A new archery feat

[COGATO]

I was sitting around thinking about the aspects of archery and I came up with an idea. When an arrow is shot at a target, either it misses and no harm is done to the intended target, or it hits and damage is taken, but what I was thinking about would add a little more to this situation. What if when an arrow strikes a target, depending on the size of the target, the skill of the archer, and the area in which the target was hit, what if the victim were to be knocked down, hindering them from the all immediate run away quickly while I have an arrow lodged in my throat. It adds a bit of realism to the game and puts a little more depth into the idea of using archery as a hunting and military tactic. I have never had a truly skilled archer and this may already be implemented, but from what I have seen the game still lacks this aspect of realism which I think would truly add to the value of a good bowman.

[Yasbusta]

Now I am not sure if this was left out on purpose or just never thought about. Trying not to be ic sensitive it has already been thought about, if a different aspect. Maybe the imms wanted it to be left out on purpose but I think it would be a great idea. Archery is so understate in the game in my oppinion.

Just my tidbit

Yasbusta

I like this idea, and maybe it could be affected by what type of arrow as well.  Like a heavy stone sheaf arrow might knock you around more than a wooden flight arrow.  On the same topic though, if arrows can knock a fellow down, why not simple melee hits, especially blunt weapons?  I think a good sized club wielded by a mul or HG would knock most people a couple meters around if used corectly, heh.  I suppose you can try to reflect this through the bash skill, but if arrows can get a knockdown, bludegoning weapons ought to have their chance too.

[Lazloth]

I voted no, as archery is so incredibly overpowered right now, manipulating the victim's position would amplify a mode of combat that requires attention on other levels.  Should some of the other issues with the skill come to be addressed, this would make a nice addition.

[Carnage]

Several points to address.

#1: Your poll is twisted and meaningless. You only put down the answers you want to hear.

#2: Knocking people down is in game. I won't spoil where or what, but you can knock people down with skills, besides bash.

#3: Archery is already overpowered as is. When a hit to the wrist can do fourty damage to someone, well, I don't think you need to be able to knock them down, not to mention that when you get good at archery there's just about no delay.

#4: Code-wise, I can hit you in game with a warhammer in the head several times, and you won't die. There's a balance between realism and gameplay. The fact that you want archery to be pretty much an insta-kill skill that can not only do massive HP damage but disable someone is a joke and destroys the balance of the game.

Yasbusta, you're new to the game. When you play more you'll come to realize that many people know how good of a skill archery is. The only problem is that it's hard to raise and very expensive.

Archery is already on thin enough ice. I wouldn't suggest trying to make it more powerful, especially considering the level of damage it can do now.

I think Yasbusta said in another thread that he's been playing a while.

On topic though, I voted yes. Since last I knew, the throw skill knocked someone down. Good god, the -throw- skill, knocked someone down. 2 day warrior with average strength tossing knives and knocking -duskhorn- onto their ass. If this has since changed, I change my vote to no.

[Carnage]

On topic though, I voted yes. Since last I knew, the throw skill knocked someone down. Good god, the -throw- skill, knocked someone down. 2 day warrior with average strength tossing knives and knocking -duskhorn- onto their ass. If this has since changed, I change my vote to no.

You can also hurl axes or javelins at people, you know.

Those should knock things down, but then at least take the ability away from these little knives. The largest I've seen these things described is perhaps just over half a cord, 10 inches at the most.

[Yasbusta]

Me new no way, new, bah I bet that i have been playing longer than most of the player base, I just meant that archery for what it is it isn't as good as I think it should be in the game, from hunting experience, but if you want to think that over 7 years playing is new then go ahead

Yasbusta

[House Rising Sun]

Arrows probably hurt.

I imagine the pain of it could bring some people to their knees. But they're not gonna go flying or even be pushed over Xena-style.

I'd think, without really considering the idea much, that before arrows or knives or throwing axes are going to be knocking people down, melee combat should be doing it. Now it's a stretch and definitely not the best way to approach the problem, but here's what I'm thinking: We have stun, we have stamina, why not a less visible value to represent balance or your pcs balanceability being based on...

Eh, screw that. Halfway through typing it I wake up and realize how it wouldn't fit into arm's combat system. Perhaps particularly strong attacks, or a certain number of successful consecutive attacks knocking a person down if they fail a bash test or something. But either way, arrows should not be downing people any more than hammers and the like.

[Carnage]

Me new no way, new, bah I bet that i have been playing longer than most of the player base, I just meant that archery for what it is it isn't as good as I think it should be in the game, from hunting experience, but if you want to think that over 7 years playing is new then go ahead

You sure act like you are. I don't think anyone doubts the power of archery. It's an incredible skill. Like I said, when you can do 40 damage to someone by hitting them in the wrist with an arrow, you've got a pretty fucking powerful skill. I'd place it next to backstab, damage-wise.

[halfbreed]

Archery can be very powerful as-is, no need for change.

I'd MUCH rather see a decent way of practicing archery without having to spend a billion sid... and having to shoot at critters for practice.  A practice dummy or target, basically.

