Being a critic!

[YellowCactus]

I hate Critics!  They're the worst sort of deadbeats.  That said, I've noticed that some Templars are pandering with the Byn more than one would expect.  

The Allanaki bars tend to swing a bit between the Gajak and Barral as players move around, but lets remember that the Byn are trash.  They're Mercenaries of ill repute.  

Lets treat them like second hand citizens, and Bynner elves, no matter the rank are elves in the end....
-yc

Fecking Critics!  All talk, no play!

[Bebop]

The Byn is a usable nuetral resource of mercenaries available to anyone who can pay the fee.  While the soldiers maybe broke - they are trained specifically for that purpose and it's a leader's job to keep role play going for their subordinates.  As a templar your subordinates are pretty much all of the citizens under you - that includes the Byn.  While a Templar wouldn't be flirting with a Bynner shitcloak no, that's not to say they wouldn't  utalize a resource available to them that could offer them an advantage in their endeavors.  To NOT use the Byn when it would be benefical would be stupid.

[Clearsighted]

I have no idea what the original poster is even getting at. Templars spending time in the Gaj with elven bynners?

[jmordetsky]

I think elves in Kurac and in the Byn that have been around a while and prove themselves to be midly more "humanized" then other tend to get a little bit more slack from the powers that be.

In my experience anyhow. And rightfully so.

[Bebop]

The elf should be afraid of the Templar, not vice versa.

[X-D]

Gajak?
I thought is was the Gladiator and Gaj tavern.

And You might want to look up the term "ill repute" It does not mean second class.

Now, look at it from a templar or even noble's point of view.

True, I have many guards and soldiers under me. But each one of them cost a large amount of coin to outfit and train them the way I want them and they are loyal to me (hopefully). Why would I risk several thousand coins per soldier on something when I can hire a mercenary company, arguably the best around, even if they are low life shitcloaks. and perfectly loyal to the coin I offer. And that coin is less then the cost of a single one of my soldiers? Not to mention the time lost if one of my soldiers dies. And hey, if the mercenaries fail, I don't have to pay the full fee and all mine are safe and if they succeed but lose a few, who cares, there will be more to hire next time. Least I don't have to train the replacements.

[Agent_137]

the byn, ICly, are a hardened and skilled fighting force available to the highest bidder.

Granted, they do not have as much social prestige as a merchant clan, but they are only just below that, and definitely above an independent commoner with his thumb up his ass.

Why? They are a huge organization of fighters, easily the 3rd or 4th largest army in the known world. They should be treated as such.

Nothing is more trite than some indie talking trash about the Byn.
"Get a job, kankfecker!"

[YellowCactus]

Your right, who am I to call a Gaj a Gajak.  Your right, I'm wrong, the Byn are the 4th largest army in the world and Templars should wait around for them and just be happy the elf shows up.
-yc

[X-D]

Not so much a matter of right or wrong...but what was the point exactly?

And If the templar needs the byn for something then his choice is to either wait or....hhhmmm, not much else to do. Use his own soldiers or forget about it altogether.

Heh, course, if I was playing an elf, no matter what standing, and a templar calls me, I'm not going to show up, no way no how.

If I was playing the templar I'd be amazed if one did. Not like elves don't know most humans basicly hate them. And Templars are not most humans. They Are Nobles, that work directly for the Highlord, with silly powers and who's word is law.

And By the way, your not calling A Gaj a Gajak. You are calling a tavern which IS rightly named the Gladiator and the Gaj. or even Gaj for short, the Gajak, which is in no way the correct name, even if the correct name for the beast often known as a Gaj is a Gajak.

So sayeth the Nit-picky critic.

[Tarx]

Not so much a matter of right or wrong...but what was the point exactly?

I agree...I am not seeing much of a point here.

[corona]

I think people might not get treated all fancy by these templars, thus feel the need to degrade them oocly so they can try to feel better about the situation. Anyhow.. templars are not bound to talk to one persons and stay in one place, they go where they think they ought to and talk to whom they need. Thus, shedding light on why templars are so roxxors in their soxxors, cause they will do what they see fit.. sometimes they see repercussions, sometimes not. Sorry fellahs.

