The Difference Between Stats and Classes

[Krath]

Ok...I usually do not try to comment on this issue because this becomes a flame, so I am sorry if this post comes off as one or is one.

With that said here goes:


I am tired of people complaining about stats. In the real world, and I am probably 100% sure in Zalanthas as well, there are different body types which people are, based upon their genetics.  Just because a person is very "skinny", does not necessarily mean the person is not strong, nor does it mean the person is very agile.  No where in your description is there a reference to how "quick" your character can move or how "hard" your character can hit.  The last time I checked your description can not have a line similar to, "He is very skinny, showing that he can move and attack quickly", or anything of the such.

Just because you choose warrior for your main class does not mean you are stronger than anyone else out there. All it means is that you can and more than often are better than most at combat. It does not however mean you will be physically stronger, or slower than other people.  The same can be said about the other classes.  Pick-Pocket for instance, if you select this for your class it means that you will be able to steal items from others without being noticed. It does not mean that you will do it quickly, or that you can run fast. It just means you can take something from someone without them being noticed.

Stats just have to do with your physical and mental properties outside of your job profession.  I could be very wise, but if I want to be a swashbuckling warrior, then I am going to be that. I could be very muscular and large and my life's dream could be to be a pick-pocket, ok then I am a pick-pocket. Stats should have NOTHING to do with the profession your character chooses.  Granite, it is seen as being an advantage if you are quicker for some professions or stronger for others, it is NOT a requirement.

Do stats matter, only in the beginning. If you know how to role-play, your character will continue to do their profession regardless of what their stats are.  And even if your "stats" were not as good as you would like, think of this, how many big line backers in the NFL do you think just grew up to that size and strength without working out. Or how many track stars never practiced and won a gold medal at the Olympics. If you want to get more agile, role-play speed drills for a year, if you want to get stronger role-play lifting weights. Hell, if you even want to get better endurance, turn run on every day and make a job around the city. Log your training sessions, notice I made it plural, and send it to the account.  

Basically, even if your stats are not great there are still ways around it if you want to get better ones. Regardless, all my post is trying to say is that by no means, because you select a certain class or subclass does it mean your stats should be determined. All a class/guild is, is your choice of a job to help you bring food to your mouth, or the mouths of those that depend on you.  Hell, I am a co-op for a large Engineering and I can promise you my "wisdom" is not high at all.

Sorry if this does not make any since, I had a long night, and I am at work. I hope this is a help for everyone.

Krath

[Anonymous]

I've said it elsewhere, nearly ad nauseum, but I'll echo it here as well.

My main issue is that for obvious reasons stats are not determined until after chargen.  This results in a scenario where you either never include a description of musculature in the main desc, or run the risk of having a physical description that doesn't match your stats.

I've come around to the way of thinking of those who say that tagging a skill will result in a cookie cutter recipe being used by different races.

The only way to fix my issue requires a disproportionate amount of work.

1. Chargen is split into two parts.

Part one:

• Race
  
• Age
  
• Height/Weight
  
• Guild
  
• Subguild
  

Then you are allowed to review or change any of the above.  A 'submit' at this point takes you to the next step.

• Stats are generated with a single reroll allowed.
  
• Background
  
• Main Desc
  
• Sdesc
  
• Keywords
  

Again, you are allowed to review or change anything at this point other than stats.

2. Chargen status is saved after each step to prevent people from logging out and getting new stats.

The end result is that people can draw up realistic backgrounds and descs based on their stats without having a scenario where players either keep quitting out and relogging looking for the best stats or matching guilds choice to their generated stats.

Again, too much work for an issue which isn't universally considered a problem.

[Krath]

You physical apperance should have nothing to do with how strong or quick you are as a person.  If that were the case I would not be 145 lbs and able to bench press 335 lbs right now. Saying that your physical appearance should determine your stats is stupid and unrealistic.

[Anonymous]

Saying that your physical appearance should determine your stats is stupid and unrealistic.

