Not a flame just pondering somethings

[Yasbusta]

OK I hope that no one takes this the wrong way first off.... I love this game there is nothing like it, kudos to the imms all the way, and now for the but...

I have been thinking about how the world has been evolving. Now mind you this comes from someone whom has been playing the game for six years about so I do have some experience behind me.  Ok I do hope that people discuss this rather than just yell at me for my opinions so here I go. This post primarily deals with Allanak.

Now when I first joined the game walking around the town, I finally figure out where the gaj is and go sit in the bar, and a Templar walks in, now everyone stands in the room and bows to the templar, I do not, lack of reading all the great documentation of the game. So the templar narrows his eyes at me and calls his soldiers to subdue me, I get sent to the arena, and die, wonderful I am already addicted, better bow to templars.  Now when a templar enters the room, you will be lucky to see more than one pc rise and bow to them. I understand the northern templar's and why they do not go around killing all the commoners. In the south, why is this allowed?

The most addicting part of this game to me is when I am in a conflicts whether it be an actually fight or just a verbal one. So why have the races that offer conflict been closed? To enrich the play within the city, fine and dandy great idea.

In the documentation of nobles, it states

"The social structures in Allanak have existed for, literally, centuries, with little or no change. 99% of individuals raised within this system will have it so deeply engrained that to question it would be tantamont to being an elf that rides a kank, or a dwarf without a focus. This structure is part of the noble role, and players who cannot remain within its boundaries might be better off choosing a different role. "

Also

"One of the important keys to noble/commoner roleplay is to remember not to carry attitudes over from real life. On Armageddon, the vast majority of Allanak commoners, who live and die by the mercy of the Highlord, firmly believe that nobles are nobles because they're better. The same holds true for the nobles, who assume their privileged position is correct because they are of better blood and finer material than a commoner. This attitude is reinforced by their benefits: literacy, which acquires near-mystical dimensions in an illiterate society; vast wealth; social status; and freedom from most of the laws of the city. "

Now then going upon this, a commoner to do or say anything rude to a noble they would expect to be killed or punished upon the spot. I have seen countless Commoners speaking to a Lord or Lady and not addressing them as Lord or Lady, which following the documentation is a great insult.
SO why are they not killed? Is it because the Nobles fear having retributions happen to them, loosing their precious pc or what. Is it that since the war ideals have changed and the documentation needs updating or what.

I understand the want for rp, I love rp, but shouldn't the world's ideals be held before the want of keeping such character alive.  

The northlands, occupied by the Allanak for years, must hate the southlands ever so much. Why then do I find northern pc's even speaking to southern pc's I mean I try to put myself in Tuluk's position. Fighting for my freedom for years, and finally being able to call myself a Tulukian, my friends, family most killed in the war. I would hate Allanak and its people like nothing else, I believe it is about 15 years ic since the war. Why then do Northerners even speak with southerners?

If anything comes from this post at all I wish and hope that people pay a bit more regard to the background of the game, and carry your characters prejudices into game a bit more. Or maybe I am way out to lunch, tell me I wish to hear from anyone that wants to flame me agree with me, whatever it is, please reply back.


Yours Truly
Yasbusta

[House Rising Sun]

I think the thing to keep in mind about Allanak is that everyone lives in fear, no matter the position. Commoners fear damn near everything. Nobles fear each other, the templars, and failure in the eyes of their House. The templars fear each other, and their king Tektolnes who grants them power. That's the theme, I think, of Allanak in whole: Fear. Now, for a noble nowadays to be killing or asking the enslavement of every joe who doesn't address him properly would not fit quite as well as it may have in the past. If the Highlord's subjects keep dropping away because his higher pawns are getting annoyed, he's going to have them offed. Maybe once or twice to set an example, but not the mass slaughter your post hints at. The nobility is above the law, but the law itself is shaky.

