I dont get it..

[HoD]

For the first three months of the new game, there will be no karma requirements. At the end of the three month period, we will re-evaluate the need for karma.

(paraquoting) Wont let karma opens open on current game to keep RP levels high

- both quoted by staff members.

Are first three months of the new game are going to be beta testing for bugs? After the three months are the PCs going to be wiped? Or will we continue to play them?

I ask because ARM1 is about to be put to rest, and the two quotes above seem to contradict themselves - If the goal is to keep the RP standards high by not opening karma races and skills in the current game - why allow us to "go wild" in the new game? I for one, would much rather be given the chance to play a guild/race in ARM1 before it goes, then to do so on ARM2, I'd much rather we be judged now, and have the rules set in stone before ARM2 opens. I dont know about everyone else, but the idea of being given a new toy in full - and then having its head removed if people play with it incorrectly just....sucks. I'd rather we all get judged by a system we are comfortable with (ARM1) then somthing new (ARM2)

Do other people feel the same way? Would you much rather see the karma slots opened on ARM1? There is so much I want to play, but cant because I lack the Karma, and the most dishearting thing is that on the current path - it wont happen, it never will. I will never get to play PCs I have always wanted to play.

This might be key to the lower numbers also, At least for me - i cant bring myself to play a PC that (all ego and BS aside and yes -I know the most unexpected PCs can turn into the most fun PCs) - I dont want to play during the final days. I cant bring myself to pour energy into a PC option that I can play currently. I would much rather pour energy into a PC option I have coverted like a love starved school boy during the final days. And because I cant, im happier to wait for ARM2, then play ARM1 simply because its eaiser on me.


Im not asking for all guilds and classes to be opened, but perhaps the first few points or even all but the guilds/races that may damage the ending plot -  if it gets out of hand kill the feed, and deem us judged. If not we get to play the PCs we have wanted too during the final days. And, call me a sissy but it would be good closure. Unrequited love sucks. Happy endings all round.

[Tarx]

Special app (in the current game)?

I think they want to test all of the new game out when it opens...which makes sense, even if they won't let you experience all of the current game without any karma requirements.

[Maybe42or54]

Karma restrictions wont be lifted for the continuance of this Arm, but they wont be put into effect until after three months of the new game to give everyone a feel of the new races and new game.

[Raesanos]

We are also interested in seeing how the game operates without karma.  The karma system is not perfect (if you're a good player without karma you know this already) so reworking the way classes and races are offered may come at the end of the 3-month period rather than the reinstatement of the system as we see it now.  Its possible what we'll see is that karma works great and put it back into place.  Its also possible that over the 3 months none of our fears about karmalessness manifested and we choose to remain that way.

[manonfire]

I can tell you how it'll operate.

Code Select Expand

A mul sorceror has arrived from the west.

Laffing in a way that makes `amos scared, a mul sorceror says to you, in sirihish:
"i just branched. cool huh??"


Maybe I'm just a 'glass half-empty' kinda guy.

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

I honestly think the karma system added a whole new layer of interest to Armageddon. Ever since I started playing there was this whole tier of classes/races that would open up down the road, and every time they did it was like Christmas! I personally hope karma stays, if for nothing else, at least for how it can inspire players (and the imagination) with a sense of mystery. It's something to work towards during a multi-year Armageddon career, just when you're getting used to all your options, you're potentially hit with a whole new angle of play.

[Jherlen]

I'm with the flaming man on this one. I don't see how a karmaless system would work and hold the consistency and roleplaying standard we have now. I really hope there are -some- restrictions in place to prevent any old newbie from coming over and rolling up a sorcerer or psionicist just to use the kewl 1337 skillz. (Anyone remember Jarod550?)

[Nao]

The question here is whether the 'gaps' in power are even going to be as large in the new game as right now. If there's no muls, sorceres and mages that are extremely powerful right from the start, karma might not be needed.

[Gimfalisette]

The wuestion here is whether the 'gaps' in power are even going to be as large in the new game as right now. If there's no muls, sorceres and mages that are extremely powerful right from the start, karma might not be needed.