[Ardan]

Surely this is an IC complaint that you can pursue IC'ly?

Anyway, that aside I'd agree with X-D in that the Byn are there to be used. A templar can send off a group of them for a very reasonable price at no risk to either themselves or their hires. Why not make use of that? Templars make use of all kinds of people - Bynners, 'rinthers, militia, independents, etc., etc. If they choose to treat a person or group well because good work has been done then that is entirely up to the Templar and any gripes should be raised IC'ly in my opinion.

[YellowCactus]

What's the point?  There is no point, I'm just being a feking critic.

Surely this can be persued ICly?  Nope.    

-yc

[Cenghiz]

I didn't get the point.. If a Lord Templar decides gemmer X is usable, he uses him.. And gemmers are worse then elves, Bynner or not. It's been experienced -more than once even with my characters- that templars behave some useful 'rinthi rats, bynners, gemmers, God knows what worse as they would behave to some good tools. That's the way it should be. If something's useful to me, I'll use it. Period.

[Xygax]

Just a point of clarification:  the Byn are nowhere near ranking among the largest armies in the world (not even top 4 or top 5).  They are a small, private, mercenary organization that happens to have a large PC population.  That should not be taken as a measure of their virtual size.

-- X

[Agent_137]

Just a point of clarification:  the Byn are nowhere near ranking among the largest armies in the world (not even top 4 or top 5).  They are a small, private, mercenary organization that happens to have a large PC population.  That should not be taken as a measure of their virtual size.

-- X

I wasn't counting a bunch of tribals with spears.

That said, i guess I was grossly overestimating the size of the Byn. Alas.

Care to weigh in on their virtual political power, instead of just their size?

[Cale_Knight]

Virtually, I imagine the Byn does its very best to stay as apolitical as possible. If they started throwing any kind of political weight around they'd end up risking their status as a neutral resource.

[YellowCactus]

Generally speaking the Byn's virtual political power flows with the PC's that interact with (in) it.  Sometimes the characters are right in the middle of world changing events.  They do have more than one place to hang their aba's within the known world.  That is something.

Lots of PCs in powerful places are ex-Bynners.  That can be good (or bad) for politics too.  But the organization is known through the world to accept and cultivate soldiers that would not normally be able to find a place in House Noble House organizations.

-yc

[Larrath]

I don't really think the T'zai Byn has such a vast political power, unless it's a time of war.
If there's a war/skirmish going on between Allanak and Tuluk, both cities are going to want the T'zai Byn to side with them, and the Byn will get temporary power by their ability to pick either side.
The T'zai Byn might not be the most elite army in the world, but even a rag-tag group of unlikely heroes/mercenaries can make a serious difference, especially when it's a few dozen such groups.

Political power is generally measured by how much an entity is able to affect one of the Key Players in Zalanthas - Black (or even Red) templars, high-uper Senior Nobles, Merchant House leaders, the elders of major tribes, the general populace (at least ten thousand commoners) of a city, and also the Poet's Circle in Tuluk.
The Merchant House leaders aren't likely to care about the Byn, since they have their own small armies doing their bidding, and while Joe Agent Kadius can't send 20 Kadian hunters to pick him fresh flowers every day, Jack Magnate Kadius could send 200 hunters to pick him fresh flowers while wearing silk skirts and playing on pink bone flutes.
Senior Nobles have the same thing - a Junior Noble can't generally send large units after dangerous trivial pursuits, but a high-ranking one can.  Military-minded Senior Nobles (especially Tors) are likely to care about the Byn, but only to a limited degree; after all, the Byn also operates in Tuluk.
I'd imagine most tribes have no real relationship with the T'zai Byn, or at least no use for the T'zai Byn.  Relations would either be hostile (seeing the Bynners as frequent intruders) or neutral, in most cases.  Elders in powerful tribes have no real reason to care about them much.
A wide-spread influence on a city's populace is a force that can't be ignored...but since the T'zai Byn does nothing in the ways of charity, festivities or other forms of entertainment, I don't see how they could motivate 10,000 unaffiliated commoners at the same time.  Anything less than 10,000 commoners isn't likely to give a Black Robe much pause.