As far as templars go, I guess this is up to the players behind them (which is another issue completely). If a templar's player wants to strike some fear into the hearts of every commoner he passes, he might take one or two random people out of the crowd for punishment. Maybe not in the arena, but public humiliation is always a good way to go. Maybe then they'd really fill the demand the nobles docs put on their shoulders, of being the fear-inspiring bastards tek wants. Two weeks of that, and an entire tavern will stop dead in its tracks to bow to a templar. Of course, then the players will have to avoid walking through a tavern six or seven times. Business could suffer, and nobody wants that.

I havn't been playing in Allanak for a while, so I really can't comment on the status quo there. But if things are how I left them, or if my brief visits are any indication, then most things are how I picture they should be. The houses may not be in as much direct conflict as they should be, but then again that's not something commoners see every day, much less do the people who visit once every two years. There are a lot of things that could be improved to emphasize the parts of the docs that aren't evident in the game, but those should be brought up directly with the staff, to avoid spoiling them. At least, the ones I'm thinking of should. Anyway, it's that very purpose that I think a lot of the "conflict" races have been removed. Mantis are great, as are Halflings, but the focus of much of the game I think should be in the cities, between people that have to live together for survival but loathe each others presence.

On the northlands regarding southerners, I havn't seen that aspect recently either. But if things are as you say, I imagine the number of southerner-hating pcs should increase. There's another post talking about the good ol' days of the northlands, where hardy woodsmen and hunters just kinda sat around being groovy in their homeland, hating southerners. How about more of that, only now they sit around being groovy in their city, hating southerners.  It's just a matter of what we want.

All in all though, I agree.  At this moment I can't think of anything else to bring up or add to the discussion. Good night.

[John]

Wow. A lot of long time players have been coming here recently (I always assume recent join date = newbie).

Now when a templar enters the room, you will be lucky to see more than one pc rise and bow to them.

I've seen quite a few debates on the GDB on whether or not people should bow when they see a Templar/Noble. The argument is that they're a pretty common sight (not in the Gaj, but on the streets and in Traders) so for Nobles to expect a Mexican wave of bows to follow them wherever they go would be ridiculous and inefficient. It sounds like from your post that people have decided to try out the "don't bow as often" approach.

It also sounds like things have maybe gone over to the other extreme with people never bowing. IMO people should bow to Nobles/Templars when they're addressed and when they're dismissed. If they make eye contact with a Noble then they should DEFINITELY bow, even if it's from across the room. Also if people around are bowing, it doesn't hurt to follow suit.

I have seen countless Commoners speaking to a Lord or Lady and not addressing them as Lord or Lady

Depends how it's happening. I first took your post to mean that people were saying "Hello Marie" instead of "Hello M'Lady". That is most CERTAINTLY inexcusable. How a Noble reacts is another story which I'll talk about later. If you mean people are simply not ending every say with "M'Lord" then IMO that's fine. I always felt silly ending every say with "Yes, My Lord Borsail" especially if he's sitting there asking me a lot of short yes and no questions. I tend to say "M'Lord" at the beginning of a conversation, when given an order, and when leaving. If it's an overly long conversation I'll sprinkle it here and there. But I felt that Nobles would get sick of me constantly saying "My Lord Tor" ALL the time (please correct me if I'm wrong).

SO why are they not killed?

I can think of a few reasons (besides us players have stopped being harsh. Which is a possibility) such as:
* They have lost quite a bit of political power. I know a while ago there was quite a bit happening with Templars and how much power they had. Not too sure WHAT was going on, but something was.
* They decide to do it subtley. Now this can range from the person being beaten up in an alleyway by House soldiers who are out of uniform.
* The Noble decides to bide his time. They spy on the commoner and wait until they go for a job in a House and have a quiet word with the hirer to obstruct the person.
* Hire a pick-pocket to steal some of their stuff. They'll never realise it was you, but they'll get put out.

Subtlety is very important when it comes to Nobles. But if your too subtle you get called a push-over (which is what you might want).

Why then do I find northern pc's even speaking to southern pc's I mean I try to put myself in Tuluk's position.