It's probably one of the most bugs-me-in-the-back-of-my-mind type things about the code, ever since my newbie days years ago...  the fact that there's no real way of working at becoming a master marksman without actually shooting at a critter.

(Though I'd be cool with say, allowing archery only to increase to a certain point via shooting at still targets, then get the top levels of mastery only by shooting at live targets.)

[COGATO]

I put down posatives and negatives to this post to vote on, I cant help the fact that I didnt think of every possible response a person could have to this idea and put it as a voteable topic. If you want no, put no one cares about my ideas, if you are if'y put it dosent make a difference, or that it might have some application, and if your gung-ho put yes, if you it really hurts you deep down that I didnt put what you were thinking in the options then go write up a new pole about it and make sure to get every bodys point of view on voteable topics through PM's so that no one can complain. (Thanks)

As for archery being a really powerful skill. Like I said I have never had a succsessful archery so I wouldnt know, but what I do know is that archery is incredibly hard to get even decent at it, not only because the learning curve is very steep but because without fletchery its very very expensive, and even with fletchery, fletchery is one of the hardest skills to perfect I have ever seen (Hope that not to ic) and even after its been perfected just trying to fill one quiver can be very time consuming. So to be decent at archery and not spend RL years perfecting your skills you have to have a character that learns from his mistakes quickly, have numerous hours a day to play your character, and have resources readily available to you or have some knowledge of where to come about the resources you need. So I think that if someone wants to devote that much time and effort to perfecting a skill such as archery then after they finally get really good at it then they should very well be able to knock someone on thier butt with their extremely skilled shot, kinda reeping the fruits of your labor. As for knocking off 40 hp a shot, you may be right, but most people haul major A** after the first hit even through that large sheaf head arrow is lodged in their throat. Oh well, Im sure I missed some vital point in this whole rant, but, it was an idea on a saturday evening, cut me some slack cocheese.

[COGATO]

I like your idea halfbreed, and especially the part about only being able to get so good off of shooting still targets, it really gives those akin with the use of a bow a place in houses and military applications, but still keeps a spot open for that lone devoted ranger that has spent his life with a bow.

I know that some organizations (You all probably know who just didnt want to give away ic info) actually have practice dummys for the purpose of archery training, I just hope that this organization isnt training uber archers by only putting them against still targets.

[Delirium]

With a little thought, planning, and the right combination of skills and supplies (either your own or with the help of others) a single good archer could likely take out someone much more powerful than them with one successful shot. No, not killing someone with one shot. But I'll leave it at that.

Archery, used effectively and with the right sort of planning, is an incredibly powerful and dangerous skill. That, I imagine, is one of the main reasons it's so difficult to master. Not to mention, from an IC standpoint, supplies for archery -would- be hard to get. Though the level of difficulty depends on location as well. Think about where the supplies you'd need to make arrows would be easier to get and there you go.

[Guest]

Yes, I agree with you, being in the right terrain does help out alot with supplies, but it still takes time and most of the time travel to different locations to gather the supplies needed. Then time to craft the arrows after usually traveling to three different locations to gather the supplies needed (this is if you buy your feathers instead of harvest them which is increasingly hard because the amount of creatures with useable feathers is limited and that combined with the chance you may break the feathers or spoil the carcass before you get the feathers from it makes archery, yet again increasingly hard to practice) if you dont buy your feathers then you have another few days of hunting to look foward to before you even have enough feathers to make a substantial amount of arrows, assuming you dont ruin them in the arrow crafting. And if you just buy arrows directly from the shops, your usually looking at around 200 sid to fill one quiver (thats cutting the price in most cases) so to fill a quiver you are still looking at a few days however you look at it. Archery is very hard to master and if you do, you deserve every up you can get for your devotion.

[Hot_Dancer]

The amount of damage a master archer does is -nasty-..being able to knock them down as well. Mass doom.

Hot_Dancer

[deviant storm]

You sure act like you are.

Carnage, what part of NO FLAMING don't you understand? Everyone's entitled to an opinion on the GDB without being personally attacked.

As for archery. I've been shot. Repeatedly. Those sheaf arrows hit hard, and do quite a bit of damage. Especially in conjunction with poisons, etc.
So no, I'm not in favor of being knocked down by an arrow.

[edit: I meant to address the first part of this post to Carnage, not Cogato. My apologies to Cogato for the mistake.]

[gfair]

While arrows in movies will knock all sorts of foul servants of Saruman down except for the one Orc that gets two shots from Legolas and still manages to make it into the culvert to blow up the... wait, ferget it.

It doesn't happen.  A bow will either stick in you, or pass through you.  The idea of knockdown just doesn't fit with it - it's a heavy object with a sharp point, and with sufficient kinetic energy it will pass through.  Without sufficient kinetic energy, it will merely pierce your breastbone.  In any case, it is not designed to impart all its energy without doing damage, it's designed to destroy as many vitals as possible, and that means passthrough.  A blunt arrow may be an option, if the IMMs are willing to consider it.  Blunt spears and throwing maces are known to exist in real life, they would be realistic in Arm as well.