So the T'zai Byn is only really important to the Templarates, and even then pretty much only during times of war, and also to the people that rely on the Byn frequently - largely uninfluential nobles, low-ranked merchants, and independents/tiny businesses needing escort or per-hire hunters.

The T'zai Byn cannot acquire significant political power in both cities (the Templarates/Nobilities wouldn't let that happen), and it cannot acquire significant political power in one city while remaining welcome in the other city.  Therefore, the T'zai Byn's political influence (outside times of open war) is moderate at best, possibly even less than that of a single Trade Ministry red-robed templar of high standing.

[Doppelganger]

Larrath, I agree that Byn has no real influence. I disagree, however, that Byn has limited use for Noble and Merchant Houses.

Unless they are House Kurac, House Tor or House Lyksae I doubt they maintain large standing army beyond their everyday needs. They do hire guards to protect their property and family members. They do hire other armed men such as hunters, slavers, caravan guards, scouts, etc.  Their property is huge and needs are many, so they do have more swords then T'zai Byn. Yet all these men are supposed to do certain jobs they are being paid for. Like any real life organization, no House should keep, train and pay horde of men 'just in case'. If a need for doing odd job arises, they hire professionals.

Yes, Father to House Kadius has power to send twenty hunters to pick him flowers or die in search for Pink Demon Cave. He also has powers to send crafters hunting and hunters crafting, but is it logical and practical? Why waste trained men to do something they are not used to do if you can hire a unit of mercenaries who are trained to die for the handful of sid? In meantime, hunters will do their job and will bring enough hides to pay mercs, that's in case if they return at all. Yeah, PCs are slightly different, anyone with sword goes hunting tandu in the morning and evil sorceror in the evening, but I doubt VNPCs do the same.

Where Junior hires a single unit to clean the road of gith, House Head is able to hire a whole Company to wipe out a lesser tribe. Like any other tool, mercenaries are of use and in demand for anyone who is able to pay. T'zai Byn doesn't have as much influence as Great Merchant Houses because they don't have a monopoly in their business; they are just one of a many, perhaps a little bit bigger than some.

And, unless we talk about Grand Final War, I think Byn should be very careful when openly choosing sides, unless they want to loose half of their business.

[Larrath]

I didn't mean to say that the Noble and Merchant Houses have no use for the T'zai Byn - I agree with Doppleganger's post.
The thing is that, as far as the House Seniors are concerned, the T'zai Byn itself makes no real difference.  If a House Senior wants a dangerous mission to be done without endangering House employees, the Senior can go to one of his subordinate Juniors and tell him to find outsiders to do the task.
Provided that the task doesn't require a large force (more than twenty people, which would probably suffice for taking down a single large mekillot), putting a solid crew together shouldn't be difficult.  It wouldn't be as easy as contacting a Byn Sergeant, but it won't be much harder than sending an aide to the Gaj to look for twenty people in armor that don't look very stupid.

When more dangerous things are concerned - taking out gith outposts, or small tribes, the T'zai Byn is truly at its most useful.  However, these things are pretty rare as it is, and it's probably just as easy to find a competing tribe and help it destroy the enemy tribe/outpost.

The T'zai Byn has an extremely solid reputation as far as sellswords go, but in the end of the day, it's just a well-organized brute squad.  They're useful, but they have very little political clout during times of non-warring.

[Clearsighted]

The Byn's quality tends to go through cycles.

When you get one or two good and active sergeants, and have a handful of reliable, veteran troopers (I.E that aren't lured into a steady gig after a year or two)...There isn't much you're going to find in the waste, barring a truly monstrous magicker that they can't steamroll.