Really? I've seen a few instances (I've only seen a few southerners up there) but once that southerner is gone, all the spitting and cursing starts happening again. See, the commoners are in a tight situation. Southerners are being allowed in the city (I doubt this is IC for 'nakkies) and the Byn even have their own compound. This has caused a lot of mixed feelings for the commoners. Do they go with their natural instinct and start hassling the southern barbarians, but should they do that when it appears as if their Nobles (who they respect _a lot_) are condone the southerners being around. I've noticed _a lot_ of quiet murmurings about them southerners, but not a lot of in-your-face hatred (because that would be unsophisticated). I'm sure if a southerner was found hunting alone they wouldn't live.

As far as templars go .. public humiliation is always a good way to go.

I couldn't agree more. And I noticed a fair bit of public wippings a few months ago, so I hope that's continued and become more common. My mum always says there's nothing like going out to a public floggin'

The houses may not be in as much direct conflict as they should be

Trust me. A few months ago, there was A TON and not a single bit of it was discernible from the outside.

[Bestatte]

I'm not trying to get into the arguement of the square footage and max capacity of the bars in Allanak, but here's my general thoughts:

I envision the Bard's Barrel main tavern room as probably around the size of the irish pub we have here in New Haven. It's not all that big, and it has a secondary room off to the side for private parties. Max capacity is something like 100 in the main room, 45 in the second one.

If I was seated at a table near the back, facing my companion who is facing the entry and a templar walked in, I would be completely oblivious. And so would my companion, because it's a crowded place. People standing by the bar obstructing our view, people making all kinds of noise at the other tables, clattering of dishes by the kitchen (you think that food just magically appears when you buy it?), etc.

EVENTUALLY I will notice that half of the front part of the room is suddenly standing up and becoming silent. And I'll look to see what the fuss is. IF the Templar hasn't already moved to the next room by then, I'll offer my respectful gesture. If not, oh well.

[Yasbusta]

Mr. pushover templar has arrived from the north
Mr.big nosed merchant looks at Mr.pushover templar
Miss long legged seductress looks at Mr.pushover templar
The large eyed youth looks at Mr.pushover templar

Everyone knows how it goes everyperson looks at the newly arrived person personally I hate this but it has been discussed many times before and has been given a nod. so if everyone notices Mr templar, and just about everyone types look templar then what should follow is
the humble masses rise from their seat, bowing deeply to Mr.pushover templar

but what one usually sees is maybe two people rise and bow.
Now you just looked at someone whom you probably shouldn't have looked at in the first place, and are not showing respect, off with your head. But I am a bit militaristic in my views.


Thanks for the replies so far, already seeing what some others think.

Yasbusta

[Bestatte]

Yas, I agree 100% with the last bit. If you look at someone, you are behaving intentionally in a manner which forces you to notice that person. Your character should react to noticing this person however you think is appropriate for your character to react. By intentionally looking, you are giving the other person the opportunity to make eye contact, and therefore should assume that it's possible that person will, in fact, notice that you were looking.

If it is -not- in your character's background to give respect to his superiors, then you also should accept the consequences for the slight. And as a noble or templar, I would hope to see consequences, at least in the south. The north is less rigid about such things, however, and it wouldn't necessarily be perceived as a slight.

On the other hand, even in the north, if I'm looking at someone and notice that he's a noble or templar, I *will* at the very least bow my head respectfully so that they understand that I'm a "good girl with manners."

Not everyone has manners though, and most of the population are mere commoners without proper lessons in diplomacy and ettiquette. An arched eyebrow, a disapproving frown, a mere gesture *should* correct that. No need to drag someone off and kill them simply because they're too mindless to know better. Give them a chance (however fleeting) to correct their error. If they still don't get it, off with their heads!

[Barzalene]

I agreed with everything Bestatte has said, except the following:

Not everyone has manners though, and most of the population are mere commoners without proper lessons in diplomacy and ettiquette. An arched eyebrow, a disapproving frown, a mere gesture *should* correct that. No need to drag someone off and kill them simply because they're too mindless to know better. Give them a chance (however fleeting) to correct their error. If they still don't get it, off with their heads!

I think everyone would know. You know how you walk down the street in the city, and there is some lady at the corner screaming at her kid, "Don't you EVER run into the street like that!" I think bowing to nobility is more a matter of self-preservation than manners.