That's not the only issue with karma classes currently, though. Magick is supposed to be rare and feared. How will it be rare when everyone is playing a magicker? Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I fully expect that, without karma, at least 75% of characters will be magickal to some extent. (Assuming there is some kind of multi-classing as has been put forth.)

[Spud]

Does no one trust the players?

*sigh*

[Son of a Gortok]

I agree with Raesanos. Nobody here except maybe the staff knows for sure if magick will still be feared and rare, if there will be muls and psionicists that can blow your head up with a maul or their mind, respectively, or if our fears of a game without karma will even have a base. It's best to let arm2 run without karma just to see how it all goes, and adjust the system when problems occur.

[Raesanos]

If you're very confident that the quality of roleplay in the game will degrade considerably without karma, please have faith that the staff will notice this and respond appropriately.  This is an experiment, not a decision.

[Dakkon Black]

I'm sure like Raisin-O just stated that they're as worried that mul sorcs or thier equivalent will be pulling baobab-esque hiliarity all over the place.

I see the need to test out all the classes etc for the staff. But on the same hand, I am a huge fan of Karma. It does keep things much more interesting at times as well as give us as players some way to set ooc goals in terms of personal rp development.

The only real crappy point will be the noobs who now know every single starting spell/skill of every class since they just went through 40 chars in the first month.

Have to go shower now,

-Dakkon

[Folker]

How would Arm2 maintain the rarity of magick if everyone are playing magickers?

Well, this is a problem that exists already 'now'', since after one and a half decade, a 'great' deal of people unlocked many magic inclined classes, and so it's pretty common to find your chara literally surrounded by mages.

How would karmaless system be any different to what it was when Armageddon first started (Basing this on descriptions of others). That Mantis used to be sipping ale in Allanak, and the airways needed traffic control due to all the flying mages.

The beginnings of Arm1 lacks a certain thing that Arm2 will have. That thing is ... the players. The seasoned, veteran, (idiots who managed to play this game for 2-12 years=)) who will be the core of the playerbase in Arm2. The people who rewarded with karma or not, will not let their own roleplaying level fall.

That said, I personally prefer the karma system. One of the things which arm2's experiment system will not be able to emulate, is experience. I mean that now if someone who managed to get so high in karma they can play Sorcs, and creates one, he will not be a bumbling idiot even if all of his skills are inept. Though I think I heard they start on reasonable level. In any case, when I meet some extremely high level karma, I know the player behind him is experienced, and that I can relay on it, and be certain he will not do some jarring mistakes that I'd kindly forgive a newbie or someone who just got a new karma and began playing a higher level role.

But in Arm2, there'll be a whole number of truly fearsome entities that are completely inept. And if I start a warrior, and then in passage of a month, he would end up killing dozens of sorcs, he just wont keep the same amount of fear towards magick. He'll start taming them and putting them in a pen or something.

[Hymwen]

Does no one trust the players?

To be perfectly honest (and elitist), there's a large portion of the playerbase that I don't trust in matters like this one. Not that I believe people are evil twinks, but almost every new player I've known, including myself, wanted to try out the restricted races/guilds very early because they looked really interesting and/or powerful. There's no doubt in my mind that if the next version of the game has a similar guild/race structure where some are vastly more powerful than others, an obscene amount of players will choose those options even if they aren't ready for it. Practically everyone has something they wish they could play, and imagine if they all could.

I'm not against experimenting with a system of no restrictions, and we don't know if the second version has a similar imbalance that requires a karma system, but if it does then I'm stubbornly claiming that we need some measure of control. There are a fair amount of people who play just to become powerful and kill people, and luckily the karma/special app system will for the most part prevent them from access to the guilds and races that allow them to cause extreme havoc. Friends don't let twink friends play muls.

So yeah, let's try it out, let's see how it works without restrictions. I know the staff will keep an eye on things and make sure the game suits their views on how it should be. I just hope that the playerbase during that time will be big enough to support the game even if half of us are playing the archetype sit-in-a-cave sorcerer. Like someone else said in some other thread, the first impression is extremely important, not only for new players but for retired players who are considering a comeback for the new version. If what they see is utter chaos and deserted towns because everyone is playing a character who is outlawed by default, please be ready to make some quick adjustments and corrections.

[Nao]

While I like the karma system, I think a huge part of the fascination of playing restricted classes/races comes from them being restricted.

