Clan Perks

[Rindan]

I was going to post the other clan topic, but upon reflection I think that this is a separate issue then what Hymwen brought up.

There is a perception that by joining a clan, you are basically stiffing yourself.  Sure, you get free food, water, and shelter, but you get a fixed stipend.  The value of the stipend is not dependent upon the amount given, but on how often you play.  The more you play, the less valuable your stipend is.  If you play 2 hours a RL week and every Armageddon night you hit the Gaj and buy an ale, then you will dumping 20 'sid per RL week.  If on the other hand you play 40 hours a week and every night hit the Gaj up for an ale, you are going to be dumping 400 'sid per RL week.  The more  you play, the less value your stipend is.

An independent's cash flow generally runs opposite of a clanner.  The more you play, the more valuable your income.  So long as your hourly income is greater then your hourly expenses, you make money.  If you play for only 2 hours in a week and make 50 'sid an hour after expenses and your nightly ale, you end the week with 100 'sid in your pocket.  If you play 40 hours you end the week with 2000 'sid in your pocket.

This difference in cash flow is what make clans seem like a rip off to a late of people.  Many people join clans regardless if for nothing more then a little action, interaction, and purpose, but it is widely viewed as a less then profitable path for relatively good reason.

I personally think that the solution is to make sure that all clans have alternative income sources that are "hourly" in nature.  This way, if someone wants to have a swig of ale every night despite the fact that they play 40 hours a week, they can.  What are some examples of 'hourly' income?

For some clans, the income is already in place; for others with a little scripting an "hourly" income could be added.

Kurac – Set up a clanned NPC that hands out one pinch of spice for every RL hour (or however many RL hours is "balanced") that they are logged on.  As soon as the spice is taken, the timer resets.  So, if I log on for two hours and after two hours go to get my spice, I get one and only one pinch.  If on the other hand I log on for two hours but get my first pinch after an hour, I could get another pinch an hour later.  So, I could get two pinches in two hours.  If at any point I log out, the timer stops.

The soldier can then do what they please with the spice.  They can either sell it back to the Kurac store, smoke it, or try and sell it to passing travelers.  It is a small enough amount that it isn't going to cut into Kuraci business if the soldier sells it, but it is enough where you could set yourself up a fair income stream or at least RP out a good addiction without going broke.

Noble Houses – Most noble houses have some 'product' that they sell.  Oash for instance sells wine.  Set up something similar to the Kurac NPC, but with wine.  Every RL hour or two a house guard can get  a bottle of refused Oash wine that can either be resold or drank.

I think you get the picture.  Under this system, each clan would have its own unique little perks that are hourly in nature.  Some clans don't really need this.  The Byn, militia, and some other clans already have some pretty solid 'hourly' style deals.  Some clans could certainly use something like this to make it so that spending more time in game doesn't feel like financial punishment.

[rishenko]

Clan Perk #1:  There is safety in numbers.  This is especially true if you are a warrior/ranger and often find yourself in precarious predicaments.

Cash flow problem?  Start seeking out other avenues of income.  Sell information, make some things on the side, do "special" work for the House, go above and beyond the call of duty, sell out your House to another clan.  There are a multitude of ways to make sid on the side, and though I'm not being elitist, I suggest sitting down, thinking it through and seeing what your character has to offer others outside the House.

As an aside to current House leaders, hopefully they will think of their underlings and offer them sid for doing projects or helping move things or other little piddly stuff.

[Gimfalisette]

As an aside to current House leaders, hopefully they will think of their underlings and offer them sid for doing projects or helping move things or other little piddly stuff.

I always appreciate it when a leader rewards good work with extra coin or items. It doesn't have to be a ton, but if you've got an employee who's playing a lot, doing good work, and being involved, then reward him or her!

Not to mention that keeping clannies happy with extra rewards makes them less vulnerable to wanting to sell you out to your enemies.

[Larrath]

Clan Perk #1:  There is safety in numbers.  This is especially true if you are a warrior/ranger and often find yourself in precarious predicaments.

There is almost always more safety when playing in a clan.  If I was playing a leader in a House, I'd discourage any but the most l33t hunters from singlehandedly hunting tembo or gwoshi, because a House is a business and it makes no sense to risk a valuable hunter just so they can get an adrenaline rush.  That often makes pretty dull hunting for the hunters after a couple of months.

Cash flow problem?  Start seeking out other avenues of income.  Sell information, make some things on the side, do "special" work for the House, go above and beyond the call of duty, sell out your House to another clan.  There are a multitude of ways to make sid on the side, and though I'm not being elitist, I suggest sitting down, thinking it through and seeing what your character has to offer others outside the House.