On another train of thought entirely, when I was in the Coast Guard and just out of boot camp, I went a base (other than Cape May) for the first time. I saw someone coming. Was it an officer? Did I remember left from right? If I did it wrong would I be given push-ups and be berated? When I passed the officer he looked the other way, deliberately not see me, because he did not feel like saluting back. At a certain point, with all formalities, there is some acceptance of what is worth stopping work and productivity.

If a noble arrives with ceremony, the absence of the correct niceties are going to be far more glaring than when a noble walks in, in deep conversation with a couple of aides.  I think it is the other side of the person in the back not seeing the templar. Is the templar looking at the table in the back to see who is bowing or not?

Yes, all the commoners should be bowing. However, the subtle gradations of play make the world more realistic, not less.

[Bestatte]

Another thought, that actually came up in the game some time over the past few months:

Noble comes in without a generic "soldier" or "mercenary" guard, but instead with one or two NPCs with actual descriptions. Noble is wearing gloves, thus hiding their signet ring that identifies them without question as a noble. My PC has never met the person and has no idea who it is. My PC has no reason to know that it's a noble, until someone ELSE identifies them as such.

If I'm the only PC in the room, or I'm with someone else who also has never met the person, then neither of us should feel we have to bow to this person. He could just be a rich aide, or a servant or guard of the house wearing his uniform for all we know. Bowing to someone who is -not- a noble or templar could get you in trouble with the nobles and templars if they find out you're giving some commoner servant as much respect as you'd give them.

Yes, this situation really DID crop up, otherwise I think it would be too far fetched to use as a hypothetical exception to a rule. The noble did accept the unintended slight gracefully because he realized that he was -not- easily identifiable.

I just thought folks should keep that in mind.

Thanks.

[Rindan]

Personally, if a noble or templar wants to be treated like the nobility they are, they need to act like the nobility they are.  If a random Lord or Lady walks into the Gaj and takes a seat, they should not expect anyone to bow unless they are some how drawing the Lord/Lady's attention.  People in the tavern are not constantly looking around for the possibility that a person of status will walk in.  Even if people do notice, they are not going to bow in a wave.  People will quickly bow when they notice, and in all likely hood it would not be obvious that individual people are dropping bows from the other end of the tavern.

A noble or templar who wants an entire bar to get up and bow to them needs to act like nobility.  Namely, they need a servant to announce their presence.  A Lord/Lady that fails to do that should simply expect commoners to pass by with their head down unless addressed.  It is an OOCly silly double standard that commoners need to always bow, yet nobility act foolishly and outside of their protocol.  Unless your noble is built in his background to have the social grace of a Gortok, he should follow the norm.  If he isn't letting people know he is entering, then it is completely acceptable for the few people who do realize that it is a noble to avoid bowing because they assume the noble in question is trying to avoid attention.  Why else would he/she slink into a tavern like a commoner?

Further, if you are a Templar do not expect everyone to bow as they pass you unless they specifically imply that they passed close to you.  Read the description of Allanak.  The implication of many of them is that Templars are not an uncommon sight.  If whenever a templar walked past commoners had to bow, everyone would have a very sore back.  More reasonable is to assume that people who pass close to the templar make a quick little dip of the head style bow and hurry on without looking up.  Everyone else who passes and has some distance just avoids eye contact.

As to the mentality of nobles and templars themselves, I think people need to keep in mind their rank.  A normal family member or blue robed templar, while powerful, is not that powerful.  He is probably being presumptuous of his power if he expects the entire population of the Gaj to stand and bow to him.  That isn't to say that he can't demand that they do stand and bow, just that he shouldn't expect it.  Further, I personally think that he would be overstepping his bounds and authority if he did demand it unless there was a good reason.  Now, if a house head goes anywhere, or a Templar higher then a blue goes anywhere, it seems far more reasonable for them to demand more respect.  That said, they still need to act in their station and have their presence announced and not simply assume everyone is watching with eyes on the backs of their heads.

In the case of black robed templars and senators, then you should have people throwing themselves to the ground in terror.  I imagine a black robed templar would cause the crowd to drop as he passes.  Of course, seeing such people would be rare as their presence is disruptive to the normal order of business in the city.