Sure, everyone always wanted to play this or that, but why not let them play it once, then move on to something else?

[Dakkon Black]

There's no doubt in my mind that if the next version of the game has a similar guild/race structure where some are vastly more powerful than others

And I for one would be disgusted if it wasn't this way. I don't want equality or balance. That's not real at all. I've had mage karma for over four years now, and I've played just as many mundanes as mages. Someties the most fun is when you are the underdog.

[spawnloser]

I am NOT worried about the number of total magickers around at a time.  You know why?  This isn't a low-magick world.  Look at the history.  What have been Tuluk's major problems?  Elementals destroying much of it, the Dragon showing up to battle with Muk and an army lead by sorcerous twats that comes to conquer it.  Mostly magick there, huh?

I am worried about newbies that have little to no comprehension of the game world rolling up a powerful magicker and running around to fireball everyone...but most characters really aren't powerful enough to do something like that straight out the gate anyway, so I'm not too worried.  It mostly goes back to us losing much of the mystery about how those more powerful races/classes work.  Of course, they may be 'balancing' the races and classes in some fashion too.  Keep in mind that we are probably going to be losing races that are too Athasian due to IP issues, so the replacements may not be so divergent in stats.

[Hymwen]

I am worried about newbies that have little to no comprehension of the game world rolling up a powerful magicker and running around to fireball everyone...but most characters really aren't powerful enough to do something like that straight out the gate anyway, so I'm not too worried

I'm not that worried about powerful magickers either, they're not that immensely powerful to begin with... hell, a brand new player probably would have trouble figuring out how the magick system even works. What I'm more worried about is the chance that the game will have races similar to muls and half-giants who can kill people in one or two blows right out of the box. A player coming straight from a h&s mud doesn't necessarily know that they're not supposed to clear the bazaar for loot.

[Fathi]

Well, the staff looks over character applications for a reason. If a guy who's obviously come straight out of a hack and slash rolls up a half-giant, it'll show in their application--writing style, bio, personality, etc.

It's as simple as clicking 'deny' instead of 'accept.'

I had a character denied because I picked a keyword that I didn't know wasn't allowed in sdescs, wasn't the end of the world because I knew my character concept was solid.

But if someone rolls up a half-giant elkros with a badly-written application that shows little understanding of roleplaying in general or just roleplaying in Arm (it can be obvious if someone's never read the helpfiles before apping, for example), the staff does have the power to deny it.

And why shouldn't they? Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather have a character denied than be allowed to play one without realising something in my original concept was fundamentally flawed.

[jmordetsky]

I think it's worth a shot. It's only three months, likely the first three months will need some kinks ironed out any how.

[mansa]

And, we can always do another pwipe...

[Fathi]

I'm sure we'll all die from fun and creative code bugs anyway. I, for one, am looking forward to it.

"Uhhh, Sanvean, I tried to summon a shadow gurth and instead I ended up on top of a mountain and speak Cavilish. Help?"

[Yokunama]

Does no one trust the players?

*sigh*

I, for one, don't trust everyone.

[WarriorPoet]

I busted my ass for a long time to -earn- the karma I have and I'm very proud that the staff trusts me that much. It kind of saddens me to think that Joe Hakanslash will be able to walk into Arm2's chargen on the same footing as me.

But, that is my only complaint. It'll be neat to learn the new races and cultures, and as far as abuse goes, I trust the staff to come down like a ton of shit on people who violate their trust.

-WP

[LiquidShell]

I busted my ass for a long time to -earn- the karma I have and I'm very proud that the staff trusts me that much. It kind of saddens me to think that Joe Hakanslash will be able to walk into Arm2's chargen on the same footing as me.

I really feel that these types of people, myself included, will primarily weed one another out, think of some -- hellish apocalyptic battle of twinks, we wont need another cataclysm, they'll do it alone.  Another thing is that most of your power gamers tend to be subordinates, or soloist, they can't create anything on their own.  So you'll most likely be directing them with your vision instead of being forced to comply with their own.  I personally am not worried with the lack of karma for the first three months or forever if the imms see it fit, if people abuse what they're given it will no doubt be taken away.  