In fact, I would say that a /good/ veteran Byn unit would make mincemeat out of most Kuraci, Scorpion, Borsail or Militia. This is because your average veteran Bynner has seen alot more action than your average Wyvern or Scorpion recruit. And it seems like the best fighters in either outfit are always ex-veteran Bynners. I'm not talking about ye olde Sergeant, a new striper, and a fistful of pressganged Runners. But a real, solid unit of veterans that managed to survive and stick together. 4-5 10-20 day warriors and the odd ranger who've spent most of their character lives adhering to the 'schedule' get pretty brutal. Alot more so than a 20 day Wyvern or Scorpion that spent most of the time chatting up Katie Kadius at the barrel.

When the Byn is at it's best, it's really amazing. No contract is too tough. When it's at its worst, you can usually find em at the base of the shield wall...sparring.

[X-D]

No harder then going out and finding twenty people in armor that don't look too stupid.

LMAO

That my friend is EASILY the hardest thing to do in the game.

Because if you do, they will be wearing either a dun cloak, a brown aba, a steel grey cloak or purple armbands etc etc etc.

[spawnloser]

Um, Clearsighted...if no job was too big, how'd they die?

[Agent_137]

They ran head on into a sorceror and his gith army. They won, but the lieutenant fell in toe to toe combat with the sorc.

Then, the unit slowly drifted apart.

True story.

[Cale_Knight]

Clearsighted's post is mostly true, but can be substituted for any PC military group in the game.

Everything goes in cycles. There have been militia units and Kuraci units and Borsail units that have been ridiculously good as well. It all comes down to who happens to have the current stock of PC warriors.

[LoD]

The T'zai Byn has an extremely solid reputation as far as sellswords go, but in the end of the day, it's just a well-organized brute squad.  They're useful, but they have very little political clout during times of non-warring.

While I agree that the T'zai-Byn doesn't have the political clout that a Great Merchant House would hold, I think it's somewhat short sighted to write them off as simple grunts that have absolutely no business or links to the political scene.

Consider, for instance, that many Houses and organizations will send potential recruits through the Byn as a "testing ground" for would-be super soldiers.  They want to make sure the person has what it takes.  As with any business transaction, the least amount of middlemen results in the best deal to be struck.  Thus, merchants, templars, and nobles would all prefer to work through a single contact.  That relationship can often blossom into a political connection due to favors that the Byn officer may have done for those people.

There are opportunities within the tenure of a Byn Sergeant, and especially amidst the officers, for one to lend a helping hand to powerful individuals that may in turn provide you with some political assistance.  They are in a position to serve a wide variety of people with something people have to respect, a trained martial force that answers to you.  The Byn travels more often than most city-based Houses, they have contacts in multiple villages and cities, hear rumors from many sources, and contract with several business, sometimes in direct competition with one another.

The T'zai-Byn isn't just a bute squad.  They're an expendable and independant resource whose commodity can be a hundred times as valuable as a steady supply of silk given the appropriate circumstance.  Granted, these situations are few and far between and it's rarely the Byn's place to become involved.  However, it might be premature to label them as an apolitical player on every level.

Consider that several of the Byn's capable leaders, having proved themselves in the field, are highly recruited for elevated positions within Merchant Houses, Noble Houses, and the Militia.  All of these people have likely served under the same Commander, and the longer they'd remained a part of the Byn organization prior to departing, the more of a connection they'd feel to this person.

So while I certainly agree that your average Bynner wouldn't have much political clout, nor a reason to play at politics, be careful in writing off every single member of an organization.  It's nearly imppossible to survive in an environment like Allanak without playing the political game at one level or another.  They might only have a handful of players, but they would likely surprise you in what was possible should they decide to call in some favors.

-LoD

[Clearsighted]

Um, Clearsighted...if no job was too big, how'd they die?

Heh, like I said. Barring meeting a truly monstrous magicker. Possibly while in an HRPT. I'd say aside from player's just getting bored and quitting, that's how most of the /great/ units end.

[jstorrie]

I confirm Agent_137's tale. That unit was totally rad.

[X-D]

Most the great units start with a good to great leader and fade away when they Die/retire.

Sad to see when you are the one that had the leader and you think you have set up the unit well enough that even if you die one of them will be able to take over. Unfortunatly, this is almost never the case.