Regarding the Dwarves of Zalanthas

[SailorMars]

Um. Hi! This is my first post here. I'm sure that's thrilling to know.  :?

So... I've been reading through some different threads on racial RPing. I haven't really dug that deeply, but it seems the Desert Elves are a hot topic lately... Anyway, it would be helpful if someone could explain the place of dwarves in Zalanthas. Of all the immediately playable races, I'm the most hazy on their place, their habits, their qualities, etc.

Here's some Qs I walked away with from reading the dwarf help file: Perhaps because dwarves are only concerned with their focus, other issues take a back seat? Things like their lack of a home town, their lack of clans or tribes, the lack of info on their origins, etc. Do Dwarves have mythology around how they came to be? Do Zalanthan dwarves consider each other brothers and sisters, and hate elves, like a Tolkien dwarf?

I've just offered up a few of aspects of dwarves I'm curious about. Any and all feedback about them relating to the world, and the world relating to them would be splendid.

[John]

Welcome to Armageddon I'm sure you'll really like it here.

Before I help answer your questions on Dwarves, you said you hadn't digged too deep in the documentation, did you find it difficult to find certain information? If so what info and why exactly was it difficult? (just asking because I remember when I first came that I found the docs difficult to search through, but I can't remember why it was so difficult ).

Do Zalanthan dwarves consider each other brothers and sisters, and hate elves, like a Tolkien dwarf?

Comparing Armageddon to Tolkien is very dangerous. To answer your question, yes dwarves do hate elves, but no more then everyone else does. You probably know that elves have a high regard for stealing which causes most (if not all) races to hate them, and will be distrustful of them. So yes, dwarves like humans, do hate elves.

As for whether or not dwarves consider each other to be brothers and sisters is a matter I can't answer because I'm a newbie myself. I will say in the past that I have seen long lived dwarves refer to each other as kin, however I do not know if this is correct roleplay or not.

Perhaps because dwarves are only concerned with their focus, other issues take a back seat?

The short answer is yes. Dwarves are able to do other things not concerning their focus, however when they do this sort of thing, they will constantly be concerned about their focus. When a dwarf meets or does something the first thing they think is "how can this help me with my mission in life?"

However when a dwarf picks his focus it will normally be natural for them to choose whatever their focus is and it will slowly form during their adolescence. Some dwarves do not even know that they have a focus, they just really want to do a task, they will feel like they need to do the task. Other dwarves however will have ceremonies involving focus's, so it all depends on the dwarves.

IMO the average human wouldn't know that dwarves have a focus. Sure they'll know that dwarves tend to be very obsessive and single-minded, however because not all dwarves think "alright X is my focus" then unless a human has met a dwarf who does think "X is my focus", they won't know about it. (hope that makes sense).

I'm the most hazy on their place, their habits, their qualities

Well dwarves were once an enslaved race. However many centuries ago they gained their freedom. The only universal habits or qualities that they would have is their stubborness and focus (whether they realise they have a focus or not). Other then that (AFAIK) there are no universal traits. So one dwarf may be an ale-guzzling miner, while another is an efeminite stripper.

Do Dwarves have mythology around how they came to be?

AFAIK, no they don't. However there aren't any universal mythologies among any of the races. There is a general accepted History among the "civilized" areas of the Known World (i.e. Red Storm, Luirs' Outpost, Allanak and Tuluk) which can be read here however individual tribes are just as likely to have their own mythologies. One tribe might believe that there was never a Dragon and that they were made from dust. Another tribe might believe that the Dragon created them out of his shit. So IMO dwarves would generally have the same mythologies as wherever they live. They might have family mythologies that have been passed down through the generations, however other then that (AFAIK) they don't have any universal mythologies among their race.

Some pages you might want to read are:
Some General Info on dwarves
Information on the Dwarven Language
Detailed documents on Roleplaying dwarves

Hope that helps.