[Malifaxis]

My humble opinion.

To start, I've worked security in a few bars.  Since I know there's a few people from MN here, I'll just use Ground Zero Nightclub in Minneapolis as an example.  It's a big, dark bar.  Industrial club (to give you a better picture) and the lower floor is kind of designed in a stretched S shape.  No matter if I was sitting at the bar, or wandering around, or wherever, if the door was in any way in sight, I would keep my eye on it.  Someone comes through that piques my curiosity, I'd most definitely check them out.  Why, because it was my job to keep out people on "The List" and to inform the other security members if we ever had any notable personalities (funnily enough, Prince used to stop by usually once a month, strangely fitting for this example) or police officers.

Now, in my career as a bouncer there, which was well over a year, I probably missed the entrances of about 20 people that I should have seen.

The Bard's Barrel has... what, max pop 100, to use the aforementioned example?  Ground Zero, on some nights (concerts and special events), would pack up to five hundred, but commonly averaged about 100-200 patrons.

I watched the door because I got payed... and it was in my best interest.  I missed a few people.  If my (censored) life depended on it?  I wouldn't take both eyes off of that door unless they were forcibly removed from my skull.

Also, on the subject of signet rings... just because you can't see a signet ring means you don't know they're noble?  Lets remember the status of these people... they're not celebrities, but they're pretty bloody close.  They're all the talk in the bars... "Ohhhh, have you seen the new sarong that Lady Hugeforehead of House Love-Hewitt is wearing?"  Even in the seedier establishments like the Gaj, people still talk about the nobility.  The nobles of certain Houses are even rumored to have the power to command the sun to rise and set... they are FAR better than the commoners, and everyone knows it.  Bad publicity, good publicity, it's all the same.

And if you were born and raised in the city the Noble is from?  Granted, there are tons of VNPC nobles per house, but bloody near every freaking noble I've seen has some sort of specialized livery that denotes them as 'above' some other members of the House, not just a ring.  Most likely, they wear silks or whatnot that are emblazoned, embroidered, runed, or whatever... these clothes are obviously far above the quality that any high-placed commoner servant would wear, let alone the common guards.

I am not saying that this gives the nobility a reason to go out and whack everyone that doesn't jacknife over when esteemed Lord suchandsuch enters, what I am saying is that there is a *damn* good reason that your character would crane around and oggle Lady Hugeforehead when she walks in with her two burly guards, whether they have 'veteran mercenary' stamped on the forehead or not.  It would be a lot like if, for example, Pamela Anderson walked in wearing her BayWatch gear, flanked by two massive Secret Service Men dressed in neon american flags.  You're not going to miss it, because 1: she's a celeb, and 2: her 'boyz' scream "Hi, I'm a really badass dude."

If possible, I think it would be a very good idea to add a 'style_allanak' section to the help files or something of the sort.  Something that would tell people (namely newbs) that servants of House Suchandsuch wear blah.  Nobles tend to wear blah, or blah.  Bynners wear brown abas.  And before it's blatantly pointed out to me, I know that there are mentions of crest etc in most of the House descriptions, I'm talking about a comprehensive listing that people could be pointed towards if they have a bit of trouble dealing with keeping the insignia and clothing of people straight.

And lastly, if anyone disagrees with the fact that I can spot Prince (who is, by the way, just over five feet tall) through a cloudy, dark room from a hundred feet away, then that's your prerogative.  I was able to do this for just over minimum wage and a tip split, not something as valuable as my own life.  I can do nothing to prevent you from being wrong in this case, and I apologize for having supernatural vision. (/sarcasm)

[Bestatte]

Regarding recognition:

I know the name of the mayor of the town I live in. I have no idea what he looks like since I've never met him and never seen him on TV or in the newspapers. I wouldn't know him from a hole in the ground if I bumped into him on the street or if he was my customer in the supermarket.

I hardly think he'd be offended if I didn't smile and say "Oh how honored I am that you've picked my line, Mr. Mayor!" Not because he's a nice guy (which he is), but because he realizes that it's impossible for people you've never met to know who the hell you are...unless you're wearing a sign that reads "I AM THE MAYOR" on his lapel.