No, its the other way around for me.  Stats should play a part in determining your physical appearance.

I don't see how its stupid to think that someone who was strong would look strong.

[Krath]

Just so everyone is clear, the basis of my arguement and reasoning come from the different types of bodies a person can have.  Here is a short summary of what I am trying to get at when I say your physical apperance has nothing to do with how quick or strong you are. This example is using Strength as a basis when it comes to working out and such.


.  Let me, copy this thread from health and fitness magazines.

Endomorph

An Endomorph's biggest concern should be the losing of fat and adopting a lifestyle that keeps it off. Strength training should be done to get a better muscle to fat ratio and therefore improve metabolism. Use moderate weights at a fast training pace (very little rest between sets and exercises). You should lower your calorie intake (but not try to starve yourself) and should eat frequent but small meals. Sugars, sweets and junk food should be eliminated from your diet. Engage daily in some activity like brisk walking, biking, etc., and try to increase the amount of time you spend each week.

Mesomorph

A Mesomorph has a naturally fit body but to maintain it or improve it they should exercise and diet corretly for their type. Strength training can be done more often and for longer sessions then would be good for an Ectomorph, but you must still be carefull not to overdo it. You should train with moderate to heavy weighs and at a moderate pace, not resting too long between sets. You will find you gain muscle quite easy (some women and even men might not want to get too bulky, but this won't happen suddenly. When you are happy with your muscle size simply train to maintain it). Stick to a good healthy diet to keep you lean and muscular, and watch for any slow creeping fat gains. Engage in and enjoy aerobic activities, sports, etc. but do not overdo.

Ectomorph

Ectomorphs should concentrate on gaining weight in the form of good lean muscle tissue. Weight training should be done but not too often or for too long each session. Weight should be fairly heavy and workout pace slower (longer rest periods between sets). Diet should be high in calories (good quality food not junk) and you should eat more then you're used to and often. Aerobic and other activities (sports, dancing, etc.) should be kept to a minimum, at least until you are happy with your weight and looks.


The three body types are further described below.

ECTOMORPH

fragile
thin
flat chest
delicate build
young appearance
tall
lightly muscled
stoop-shouldered
large brain
Has trouble gaining weight.
muscle growth takes longer.

MESOMORPH

athletic
hard, muscular body
overly mature appearance
rectangular shaped (hourglass shaped for women)
thick skin
upright posture
gains or loses weight easily
grows muscle quickly.

ENDOMORPH

soft body
flabby
underdeveloped muscles
round shaped
over-developed digestive system
trouble losing weight
generally gains muscle easily.

CONCLUSIONS

When you know which type you are (or which mixture) and diet and exercise correctly for that type, you will make much better progress.

Your goal should be to look as close as possible to (or stay looking like) a mesomorph. With the correct exercise and diet this can be attainable, and while you may be a bit upset that you have to work hard to look good while the true mesomorph looks that way naturally, at least you will still be fit and look good. Your strength as well will be equal to that of a mesamorph regardless of which body type you are.  The ability to gain strength is the same, but the size of the muscle is where it varies. And even the mesomorph will find as he/she gets older that some exercise and diet is needed if they want to continue to look good and be fit.

[Krath]

1. Chargen is split into two parts.

Part one:

Race

Age

Height/Weight

Guild

Subguild



Then you are allowed to review or change any of the above. A 'submit' at this point takes you to the next step.



Stats are generated with a single reroll allowed.

Background

Main Desc

Sdesc

Keywords

quote]

By doing this you totally change your character and write a description, pack and history based upon his stats, rather than WHO he is as a person.  Making the mud and your RP Solely based around Your stats.

I guess I do not see the logic behind it or a reason as to WHY it is needed, other than to benefit you to kill things faster or branch skills faster which is not what the game is about.

[Anonymous]

By doing this you totally change your character and write a description, pack and history based upon his stats, rather than WHO he is as a person.  Making the mud and your RP Solely based around Your stats.