[Cerebus]

You mention reading the helpfiles, but I'm curious if you've also seen the web site information on dwarves as well, which is indexed at: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/dwarf.html

I do not believe the origin of dwarves is well known. Because dwarves tend to think of everything in perspective of how it relates to their focus, they tend to fit well in any society because they will do whatever they need to in order to meet their focus, and are less concerned with things such as their own culture. Because of their single-mindedness and stubborness, dwarves and don't understand and relate with humans quite as well as they do each other. This would probably be the only reason that they sometimes appear to have some sort of brotherhood. They consider humans to be unfocused and flighty, on the other hand. There can be racial hatred towards elves or any other race, as well, but it is not universal. Well, everyone hates elves :)

If you were to play a dwarf as a stubborn, single-minded being who has his mind set on one thing and tends to be absent-minded or neglectful of anything not related to their "focus", then this would be the typical dwarven archetype, although because of the difficulty in playing them, many PC dwarves aren't quite that hard-core. Of course, this is not the entirety of their personality. They have other unique traits just like humans do.

Cerebus

[Plazgoth]

One more thing to remember is that they have absolutely no hair. I would hate to see you get your app rejected because your dwarf has a long beard.  :wink:

[Angela Christine]

One more thing to remember is that they have absolutely no hair. I would hate to see you get your app rejected because your dwarf has a long beard.  :wink:

Yeah, no hair.  Completely hairless.  So no eyebrows, arm hair, leg hair, armpit hair, or any other hair you care to think of.  It's pretty freaky when you think about it.


Anyway, they don't have any distinct culture of their own, beyond their language.  The fact that dwarves start out excellent at their own language but poor at the most common human language may indicate that most dwarves have a strong preferance for speaking their own language and keeping company with their own kind.  


AC

[Vositus]

Heh, sorry but I still cant get over the no-eyelashes thing...

[DwarfLord]

I think we dwarves tend to view humans as lazy Why because humans live for sitting around wasting time talking and such when they should be doing something useful. (Unless of course your focus has something to do with that, but in general) Elves are not to be trusted because their focus is well known. To steal.

My impression about dwarves callin each other "kin" or "blood" is that there are much fewer dwarves than other races. And we all used to be slaves, so its a kind of we used to be oppressed and there are so few of us among all the horrendously thin, weak and lazy folks.

I tend to think that dwarves and dwarves do NOT work well together unless their focuses coincide. It is much easier to convince a human to help you with your goal than it is to convince a dwarf, who is doing his own thing and doesn't give a crap about what you are doing. I think that is why they never form a sizeable community of their own. They are each all heading off on their own little quest.

As for history. There is some player made history. I notice a few dwarves have taken second names, reckoning back. Like Thrain Ironsword. A few others I cannot name, but with similar type names. I don't know if this is a universal trait, but I play it as if it is, at least for important dwarven lineage.

[Tlaloc]

Anyway, they don't have any distinct culture of their own, beyond their language. The fact that dwarves start out excellent at their own language but poor at the most common human language may indicate that most dwarves have a strong preferance for speaking their own language and keeping company with their own kind.

This isn't nessecarially true. There have been dwarven tribes/clans/groups before in the past, which each had thier own cultural quirks. I would state that they are rare, however. Just like humans and elves, I'm sure dwarves would have the natural tendancy to want to group together with others of thier own kind. I would think this would lead to a natural creation of the occasional tribe, clan, or other sort of 'culture'.

I think its also very possible for a group of dwarves to take on a Communal focus. So an entire tribe of wandering dwarves (or most of the tribe) could be focused on 'finding a home', or something. Where sparks would begin to fly, would likely be in the interpretation of said focus...

Which brings us to the next point:

My impression about dwarves callin each other "kin" or "blood" is that there are much fewer dwarves than other races. And we all used to be slaves, so its a kind of we used to be oppressed and there are so few of us among all the horrendously thin, weak and lazy folks.

I personally think this is just a Bad Habbit that has crept up amongst the playerbase. For the same reason that Humans don't go around calling one another 'Brother', 'Kin', and 'Blood', do Dwarves and Elves do the same thing. There is no relation between one total stranger dwarf, and another. In fact, its entirelly possible that two total stranger dwarves might be highly suspicious of one another, since thier foci could be in diametric opposition from one another.