I've never seen portraits that include descriptions of the current nobility or templarate in Armageddon, and most PCs can't read. I also know that even if a rumor on the in-game board says "The greasy-haired thin man" is a noble, that there are also dozens of greasy-haired thin men, and likely at least a few in that noble house's guard.

The sigil is the symbol of recognition for commoners. Otherwise they wouldn't bother wearing them. People who know who you are don't need to be told who you are - since, well, they already know. It's that metal band on your finger that screams "I AM SOMEONE YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO" to anyone who is within viewing distance.

I agree with the intial post.
People dont show the documented respect and fear they should.
Templars get casual or quick bows if that most of the time I see, when in actuality of the power-arm of the Sorcerror-King that rules over your life with an iron fist walked in and made himself known. like clearing hist throat or what not. people had better start bowing, and that is just what I picture someone said a 'wave' type thing. that is it exactly, everyone should be bowed before the templar esepcially the highest order one, until he either moves or does some dismissive gesture.

this might be especially aimed at commoners, obviously a respected liutenant of say... Borsail came in contact with a templar, maybe a humble bow then return to his seat, but a filthy commoner would expected be at the call of the templar until told they were dismissed.

Kinda like a king walking into a room, everyone stands in attention and bows. or whatever.

NOW ON THE STREET is different. they are busy and probably dont have time to dismiss every bowing patron they pass.

Anyways... I dont know. my opinion

[creeper386]

Mr. pushover templar has arrived from the north
Mr.big nosed merchant looks at Mr.pushover templar
Miss long legged seductress looks at Mr.pushover templar
The large eyed youth looks at Mr.pushover templar

Everyone knows how it goes everyperson looks at the newly arrived person personally I hate this but it has been discussed many times before and has been given a nod. so if everyone notices Mr templar, and just about everyone types look templar then what should follow is
the humble masses rise from their seat, bowing deeply to Mr.pushover templar

Now, I think it's people thinking like this that put TOO much emphasis on the look command. Like your staring at every person you use the look command with. Personally, most the time I use look and scan over the eq list to see if there is anything that would stick out and my character might notice. I hardly ever read long descriptions unless I'm involved with the person.

Now what does this have anything to do with it. There are LOTS of PCs with House emroderied silks and fancy armour. Most of them AREN'T nobles. Most the time the only way I can tell a noble out of even some common nobodies is the signet ring which more often then not doesn't seem to be visible.

Now, lots of time I'll be sitting at a bar IG or at a table or standing in a corner, and I won't bow when a noble comes in. Unless I'm approaching them, or I've been called forward or something, I won't normally bow. At least in places where it's more common for nobles. Barrel, especially Trader's not going to stand up and bow for every single noble that enters. Yes nobles are better, but commoners aren't omnipresent. Commoners aren't constantly on the look out for nobles and templars, maybe keeping an eye out for pick pockets but not always nobles.

I think I'm just going to have to wrap it up, saying that you should do whats APPROPRIATE. Bowing everytime any noble or templar enters the room your in is hardly appropriate. Which I've seen characters, seems like their WHOLE purpose is to bow to nobles. Most the time it's ALOT funner to play you character as your character. If he doesn't know whats going on or doesn't really know how to act around nobility, play it that way. Sure he'd know how to bow, but sometimes don't know more then that. I've had alot of fun playing out various things do to misunderstandings then I have playing the commoner that knows everything thats going on around him.


Creeper

[Malifaxis]

Has your mayor ever had anyone publicly flogged?

Things like that tend to draw notice to your social rank.

[Bestatte]

And another thing!!!

Okay so I bowed to you Mr. Templar when you showed up. You went to the other room, hung out for awhile yelling at a subordinate or kicking the shit out of the waitress for getting your order wrong or whatever. Less than 10 real-life minutes later you come back in. I ALREADY BOWED TO YOU. I ain't gonna do it every freaking time you rear your pointy little head in my direction.