This is another problem; most House employees do no work other than what their House gives them.  Requiring that all PCs go beyond the call of duty will make everyone the exception to the rule.
And it's usually difficult for a leader to give special jobs to more than two or three competent people in their clan.  If there are seven underlings in the clan, most of them will have to resort to "selling information" and "being nasty traitors", and that tends to make leaders both paranoid and, after a while, OOCly weary.

As an aside to current House leaders, hopefully they will think of their underlings and offer them sid for doing projects or helping move things or other little piddly stuff.

This I do agree with.  The more tasks that can be given to clannie underlings, the more there is to do and the better it is for everyone.  Woohoo!

[rishenko]

Cash flow problem?  Start seeking out other avenues of income.  Sell information, make some things on the side, do "special" work for the House, go above and beyond the call of duty, sell out your House to another clan.  There are a multitude of ways to make sid on the side, and though I'm not being elitist, I suggest sitting down, thinking it through and seeing what your character has to offer others outside the House.

This is another problem; most House employees do no work other than what their House gives them.  Requiring that all PCs go beyond the call of duty will make everyone the exception to the rule.

And it's usually difficult for a leader to give special jobs to more than two or three competent people in their clan.  If there are seven underlings in the clan, most of them will have to resort to "selling information" and "being nasty traitors", and that tends to make leaders both paranoid and, after a while, OOCly weary.

By selling information I do not mean just about one's own house.  The drunken Bynner blathering on at the bar about his latest sexual conquest might overhear Lord Basil telling Lady Cloves that the package for Lord Cumin was almost ready.  The Byn, Trooper Paprika, takes this to Lady Mint who puts this with other pieces to the puzzle that she's gathered.  This Bynner, who simply told her that small phrase, gets 100 sid for his minor trouble.

One can also buy a few stones/branches/artifacts, cheaply, off some poverty stricken ranger then resell them to somebody else at a higher price.  There are many other avenues, and not all devious or subversive, that a House employee can take to gather extra sid beyond their paycheck.

[Rindan]

I don't disagree that there are other ways to make cash while you are city bound and clanned.  You can give me a loin cloth and a broken knife and I could start making money without using a single skill or leaving the city.  That really isn't my point.

Most of the things list as alternative ways of making money even when city bound and clanned are things that you can easily do without being clanned.  If anything, a lot of city based money making activities are significantly easier to do when independent.  The point isn't so much to put more 'sid in players pockets, but to reduce the perception that joining a clan is a way to penalize yourself if you play a lot.  

You can see the effects of the quasi-salary system that most clans use for payment.  Independents will come in from a hard days work, sit down at the bar, and buy an ale.  It is no big deal to buy an ale because they just made 50 'sid that day after expenses.  Next,  you see a clanner take his seat and eat and drink nothing, not even an ale.  This is a symptom of the larger problem that when on a fixed income, the more time you spend online, the less purchasing power you have.

[Gimfalisette]

when on a fixed income, the more time you spend online, the less purchasing power you have.

This is absolutely true. But I don't think a coded solution is the right one. Rather, I would prefer to see leaders rewarding minions with extra coin, pieces of armor, weapons, bottles of flame, etc. for work well-done. (I'm not talking super-awesome work either, just general competence.) This has the added benefit of making the minions think the leader is cool, which serves to help attract additional minions over time.

[Cuusardo]

The problem with making extra money in clans (on their own) is that the only way you can really do this is by using the money the clan pays you for other things.  Crafters can use their own money to buy materials, then sell what they make.  Thieves can steal things and sell them.  That's really the only way I can think of that you can do such a thing.  Most clans won't appreciate their employees whoring themselves, or going off to do work for other people, or going out to get their own materials.

Clan leaders can always give bonuses and things, but a lot of times (especially with nobles) that is limited to the amount of money they get in their monthly stipend.  Nobles and templars certainly do not have unlimited funds, and the sad thing is that despite the larger number of expenses an independent has, they can still earn more money in a month than a clanned, a noble, or a templar.

[Beux]

More money to nobles and templars!

[Medena]

Most of the things list as alternative ways of making money even when city bound and clanned are things that you can easily do without being clanned.  If anything, a lot of city based money making activities are significantly easier to do when independent.  The point isn't so much to put more 'sid in players pockets, but to reduce the perception that joining a clan is a way to penalize yourself if you play a lot.  

Since when did everyone's focus become accumulating coins?  Perhaps that is the goal of many Zalanathans although there are probably just as many who are more than satisfied with just having shelter, food and water and have no ambitions to become fabulously wealthy.  However, the premise of this thread seems to be that it is we as players, rather than as our characters, who have the primary goal of finding pursuits to garner us coins.