How exactly does having a physical desc that says you are a 90 lb weakling or a rippling mass of muscle to match your physical stats result in RP based on stats?

I guess I do not see the logic behind it or a reason as to WHY it is needed, other than to benefit you to kill things faster or branch skills faster which is not what the game is about.

Stop right there.  I've said I've come around to a way of thinking like others that stat tagging, as I previously suggested, would end up with, as I said earlier in this thread, a cookie cutter recipe for each race.  Dwarves would tag wisdom, elves strength, etc etc.

How does knowing stats before you write up your desc and background result in my being able to kill anything faster?  Nothing I suggest involves a mechanism for stat manipulation.

All I was doing was tossing out a method whereby a physical description and background could be drawn up knowing the stats that you had.

Moving away from strength, I've always felt cheesy drawing up a background of a cunning human who ends up having low wisdom.  I'm not saying if you have low wisdom statwise you have to play stupid, but there is something that makes me feel fraudulent when I'm playing a devious, cackling evil genious with a half-giant's wisdom.

Let me repeat this since I'm apparently not being clear.

I've changed my mind based on what others wrote in reply to the 'Crappy Stats' topic.  Stat tagging would probably be a bad idea.

I would like to see a scenario where my physical description and any description of mental capability would be based on stats and not just my hope for them.  The more recent descs and backgrounds I've created do not touch on those topics for fear of not being in sync.

Nowhere in this thread have I suggested changing stats, just the order of chargen.

[Plazgoth]

I would have to agree with Krath. I think you can describe some musculature in your description and it would not matter what strength stat you get.  Strength and amount of muscles are not always related.

A person that does not visibly have large muscles could be strong and a person that has bulky muscles is not necessarily very strong.

From my experience I make some of my characters have muscles but I do not overly exaggerate their appearance in case I roll a low strength stat. Even then you still have a choice to re-roll.

[Carnage]

Here's a plan: Suck it up and accept it as a fault of the system. This same topic has been hashed and rehashed multiple times. Nobody can come to an agreement and no amount of arguing over the GDB is going to bring that around.

[Lazloth]

I still think hiding your stats from view is an acceptable solution, but I imagine 99% of the community disagrees.

(Plus, we'll get continual posts a la I'm a heavily-muscled, beefy elf.  Why can't I pull this freaking bow?)

[Marc]

Not to mention 99% of the community believes stats make little to no difference in the late game, which is completely absurd.

With how much stats affect character abilities we as players should either have:

A.) Some control over how our stats are assigned (either choose a 'primary' stat or some other system)

or

B.) Hide them from view completely

[Lazloth]

Yay, proof positive we're at least at 200 players.

[halfbreed]

Ummm, please don't hide them completely...  I think things are fine the way they are.  Yes, some additional customization would be nice (and I don't believe out of line) but the poor Imms have enough to do probably w/out having to implement a change like this... which would probably be fairly major I imagine.

Also, I don't buy the "stats don't matter" argument very much...  yes, skills and status and RP etc. will be of greater import in the longrun, but does this mean we shouldn't be concerned about stats at all?

Tell that to the char w/very poor str which is barely able to lift a heavy backpack.

[Anonymous]

B.) Hide them from view completely

I don't see how that would help too much. As you said, people thinking that stats don't matter and practically regarding them as an OOC concept is absurd. We need to have more control over the stats.

As far as people saying that basing your description on your stats is unrealistic... that's just stupid. Realistically, the biggest factor in your strength is your plain size, but right after that comes the size of your muscles. Maybe you guys are just used to seeing scrawny guys on steroids or something.

Whatever, this is a game. Who cares about realism. Lets make fat guys quick and dexterous, the scrawnier you are the stronger, and sickly looking people high on endurance and health. And people who are slow in the head, don't act slow in the head. You're actually smart... that wisdom is just code, doesn't have anything to do with your character. Its OOC.