I for one am going to make a mad dash for the strongest personality when arm 2 blows open, and defend it fiercely, I think since we have a chance to make our own environment who better than one of the more dedicated players to shape it, plus when you have a good rper at the helm it tends to elevate all of the other players to the higher level.

P.S. WP as our dedicated leader, you'll need to comply with the will of your peoples, first off I want the PIT, and lots and lots of brothels! Whores make the blood thirsty warriors, and savages easily manipulated.

[Ghost]

I for one am going to make a mad dash for the strongest personality when arm 2 blows open, and defend it fiercely

And you will cry like a little school girl when he dies in two seconds in a nearly meaningless fashion with an ooc like "PWN3TT!!111"

In a more serious answer: my main concern is, if the karma-nonkarma guild distinction in the amount of power a character can wield will be similar to that of arm1, we might have a sort of chaos at the beginning of the game.  It sucks when you lose a character, it sucks worse if it is a dissatisfactory death, worse if it is dissatisfactory and there was pretty much nothing could do, worse if you are led to believe it was ooc driven..

Currently, even though the basic idea behind the karma system was to distinguish the guilds/races that are -harder- to play, I am not really sure that is the case anymore.  At least for most of the guilds.  To give a simple example, being hunted down and hated is not much of a problem for a magicker after he hits 3 days, because then the hunters become prey most of the time anyway.  And if there is not a hunter around anymore and the magicker is bored, this might end up being a danger to people minding their own business.

That is currently my main concern, that since even new players will start the game with pretty much anything, I would hate to see a well developed character being killed by a branched out sorcerer, for the reason being, because he can.  I would rather prefer, for the first three months, only non-karma guilds being approved, and for anything more you would need to special app.

That is my opinion after all.

[Malken]

Characters will drop like flies within the first three months, anyway. It might or might not be from other characters, but also from the fact that no one will know what to expect, where it's safe and dangerous, what can get you killed or not, etc...

I sense a massacre anyway within the first three months, because people will want to see the new world, will want to explore, will take risks, even calculated ones in a world you have no idea about will be deadly..

If you decide to be a tavern dweller on your first character and not take any risks, then I seriously doubt that anyone will, within a month, be able to develop a sorceror-type character, know where he can hide, know all the dangers that surround him to develop his powers, etc...

On the other hand, human warrior nobody #6 might be the first one to discover a poison that no one is aware of yet and use it to kill a few well established characters until the others realize it and start seeking out an antidote.. So you just have to expect to lose your well established characters at first.

[Medena]

I think that the consensus among both players and imms has always been that while the karma system might be flawed it was far better than having nothing at all to ensure the integrity of some roles.   My apprehensions of a game without it or some other kind of system are less about inexperienced players rampaging around on killing sprees and more to do with roles being RP'ed inappropriately and in such a way to be detrimental to the IC environment.

I assume that the decision to make the first three months free of karma restrictions is not debatable.  However, perhaps a statement from the imms about the rationale underlying the decision might better help us understand and thereby alleviate our concerns.  I don't recall ever having seen an explanation of the thinking involved with it.  I am not saying that the imms have to justify all their decisions to us but in this case I think it might help a lot.

[fourTwenty]

I think that the consensus among both players and imms has always been that while the karma system might be flawed it was far better than having nothing at all to ensure the integrity of some roles.

I Don't even have any Karma yet and I'm a fan of it. I agree with what Medena said, but somebody fill me in...what exactly is flawed about the current karma system?

Just asking?

[Dalmeth]

Well, all I know is that the staff has repeatedly said that the opening the new game without karma is more of an experiment.  I for one am glad they will be stress-testing the new system.

[jhunter]

I don't have any big fears about it.
I've seen people with karma doing things that made me go: "What the hell? This person has karma of -any- kind?".  And I've known people whose roleplay was very impressive who (from my understanding) had no karma at all.

I think that the way they are doing it to test it out for the first three months is the way to go. The better roleplayers will be able to choose what they would most like to play and really work to set an example for similar roles in the future. The twinkish losers who do stupid shit will learn, die alot, or worst case....get banned.

Another good thing about it is that the staff will get to see each of the types in action and be able to tell much easier what needs tweaking, removal, added,etc.