To me, the biggest perk of clan life is its source of ready made plots and people to RP with.  This perk is why I have always been in a clan.

[jstorrie]

Once I crest a thousand or so coins in the bank money really stops being important to me. At that point the greater access to game plot that a clan allows more than makes up for the restricted movement and lower pay, in my mind. What good does making 1200 sid a day do you when you have nothing useful to spend it on?

[Gimfalisette]

My impression is that a LOT of players focus on coin as a means to acquire newer and better weapons and armor, so that they can go out and kill harder stuff, thereby making more coin so that they can acquire newer and better weapons and armor...etc.

I've always been perfectly happy once I had the basic stuff to keep my character alive and use/train their skills to best advantage. Sometimes I do get a yearning for "cooler" looking stuff, but mostly I am able to ignore that, because as Medena and jstorrie have mentioned, plots are so much more fun to pay attention to.

[LoD]

Since when did everyone's focus become accumulating coins?

For most of the civilized and Known World, coins are the resource used most often to handle our character's basic needs: shelter, food, water, and clothing.  It likewise serves to provide for many character wants: security, power, property, respect, or fame.  It even further serves to meet some of our player-driven wants: to further plots, purchase a unique or interesting item, to have our character's clothed in a way that is appealing to us, to obtain property that best protects our investment of time, represented in game by the possessions and life of our character.

One of the issues I notice bleeding into my own play is the need to hoard coins to be financially secure, not by the terms of my character, but by MY RL terms as a player.  I might forgo spending money on an unnecessary ale, meal, or smoke off the spice pipe if it means having a few extra coins tucked away for a rainy day; a notion that I find better placed in our RL than in a world such as Zalanthas.  That isn't to say our characters shouldn't be practical or frugal with their spending, but more that not all of our characters should be that way.

Thus comes the dilemma; do I serve the bulk of my needs, wants, and desires by accummulating as much coin as possible, or do I compromise with myself to provide the best balance between them in a way that contributes to the storyline in as meaningful a way as possible.  Clans provide many perks greater than those we can drink, eat, or wear.  As others have mentioned, a greater potential or visibility for plots, a more organized collection of players with which to play, a sense of direction and motivation from a source other than yourself, and the imposition of certain rules or laws that generally result in a longer lifespan, if followed.

Are the perks of a given clan enough to make this compromise worthwhile to a given player?  That depends upon the person.  Obviously some clans are better suited than others to making that compromise more worthwhile.  Perhaps it is the amount of Immortal attention they receive, the freedom to leave at the player/character's will, the potential IC power attainable by its members, the hard coded rewards gained by membership, the reduction in the cost of living, the availability of supplied deemed necessary to a given profession, it's different for each person.

I would argue that the clans which boast the most consistent numbers are the ones containing the "perks" most commonly considered as "good" by the majority of the playerbase.  I don't feel any particular need to see changes made to make the clans more appealing than they have been throughout the history of the game, but it'd be an interesting experiment to see which factors could make the largest difference in a clan's ability to attact and retain its members.

-LoD

[jmordetsky]

The number one benefit to a clan is the connections you form to other players. You can do this in an independent setting but not as easily.

The IC bonds I've had to other players in my clans have always significantly out wieghed the bonds my indy's have had with other indy's save for on two occasions, which I feel were very rare.

For example, when you are in the Byn and you come up with people as runners and a few of the runners you started with stay alive and go on to become troopers. Those IC connections are so huge and they are very difficult to replicate outside of a clan.

[Marauder Moe]

My wealthy characters usually hoarded their coins for political weapons/protection.  They tried to keep enough a few templar-sized bribes in the bank... or payments for templar-sized contracts.  Usually they end up managing to just talk their ways out of trouble, though, or justify the expense as business related and get the boss to pay for it.

[Clearsighted]

By selling information I do not mean just about one's own house.  The drunken Bynner blathering on at the bar about his latest sexual conquest might overhear Lord Basil telling Lady Cloves that the package for Lord Cumin was almost ready.  The Byn, Trooper Paprika, takes this to Lady Mint who puts this with other pieces to the puzzle that she's gathered.  This Bynner, who simply told her that small phrase, gets 100 sid for his minor trouble.

Heh.
That's also a good way for Trooper Paprika to get her ass kicked by her fellow Bynners if she's lucky, or find herself in a much more lethal situation by herself sans fellow Bynners if she isn't. Taking sides with the nobility and being their little minion or Barrel buddy has never worked out well.

[Gimfalisette]

I totally disagree with you, Clearsighted, unless you mean merely that being a -Bynner- while being the pawn of an upper-cruster never works out? I've seen pawns, I've been pawned, and it can work out very profitably and non-fatally. Never tried it as a Bynner, but I don't see why it might not work. Obviously, though, pawns need to have some discretion and be smart in order to make the coin and avoid bodily harm.