[Angela Christine]

B.) Hide them from view completely

I don't see how that would help too much. As you said, people thinking that stats don't matter and practically regarding them as an OOC concept is absurd. We need to have more control over the stats.

Don't over-react.  We don't need more control over stats, the game has run fine for like 10 years without more control over stats.  A more accurate statement would be that "some players want more control over stats."

The stats themselves have both IC and OOC aspects.  In real life we have way more than 4 stats, and we don't get to look at our character sheets.  You have a general idea of how strong you are, but not necessarily which one of 11 descrete catagories you fit into.  You find out that your backpack full of crap is too heavy to carry by attempting to carry it, find out how much you can bench press by going to a gym and trying it.  Knowing what catagory you fit into gives you a vague idea of how strong you are compared to other people without having to test it in play, which makes sense since by the time you are in your teens you have probably had the opportunity to test it and form an opinion on roughly how strong you are.

AC

[Rindan]

Also, I don't buy the "stats don't matter" argument very much...  yes, skills and status and RP etc. will be of greater import in the longrun, but does this mean we shouldn't be concerned about stats at all?

Tell that to the char w/very poor str which is barely able to lift a heavy backpack.

I don't want to deal with this same old issue again about if people should be allowed to make sure that every desert elf has maxed out strength.  However, this point about stats meaning jack or shit in the end game just blows me away.  I would be surprised to learn that anyone who thinks that stats are important has played a 20+ day character who used their skills often.  Stats really mean nothing in the end game.  True, if your strength is inhumanly bad you have to dress lighter, but that is just semantics.  

Once you get to very high skill levels you will run into exactly two type of people.  Most people you will solidly pound into pulp.  You will beat up Byn sergeants and absolutely murder newbies – and that is only when you are using training weapons.   Occasionally you will run into someone as good or better then you.  This will be a very rare occurrence.  If you fight these people, unless they are double your play time, the fights will be very long.  Again, stats won't matter.  You will spend all your time missing each other.

The lack of effect that stats have is even more pronounced with other skills.  Other skills simply stop failing, good stats or bad.  You pick pocket everything with almost no failure, you always are able to peek, your backstabs almost always hit, you always do a perfect skinning job.  Again, stats mean very little.

The only time when stats really have an effect in the end game is if the stat is freakishly high.  A human with absolutely incredible strength and poor strength won't notice much of a difference except that one guy is wearing lighter armor.  The real difference comes in when you have a half giant or a mul against a human or elf.  Then you start to notice that stats have some modification to the fight.  Namely, it hurts like hell to be hit by ultra strong races.  Whatever the case, that random roll in the beginning has absolutely nothing to do with this.  It is purely a racial thing.

People need to chill out about stats and live a little longer.  Skill absolutely rules this games mechanics.  Stats are just a perk.  A weak warrior can still be a terror with a sword.  A slow pick pocket or assassin can still become perfect at their trade.  At worst, stats will effect how much shit they can stuff into a backpack.  I suggest worrying less about stats and just trying to live longer.

[Xanous]

I think the best idea about stats was the one where certain subguilds give out modest stat boosts.  There would be 4 subguilds, one for each stat

That gives the players a choice of having a desert elf that's a little stronger or one who has a few extra skills.

[Marc]

Rindin:   I have had my share of long lived characters, all of which have been combat based.  So that clears up your 25 day req.

If you have a desert elf with Absolutely Incredible agility two things are garunteed:

1.)  Any agility based skill will gain a bonus.
2.)  All agility based skills will always gain that bonus, highly skilled or not

The best way I can present this is by using D&D.  If your character in D&D had a strength of 15 he would gain a +1 damage roll.  As the strength went up so did the damage bonus.  If your agility was 15, you would gain -1 ac in addition to your armor.  Armageddons system is doubtedly that simple, but I will bet a real quarter that there are bonuses for stats.