Yes, there might be some sort of empathy that goes on between dwarves due to the fact that they are keenly aware of the full details of this compulsion that drives them. An interesting system of Foci-Back-Scratching might even be created between dwarves (a possible beginning for a Dwarven tribe?) where one dwarf will help another fulfill thier focus, in return for help with her own. I think, however, this is the only place where two dwarves would feel any sort of kinship...the kinship between two people who are obsessive compulsive and anal retentive to the point of rectal-diamond formation.

This isn't to say dwarves hate each other, or don't feel for one another, either. The race propogates itself -somehow-. However, I don't go walking into the Tavern, and start calling Vennant 'Kin', when I haven't even met the guy, either. Later, if we become friends...sure, why not? But untill I reach that level of closeness in our relationship, calling Vennant 'Brother' would probably wierd the guy out just alittle.

This is just -my- point of view, and thats about all I have, for now.

-Tlaloc

[SailorMars]

Firstly, thanks to all for the links and comments...

I'm sure you'll really like it here.

Yes, I'm already woefully addicted.  :?

Before I help answer your questions on Dwarves, you said you hadn't digged too deep in the documentation, did you find it difficult to find certain information?

I found the the website and help files for Arm very robust and helpful, but still couldn't wrap my mind around the dwarves... this thread has already been helpful...

I do not believe the origin of dwarves is well known. Because dwarves tend to think of everything in perspective of how it relates to their focus

This seems like a very important point, and was kind of the impression I was getting from reading...

Yeah, no hair. Completely hairless. So no eyebrows, arm hair, leg hair, armpit hair, or any other hair you care to think of. It's pretty freaky when you think about it.

Hehehe, sounds very convenient if it were only from the shoulders down...  :wink:

I personally think this is just a Bad Habbit that has crept up amongst the playerbase.

Probably a Tolkien influence*, which is what I want to get away from. It might make a very cool help file on the website to do a Tolkien vs. Zalanthan racial profile... as I imagine, unless you're familiar with Dark Sun, that* would be 'baggage' most people carried into Arm... I know it was for me until I started realizing all the differences...

There is a lot of, um, focus in the documentation about dwarven focus. Now, from this thread, I understand just how important it is. Why worry about where you came from, and grouping with others like yourself, when the focus must be completed at all costs?

My next question is: Would dwarves walk up to each other and ask, "What is your focus?" Seems to me a good idea, as I could immediately establish whether my fellow dwarf was going to be of any use to me, and vice versa. If so, how would it be worded in RP? "My life quest is blah blah, what is yours?"

Thanks!

[John]

Would dwarves walk up to each other and ask, "What is your focus?"

No.

It is considered impolite to ask dwarves what their foci are, unless you know them well. However, it is often easy to make a good guess, as that focus will likely dominate most of the conversations the dwarf is ever in.

Also 2 dwarves may have COMPLETELY different foci but be helping each other. For example say Dwarf A's focus is to become the best swordsmith and Dwarf B's focus is to become the best warrior. Dwarf A will learn about making swords and whatnot and Dwarf B might as well. The reason Dwarf B would is because he believes it would help him in learning how to become a better fighter.

don't go walking into the Tavern, and start calling Vennant 'Kin', when I haven't even met the guy

:lol: I nearly spat my drink at the screen! warn us when your gunna say something. Sheeesh.

This is just -my- point of view, and thats about all I have, for now.

Am I the only one whose scared by that comment?  :?

[Cerebus]

Would dwarves walk up to each other and ask, "What is your focus?"

The term Focus is more of an OOC construct, than IC, I believe. Everyone ICly knows that dwarves are highly obsessive. Some people may not know the details, or may just think of them as stubborn and single-minded. Dwarves themselves are probably too busy concentrating on whatever their focus is to think too much about the nature of it. Many would probably not understand or even notice that no one else seems to be interested in the same things.