[Clearsighted]

I totally disagree with you, Clearsighted, unless you mean merely that being a -Bynner- while being the pawn of an upper-cruster never works out? I've seen pawns, I've been pawned, and it can work out very profitably and non-fatally. Never tried it as a Bynner, but I don't see why it might not work. Obviously, though, pawns need to have some discretion and be smart in order to make the coin and avoid bodily harm.

You're more than welcome to disagree with me, but there are some clans or occupations that being an upper-cruster pawn is alot more awkward than others.

A Sergeant isn't going to like it if a Trooper is freelancing or spying for a noble. That's a good way to get the whole unit in trouble. Troopers aren't going to like it if their Sergeant is a toady for a noble because A) It's unlikely the Troopers will benefit from it, and B) if the Troopers know, than all the other nobles will know so less jobs around. Furthermore, it is a good way to get killed by being more concerned with politics than your unit. A VERY good way.

It is also unlikely, given the nature of the Byn, that it'll be a secret for long.

So my point was...Being an deceptive, toady little snitch is alot easier for Jonny Scorpion or Billy Borsail than Trooper Paprika.

[Grey Area]

A Sergeant isn't going to like it if a Trooper is freelancing or spying for a noble. That's a good way to get the whole unit in trouble. Troopers aren't going to like it if their Sergeant is a toady for a noble because A) It's unlikely the Troopers will benefit from it, and B) if the Troopers know, than all the other nobles will know so less jobs around. Furthermore, it is a good way to get killed by being more concerned with politics than your unit. A VERY good way.

I don't think I've ever played with a Byn Sergeant with particularly noticeable scruples. Sergeants are just as corrupt as everyone else - offer sarge a cut and I doubt he'd care less. They also don't have to care much about what their troopers think.

Alternative income for Bynners is not that hard, and if you keep missing contracts you're probably going to need another source of coin. They have the advantages of moving around a lot, as well as spending a fair amount of time around people from a wide range of different organizations. And since the Byn already includes the dregs of society, there is not much you could do to lower the tone of the unit. Smuggle spice, move hot property, shake down halfbreeds for their lunch money, etc. You can hide it from your sergeant, but most likely your sergeant will already be involved in his or her own racket anyway.

[Clearsighted]

A Sergeant isn't going to like it if a Trooper is freelancing or spying for a noble. That's a good way to get the whole unit in trouble. Troopers aren't going to like it if their Sergeant is a toady for a noble because A) It's unlikely the Troopers will benefit from it, and B) if the Troopers know, than all the other nobles will know so less jobs around. Furthermore, it is a good way to get killed by being more concerned with politics than your unit. A VERY good way.

I don't think I've ever played with a Byn Sergeant with particularly noticeable scruples. Sergeants are just as corrupt as everyone else - offer sarge a cut and I doubt he'd care less. They also don't have to care much about what their troopers think.

There is a difference between doing something moderately shady and giving the Sarge a cut and being a deceptive, cutthroat little bastard spy/minion that just happens to keep a locker in the storeroom. The former can do well. The latter don't live long. You can say the same for a Sarge that doesn't give a damn about the Troopers in their unit. A Sarge ain't a Lieutenant, afterall. You're still spending and living 99% of your time with the rank and file.

The point being, spies/pawns making their way into the Byn for a bit of sparring practice and a place to bunk down and eat tend to be a sid a dozen. My sole observation is that they tend to have an extremely short life expectancy. Sarges who dabble too much in politics tend to have a short life expectancy as well.

I've seen several use their cunning to make a small profit on the side while putting the Company first though. Those who put the Company last usually die first. It's a simple equation. Mentioned solely because a Byn trooper was used in the earlier example, and the Byn is probably the Clan where getting mixed up in such is most unprofitable.

[Grey Area]

There is a difference between doing something moderately shady and giving the Sarge a cut and being a deceptive, cutthroat little bastard that just happens to keep a locker in the storeroom. The former can do well. The latter don't live long. You can say the same for a Sarge that doesn't give a damn about the Troopers in their unit. A Sarge ain't a Lieutenant, afterall. You're still spending and living 99% of your time with the rank and file.

Ah well, yeah. Absolutely. No sergeant is going to waste his time with anyone not pulling their weight. But as long as you keep your nose clean with the unit you can probably get away with a lot of shit.

And an unpopular sarge is definitely setting himself up for a knife in the back and a impromptu burial in the latrines. But hey, if he can't keep his group browbeaten into submission, he's not much of a Byn sergeant anyway.