And if there are bonuses for stats, they are perminent.  If your agility grants a +10% to your dodge, it will always grant a +10%, regardless if your dodge skill is 5% or 65%. (Ed. There is no dodge skill)

Having high stat values grants certain bonuses.  Whether they are raw bonuses (ie +1 +3 +5 etc) or formula bonuses is up for speculation without access to the code, but there is a bonus and that bonus is perminent regardless of skill.

[Angela Christine]

Rindin:   I have had my share of long lived characters, all of which have been combat based.  So that clears up your 25 day req.

If you have a desert elf with Absolutely Incredible agility two things are garunteed:

1.)  Any agility based skill will gain a bonus.
2.)  All agility based skills will always gain that bonus, highly skilled or not

You say that like it's a good thing.     Don't forget that you only have the chance to improve when you fail, if you always succeed you'll be stuck with a low skill percentage forever.  A while back someone posted about their pickpocket with good stats that always succeeded in their pickpocketing attempts right from day one.  What's wrong with that?  If you never fail, you never improve.  If you never improve, you never branch.  The ideal situation for quick skill branching would be high Wisdom and low everything else, so that you would fail often and quickly learn from your failures.

My point?  I dunno, there is a weird chemical smell in my building today and it's given me a headache.  Something about the cool way things are balanced so that even low stats have a compensatory advantage, you figure it out.  :roll:

AC

[Xanous]

1.) Any agility based skill will gain a bonus.
2.) All agility based skills will always gain that bonus, highly skilled or not

The point is that the bonuses from stats are dwarfed by the skills for older characters.  For example the formula for your defense in combat is something like agility + defense + parry.  If your defense and parry skills are close to 100% it doesn't matter if your agility is 12 or 15 (or whatever agility scores are) since there's less than a 1% difference between 213 and 215.

[Below Average Joe]

I think anyone who sends in logs no matter how well done or what not in order to change their stats is basically being a powergamer and all stat imporvements should be denied.

Why? because it is just plain ridiculous. My character and others work hard all day, carrying items hunting riding fighting training etc, and I am doubtful they send in logs, and all these things would affect a characters stats. And the mere idea that someone is using what seems to me OOC style training in order to get stat boosts is infuriating. Yeah everyone on Zalanthas knows how to be a personal trainer in their time off. Nobles and such maybe, but every joe? Bah. Maybe its because I have below-average stats in bad places and I live still at 80+ days. SUCK IT UP.

[creeper386]

I'm thinking I'll repeat my idea that overall stats don't hurt too much... Even after five days bad stats tend to go the way of the road, not to mention 10, 20, 50+ days... Ya know?

And if your stats are just terribly in oppose. Maybe you could email the mud about switching something around... But I'm not sure if it's something you should do. Certainly not make it a common thing. Maybe once every few RL years or so. If not less then that. But thats just me... SHRUG.

Creeper who doesn't know anything.

[God]

I don't want to deal with this same old issue again about if people should be allowed to make sure that every desert elf has maxed out strength

I don't see where you get this misconception. They would still have their racial minus, and so would be pretty weak.

As far as their effectiveness... in surviving to get old, they may be very helpful. People throw around 10 days as if its nothing, only 240 hours of gameplay and working your skills. Thats not such a simple thing for all of us. Mainly, I'm concerned with the principle of the thing. That stats are just OOC things that affect the world, and you shouldn't roleplay them, you shouldn't think about them. I'd much rather everyone had just average stats, if that's the mindset, because that goes against the grain of what an RP mud is. Or maybe just stats based on your class.

I prefer to use stats in generating my character, ie the role that I'm playing. Low wisdom? Fine, I can roleplay a bit of a slower guy than I usually do. Low strength? Fine, he's scrawny, doesn't push his weight around and isn't boastful. Ect, ect. Your stats greatly affect your childhood and, ultimately, your class.

I could try to be a professional athlete, although my stamina and dexterity isn't great. I just wouldn't succeed, and people would laugh at me. To be a professional thief it takes some dexterity. I'm sure you guys read some fantasy books with quick thieves. You can't be clumsy and bungle your hands and bump them up against the person.