I'm also not gonna bow when you get up, or when you sit down, or when you fart, or when you take a wiz.

I bowed the first time, you have seen that I have respect for your station in life. Let it go til tomorrow. Yes, you -are- a templar. But you ain't the Sun King. I save my grovelling for him, thankyouverymuch.

[Rindan]

I also want to quickly point out that it is doubtful if a noble/templar would even notice if someone did or did not bow unless they had a good reason to watch them in a busy place.  They might have simply bowed when you were not looking.  If you really are going to beat the shit out of a random commoner in a busy place who you do not know for not bowing when you walk in, you better pick a truly random one and ignore if he bowed or not.  Just because it is easy to see who bowed and who did not bow in a busy tavern OOCly, it doesn't mean that your character was able to watch everyone at once ICly.  If you beat the shit out of someone, then ICly,  you just picked some poor shmuch out at random and beat him up without bothering to check if he bowed or not.

[Kalden]

I'm new around here, and maybe I have some misconceptions about nobles and templar, but it seems like they are viewed as a bit more tyrannical than they have reason for. Killing someone for not bowing? That's just cruel. It is right that people should just bow automatically, and maybe they could be punished in some way for not bowing, but killing is quite extreme. I like to think that nobles aren't stupid, and that they won't do stupid things out of hubris. (On a sidenote, what is the official IC policy on bowing?)

Medieval nobility were often harsh, decadent, and overbearing, but they at least put up a pretense of justice and good sense. As often as not, or more often than not, the nobles and royalty were loved by their people. I'm not saying that you should be nice to commoners, though. I understand the usefullness of the noble tyranny in generating conflict, and that it is a thematical, but try not to follow the stereotypes dogmatically. I find that a good resource on a wanna be leader is Nicolo Machiavelli's The Prince. He teaches reasonable things about leadership that I'm sure the long-ruling nobility would have realized. I think they realize that they have to play on the superstition that nobles are better than commoners, and that deep down the nobility depend on the commoners more than the commoners depend on the nobility.

If your noble is devious, perhaps he could put on a good face for the commoners and try to earn their good opinion. It may be controversial, but it could be a powerful weapon and help a noble to become powerful.  He may be construed as weak, but that is just a bluff.

Your noble could actually be good-hearted deep down, with ideals of cracking down on criminals and stuff, but plagued by his conscience and the corruption that surrounds him. No one likes a disgustingly happy, friendly guy, so give him the regular vices and arrogance, or whatever to round out his personality. Perhaps he even empathizes with the poor people and wants to help them, and is a generous master to his servants and slaves.

Cruelty has to have a reason, and if you want to play a stereotypical noble or templar, give him an anger problem. Have the noble flip out and start ordering the deaths of those who insult him, or floggings or whatever. Perhaps he likes to have insolent people held down while he himself beats them with his fists. Chances are he won't survive as long as the more prudent nobles, but hey, its fun.  

Try to think about things rationally in your own mind but also emotionally in the characters mind. Most of the cruel, unjust things are done because nobles are nobles, but because they are arrogant and their emotions get out of hand. Its one thing to enforce harsh justice in order to retain the fear of the populace, but quite another to do obviously unjust things.

It is best to be loved and feared, but if you have to have one, it is better to be feared. Above all hatred must be avoided.

[Anonymous]

Ending a PCs life for not bowing is cruel.  But often times it is the result of the actions taken by the deceased PC, not the templar/noble that forced the situation.

I've played my fair share of leadership type PCs and my first go at a noble started out rather twinky as I was paying attention to every person that bowed or didn't, ignorant of the fact that public places were often full of dozens and dozens of people and my entrance might not have been noted and it really only makes sense to bow if you are approached or are approaching a noble/templar.

However, I never killed someone for not bowing the first time, and never wanted to see them killed for that.

I've played tons of PCs who didn't bow upon entrance of a Templar or noble, but would bow their pants off while being addressed.