With today's modern compound bows and sophisticated let-off cams, the kinetic energy that a bow can pass to an arrow can be so great that archers report that their arrows have shot into a deer, pierced its breastbone, passed through the chest cavity, and dug deep into the ground beyond.  If that's the kind of capability a bow has when smacking the breastplate, then it is far easier for an arrow to pass clean through a humanoid in any spot other than head.  No knockdown, just pure puncture and passthrough.

I voted yes, but it is unrealistic that knockdown happen on any sharp, armor-piercing arrows - they must be blunt to be realistic.

[COGATO]

Aright, I see your point, a sharp arrow traveling that fast would probably pass straight through. But here is the text you could witness for that.

An arrow flies in from the north striking you in the chest and passes through your upper torso flying out of your back.

You stoically stand upright ignoring the seering pain in your chest and run into the wilds escaping the enemy even though you have a gaping hole in your chest delivering the most incredible pain you have felt in your life.

(Yes I know this isnt the actual text, but by saying the arrow flying straight through you would not cause you to fall or roll on the ground or atleast drop to a knee clutching the area of infliction, not very realistic? That or everyone has the ability to perform incredible feats of mind over matter.)

Ok, so here is the bout....we have....An entire world of superbeings capable of ignoring projectiles passing straight through thier flesh VS People that atleast drop to a knee holding the gaping holes in thier bodys......Place your bets.

[Forest Junkie]

You are a sad, strange little man COGATO...   ... And for that, I tip my hat to you!  

On the topic of this matter, though, I agree in some ways and disagree in others.

To Carnage: I completely agree that master archers can do massive amounts of damage. What's strange, as you've said, is taking 40 damage from a shot to the wrist.  Maybe if there was a way to balance the system, where a wrist shot can only take a max amount of hp, say only 1/8 your total hp, while a perfect head shot is a one kill. (If this is already implemented, don't hurt me, I'm on disability.) It would then, IMHO, make more sense to have this "knockdown" code in effect, as there would be more of a balance on what hurts more and what can knock you down.

Also, take into effect the armor some wear, as others have said. An shard would likely shatter over most types of breastplates, while searing through many types of leather.

All in all, sounds like it would be a 'tok bitch to code. So, in the end, is it worth it? I say maybe

[Carnage]

You sure act like you are.

Carnage, what part of NO FLAMING don't you understand? Everyone's entitled to an opinion on the GDB without being personally attacked.

I could have said a variety of other things but I chose to limit myself to that. It was a very ignorant statement about a very powerful skill. Was it easy to misintepret that he was a newbie because of that? Yes, and I didn't realize it until someone said something. Hence 'You sure act like you are' in reference to being a newbie. The fact that he joined on Jan 30th doesn't exactly help make him seem like a veteran player, either.

Cogato: You have two yes's, a ridiculous no that you tried to use to reinforce your argument, a personal attack on yourself, and a throwaway vote. That's not exactly a balanced and unbiased poll, especially considering your vote options make it seem that all players follow that idea. A simple 'yes' and 'no' will suffice.

Forest Junkie: "Maybe if there was a way to balance the system, where a wrist shot can only take a max amount of hp, say only 1/8 your total hp, while a perfect head shot is a one kill."

Are you mad?! You want to give the playerbase the potential to kill another person at the cost of fifteen obsidian and two seconds of delay. That's ridiculous. How is it you people can't realize that making archery more powerful is basically going to destroy the combat code? It's basically the same effect as making weapons one hit kills in combat. Sure, it's realistic, but you just completely fucked over the coded system. I cannot possibly fathom why you, Cogato, and pretty much everybody else who voted yes want to give other players the ability to kill you in under two seconds without a chance to fight back. It's ludicrous.

[House Rising Sun]

Don't be such a hater, man.

On what forest junkie said, perhaps he meant -could- be a one hit kill. To that I disagree, but there's no reason to call him mad or get all worked up over it. A shot in the wrist should do much less for killing a person than a shot in the chest, or a shot in the mouth. Being instantly killed is just the way of the game, though.

However, the more we put our focus on location-based damage and whatnot, the less we see the simplicity of Armageddon's combat system. It tells you just what you need to know, nothing more, and doesn't require a lot of constant typing to engage an enemy. This allows us to emote and breathe some life into usually dry fights. If you get hit in the wrist and it half kills you, oh well. Pretend your pc got shot in the gut, and all is well.

So I'd support limiting damages for certain locations, but going very far beyond that will only hurt combat. I've already spoken my mind on knockdown.

OR BETTER YET!

shot -through- the wrist to the gut.

now thatd be creative.

I cannot possibly fathom why you, Cogato, and pretty much everybody else who voted yes want to give other players the ability to kill you in under two seconds without a chance to fight back.

I voted yes because of my beef with throw, not to make archery more powerful, which I know it is already.