I personally prefer not to see any specific references to the focus, but instead would rather see people ask more indirect questions. Knowing a dwarf's focus could potentially be a very powerful thing, and while the dwarf in question may not care if you directly ask, I would usually consider it rather impolite. I'd liken it to asking someone playing D&D what their alignment is, although not quite as bad form if you can manage to do it ICly.

Of course, that said, typically you should be able to figure out what a dwarf's focus is just by being around them long enough. If they are so single-minded about something in particular, their behavior and conversation would give you a clue, wouldn't it?

Cerebus

[Tlaloc]

Of course, that said, typically you should be able to figure out what a dwarf's focus is just by being around them long enough. If they are so single-minded about something in particular, their behavior and conversation would give you a clue, wouldn't it?

I think Cerebus hit a key issue with this statement here, and its something I hardly ever see dwarves actually doing in-game. I'm gennerally left really clueless about the exact nature of a dwarves focus, from one instance to the next, and usually have to read the characters background to even get a clue as to what it might be.

I'd like to see dwarves play out thier drive to fulfill thier focus much more. It should become readily apparant to everyone around you (except maybe the really clueless) what your focus is, unless your dwarf has some reason to keep it quiet...and even then, they might be overtly driven to fill out the little steps, while trying to keep thier main goal hidden away.

For example:

I see alot of dwarves with the focus: "To become the greatest warrior in the Known World". All issues regarding originality aside, this can be an alright focus. Gennerally, however, I notice a trend for said Dwarf-warriors to simply get regular jobs as guards, and spend alot of time sparring.

This, to me, seems like half-assing a perfectly good dwarf character. The term 'focus' means exactly that: your dwarf is focused on that one goal, whatever it might be. To that end, because they are so focused, they will obsess over it, and can become detached from the rest of the world as they try and get it.

So, a dwarf with the focus: "To be the greatest warrior in the Known World" would probably not only try to get a job at the best School/military (or schools/militaries) in the Known World, not only would they spend alot of time sparring, but they would be thinking about thier focus during thier Off-time, too.

So when your Byn dwarf who's focused on becomming the greatest warrior in the Known World gets off work, he's still going to be thinking about it. After sparring, over dinner, the dwarf will talk with his friends about what they think are the best fighting techniques, or would talk about the best shots to use against a shieldman, when using two shortswords.

At the bar over an ale, when Vennant asks the dwarf how he's doing, he might mumble something about how he's really worried that he could be wrong in the assumption that kank-mounted cavalry sweep across the left flanks of a large force of gith would lead to a winning outcome due to the giths propensity to use poisons, spears, and the shifting sand dunes creating an instability with the kanks.

In the latrines, as he pops a squat next to a hapless Runner, he might casually start thinking aloud to himself about the best ways to kill a man with your pants around your ankles, and then begin devising a sword-form technique to learn to fight that way because you just never know when you're going to need to get into a fight - and would the Runner kindly help him, while he's here?

In the middle of wild, heated passion with his current Signifigant Other, his mind might begin to wander as he goes over the mistakes he made in during sparring six days ago, and he would begin working out exactly what he did wrong, in detail, and have a full plan of how to correct the problem by the time he's finished. "Was it good for you?" she asks. He replies: "No, fuckin' Sarge hit me three times, can ya beleive tha? THREE TIMES. Teks bloody balls on a gith spear..."

Basically, the point is: Dwarven Foci aren't something that are just there, in the background. They are what the dwarf is actively seeking to fulfill.

This doesn't mean Dwarves are stupid, by any stretch of the imagination. Dwarves can likely be -very- good liars, so long as it fills the purpose of thier Focus. A dwarf focused on freeing the Slaves of Allanak, for example, might be very careful about the things he says around Templars or in genneral around Allanak. His -thinks- on the other hand, could prove otherwise, while the dwarf themself might seem rather benign.