I have a feeling a lot of the reports of people being killed for "not bowing" goes something along the lines of:

Noble/Templar enters, approaches the non-bower to discuss some other topic.
Non-bower responds to the noble/templar without bowing and with a tone that is borderline rebellious teenager.
Noble/Templar demands that the non-bower pay respects and bow.
Non-bower refuses due to some absurd notion of pride that the player has equipped their PC with.
Non-bower is subdued/attacked and makes a 'defiant' last stand.
Non-bower's player gets angry OOCly at the death of their PC and throws a tantrum on the GDB or IRC.

I've never, ever, been in a situation where a grovelling show of respect will not save your PC from death due to a social faux pax.

Having played a few nobles, I've ran into several PCs who would spit on my noble, throw feces on my noble, refuse to bow, etc, etc.

While I don't think a ton of prideful commoners is really the realistic output of the Allanaki social structure, I don't necessarily think those who want to disrespect a noble/templar are out of line in their play, but they really need to be aware of the consequences.

That being said, I would suggest that nobles/templars find more creative ways than death to dole out punishment when the situation permits.

Disfigurements can be wonderful plot creators.

[Anonymous]

Wow, I'm starting to think I need an alias for bowing... seriously though, I'm not quite sure the "Death to non-bowers" syndrome is quite as rampant as this post would have me believe, in fact I fail to remember ever witnessing an actual PC death as a result of this situation.

Sure, I've seen the occassional noble/templar who will bail someone out over not paying the necessary courtesies but I've also seen those who don't seem to require a whole tavern full of people grovel at their feet.  There seems to be a lot of suggestions being placed here for the players of nobles etc to act realistically in these situations but I think the suggestion should actually be for all players.

It is not realistic for a whole tavern full of people to get up and bow upon a persons entrance, it -is- realistic that those addressing or being addressed by a member of the nobility should do so appropriately - or be prepared to face IC consequences of their rudeness.

In all honesty I hardly think that the players of the nobles really care that much if you bowed or not.

**************************
The sallow, thick-necked Templar marks his leather scroll with his fluffy-feathered pen.

Winking at the thin, pasty-faced noble woman, the sallow, thick-necked Templar says, in sirihish "I got 25 bows today, beat that, Lady Mek"
**************************

[DrunkenSalarr]

A few things of note from my experience and ideas

1) On bowing to Templars:
    Using the Gaj as an example, not everyone in there needs to stand and bow to a Blue Robed Templar. Blues are probably quite common in the Gaj, kind of like cops comming into to clubs every now and then.  Blues would be bowed to as commoners move out of there way and when being addressed.

    Now, should a Red Robed Templar (or higher) walk into the Gaj, I think that all talking would stop fairly quickly and everyone would be bowing.  This is simply the way I feel it should be. A Red Robe deserves bowing and should take harsh measures if defiance is shown.

2) On the disrespecting of Templars/Nobles:
    Shortly after I started playing, I had a character that worked for quite a few people, some knowingly, some not so.  Among them were 2 Templars and 3 Nobles.  I was sitting in the Traders one day when someone (a commoner) came in and started hitting on a very well liked and very well respected noble.  Two Templars were in the room at the time, both were on very good terms with the noble. One of them "asked" the commoner to stop and when he didn't, the Templar "asked" again, this time informing the commoner that the girl was a noble.
    The commoner replied (quite rudely, I might add) that he didn't know anybetter, he was from Tuluk and just arrived in the city.  This took place very shortly after 'Nak had first taken Tuluk.  So for the insults, the rudeness, and for being a Tuluki, the Templar (a Borsail) threw the commoner down on a table and proudly announced that the bidding would start at 500 'sid.  This is perhaps one of my favorite memories of Arm.  (As a side note, that commoner became one of the best played slaves I've ever seen).  I feel that this story illistrates proper roleplay of relations between Templars, Nobles, Commoners and what one very likely possibility of resolution to disrespect should be.

3) On Player Killing because you can:
    PKing simply because you are above the law seems dull and detracts from the game in my opinion because there are so many other alternitives.  I know I've had a few characters get out of almost certain death situation because I RPed well (and most likely had the other players envolved rolling on the floor with laughter in one case).

Anywho, those are some of my thoughts on the subject.
~Drunken Salarr, who really misses RP sessions like the one mentioned above.