if it's just an empty square that the templarate said you can settle your disputes here, people can still watch it. If people are playing unrealistically, it can be dealt with.

For the most part, I think something like this would be more realistic instead of people getting into a heated arguement then troopsing off hand and hand out the gates where it's alot more dangerous then the original fight would be. Or the whole thing getting stuck on hold, and the two people get along untill they find a templar that has the ability and the time to open up the arena. In most low technology societies, a place for people to just duke it out was common, and considering Zalanthas tend to get into lots of fights and there normally is lots of conflict, I don't see how it wouldn't be common there either. Specially considering they also have arenas an such for public entertainment and all that. SHRUG.

I'm done; Creeper

[Angela Christine]

Hmm, if a major concern is people taking an OOC interest in the area to max out their combat skills, why not make it a room where skills can not improve?  If you want to spend 7 hours out of every 9 sparring because it is what your character would do, fine, but you can't max out your skills doing it.  That would leave it useful for settling disputes or putting on a show for your friends, but useless for skill maxing.

AC

[crymerci]

Good idea, AC.

Another possibility: only have the establishment open on certain days and times, or only have the ring open to PCs at certain times. Amateur night, if you will.