Just a few more thoughts,

[Meep]

In the middle of wild, heated passion with his current Signifigant Other, his mind might begin to wander as he goes over the mistakes he made in during sparring six days ago, and he would begin working out exactly what he did wrong, in detail, and have a full plan of how to correct the problem by the time he's finished. "Was it good for you?" she asks. He replies: "No, fuckin' Sarge hit me three times, can ya beleive tha? THREE TIMES. Teks bloody balls on a gith spear..."

My monitor is all wet from me spraying my drink out now.

:shock:

[John]

This doesn't mean Dwarves are stupid, by any stretch of the imagination. Dwarves can likely be -very- good liars, so long as it fills the purpose of thier Focus.

Then I suggest that you change the racial documentation for dwarves because I was given the impression that dwarves WEREN'T good at being overt.

So Are Dwarves Deceptive and Manipulative?
No. It's a very fine line. Very few dwarves are deceptive. The overwhelming nature of the dwarven focus makes all dwarves very single-minded.

[Angela Christine]

I see alot of dwarves with the focus: "To become the greatest warrior in the Known World". All issues regarding originality aside, this can be an alright focus. Gennerally, however, I notice a trend for said Dwarf-warriors to simply get regular jobs as guards, and spend alot of time sparring.

Bah, that sounds dull to me.  What he ought to do is a bunch of rabble rousing accross the known world, trying to drum up a war.  A war where hundreds of the worlds best warriors will fight, and many of them will die.  If all goes well the dwarf will move up in the rankings from 492nd to 173rd without having to lift a blade.  Then you hire assassins and raiders to ambush other great fighters.  Followed by gathering groups of warriors to track down and kill the best of the raiders and assassins.  Repeat untill all the great warriors are dead, allowing you to become the greatest warrior in the known world through attrition, without being a very good warrior at all.  Then you just need to get a job with the greatest warrior training school, and arrange for the most promising students to have "accidents".   :twisted:

For added challenge, take the "become the greatest warrior" focus but don't take the fighter guild.  A battered pickpocket who has been beaten up by the bigger kids one time too many might focus on becoming the greatest warrior, so that no one in the known world would be able to beat him again.

Or forget about learning to fight and bumping off other fighters, and insted concentrate on trying to find a fabled magick sword that imbues it's flabby owner with the abilities of an unmatched mythical warrior.  By the Power of Greyskull!

AC

[Anonymous]

I personally think this is just a Bad Habbit that has crept up amongst the playerbase. For the same reason that Humans don't go around calling one another 'Brother', 'Kin', and 'Blood', do Dwarves and Elves do the same thing. There is no relation between one total stranger dwarf, and another. In fact, its entirelly possible that two total stranger dwarves might be highly suspicious of one another, since thier foci could be in diametric opposition from one another.

Khazad!  Khazad ai-menu!!!

[Dwarven Gigolo]

Khazad!  Khazad ai-menu!!!

The dapper, alluring male dwarf blinks, the lack of eyelashes apparent.

You think:
"Great... Another language I need to learn. And I thought after Nrizkt, I'd feel complete."

Emitting a series of clicks, whines, and pops, the dapper, alluring male dwarf walks away, shaking his shiny bald head.

-Dwarven Gigolo

[God]

Wouldn't lack of eyelashes make it so dust always got into dwarves eyes? How can they survive in this dusty world?

Also, is there any documentation on any existing clans of dwarves? I know about the Ironsword clan from the history, but maybe we could get documentation about another few dominant clans? If a dwarf is to know his language, he needs to be raised among a lot of dwarves.

[Dwarven Gigolo]

Wouldn't lack of eyelashes make it so dust always got into dwarves eyes? How can they survive in this dusty world?

Ah, my ever-observant deity, one would think so... But one must tread carefully when dealing with matters concerning the obsessive, hairless stoutman. As far as I know, the jury is still out on the matter of dwarven eyelashes, discussed in heated debate as it may be.

Thusly, as the sands stirred quietly and the song of a lone dwarven slave could be heard in the distance, a movement was formed...

The Society of Dwarven Eyelash Endowment

Where people of all races, professions, and stations in life, struggle and fight for the hairless, stubby folk to have at least... a few hairs.

What most of us take for granted, the simple ability to blink against the dusty winds and have our eyelashes stand guard against loose particles, these poor creatures struggle against with moment second of their lives.

While even a lowly human tart can bat her eyelashes at a prospective male companion, be it for the next fifteen minutes or 'till death do them part, our poor dwarven female could well find herself at a loss. Krath knows how many of these eyelash-deprived dwarven lasses have been led to a life of sin from this impairment, degraded to stripping for attention in smoke-filled Kuraci dens.

It has gone this far. No further. We shall no longer stand idle while this gross injustice takes place. We shall no longer drink our flame in shame, while our fellow height-impaired but muscle-laced brothers lack hair on their eyelids. We shall not go quietly into the Jihae-lit night!

We have people working at a solution from every angle. From tribal hunters collecting gwoshi hair-strands, to giants defending the dwarves from ridicule. From 'breed prostitutes raising funds for the Society, to elven whirans making sure the sands do not blow in dwarven eyes. We have vile sorcerers working on a method of growing lashes and we even have agents who have achieved contact with a hidden race of immortals, though we still await a response from the latter. But my friend, this fight needs one more... This fight needs YOU!

Look for a hanging sign depicting an eye with no eyelashes. We have branches in every city-state or outpost, and recruiters ready to tell you just how –you- can help. Waste not a single moment more, friend... Join us, and help bring an end to this inequity.

This message was brought to you by your local chapter of the Society of Dwarven Eyelash Endowment.

-Dwarven Gigolo

[creeper386]

For some reason... I see dwarves working in more a few family groups then any large clans or anything. The powers that be know that dwarves can be dangerous so don't want to many of them together. A group of dwarves too large is just a target for a slave raid or just a slaughter if they are thought as a threat. I would think any large group of dwarves would probably be further away from and civilized areas and certainly would have interaction but probably wouldn't want alot of visitors or anything like that...

And the lack of eye lashes... I think in a really dusty place eyelashes wouldn't make a really big difference. The sand is most the time blowing horizontally and such... I think someone said a bit of extra skin would probably help and such. Who knows. Maybe their eyes are alittle tougher and more resistant to stuff like the rest of them.

Creeper

I guess you all can't see our second clear eyelid. Only blinks once in a while when neccessary, but our eyes are sunked so hard to catch.

Creeper386 said:

A group of dwarves too large is just a target for a slave raid or
                  just a slaughter if they are thought as a threat.

I don't know how easy it would be to catch/kill a pack of wild dwarves. Resistant to poison/magic and oh so horribly stubborn. And we probably will crush your knees and groin with our heavy weapons.

I wish I knew where the dwarven tribes are. Oh I wish I knew. They must be real sneaky.

[creeper386]

Creeper386 said

A group of dwarves too large is just a target for a slave raid or
just a slaughter if they are thought as a threat.


I don't know how easy it would be to catch/kill a pack of wild dwarves. Resistant to poison/magic and oh so horribly stubborn. And we probably will crush your knees and groin with our heavy weapons.

I also said...

I would think any large group of dwarves would probably be further away from and civilized areas...

Dwarves make good slaves. They are cheap. The are strong. You don't need the smart, quicker muls, and dwarves eat alot less then half giants. Although I can see better dwarven slaves being born into slavery, slave raids probably would be common. The slavers on the other hand, probably would make use of muls and half giants. If the slaver isn't a mul of course.

Yeah anyways. I think dwarves would probably be better off... If anything having a stronger outter lens would probably help. As well as a slightly more complex cleaning system then the normal crying method.

They are cheap and strong, maybe so. A dwarf who is raised a slave and has his focus bent that way sure. Dwarves who are free would already have a focus and I think they would make for horrible slaves, since they would be bent on escaping and continuing their focus.

"Clean that floor!"

"Sorry too busy thinking about killing you, escaping and returning to trying to be a scrab rider."