combat...still a little flaky?

[jmordetsky]

I was recently p-owned by a n00b warrior, i thought perhaps that it was just due to my general not-log-inedness, but then a close associate mentioned that his 100+ day combat pc (yes, I did say 100+ day) was decimated (like 3hp decimated) by two rentarri.

I mean, harsh is harsh, but rentarris?!! It's been a while since ive toed to toed with a rentarri but my general opinion of them was that if all the mobs on ARM were sent to prison, rentarri's and trigels would be on the less then consenting receiving end.

So I want to bring this back up for discussion. Are the players happy with this? Are Imms happy with this?

Can we just put it back?

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I like the new combat system. I can be a newb and still have a chance to kill someone. And if I'm not a newb, I have to be wary of anyone holding a weapon.

Burn the skill system - everyone's a level 51 warrior now and I love it!

You just need to think of Armageddon as something akin to that text game that came out recently, called "Dwarf Fort". You're destined to die, but it's exciting to watch the story before your brains get splattered all over the place from a lucky hit to the head.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Also, half-giants rule the day.

If you have karma to make one, go make one and hit the nearest armed PC/NPC to see what happens.

Before, you would miss a lot due to low agility, but with the new code, you don't really miss so much, since everyone can hit everyone.

And before people misinterpret my posts as bitter sarcasm, I want to clarify that I love the new code. The idea that anyone can attack anyone now and it can lead to a fatality, even if it's 100 day vs 0 day, is plenty cool to me. I am very into the idea of everyone being massacred at the swing of a weapon to the head. I gave even more thumbs up to the previous code before the minor fixes, where my character was swinging a trident and halberd around and kicking serious ass, without having any of the weapon skills for the weapon type.

Bring back the old version of the new code, where people couldn't parry! I want to use the trident and halberd again.

[jmordetsky]

I knew I was going to regret this post.

[joyofdiscord]

I haven't experienced the new code firsthand, but it sounds like just what the doctor ordered, really.  I remember yawning through round after round after round (after round after round...) of parries in arena matches between warrior PCs, and I thought, this just doesn't feel the realistic, gritty, brutal combat that this mud should have.  Now, with how everyone's describing it, I feel like combat is finally going to be painful, confusing, and quick, which it should be.

[Agent_137]

I like hard, brutal combat.

I'm not a big fan of -fast- combat.

This is both.

Whatever.

[rufus]

You're destined to die,

It sucks when a well-established character goes down the plumbing.
Not just your own, anyone's, someone you interacted with, conflicted with, etc.
I find that when I finally start having fun, I get eated by a tregil.

[spawnloser]

Having experienced the combat code recently, I'm a fan of it.

I love the daze code, having been both dazer and dazee.

I love the fix to the defensive skill bug, having been both defender and defendee.  (Though, I'm not sure if defendee actually works well as a noun.)

People now actually have to worry that a noob may get off that lucky shot, which should ALWAYS be a possibility.  People have to keep in mind that just because they have 4 more days on a combat character than another character, it doesn't mean they are impenetrable like they used to be.

In any game I've ever played, there is always the chance that the lucky can prevail over the skilled, and I thoroughly LOVE that this is now the case on Armageddon.

Keep in mind that, according to staff, the skilled will still more than likely still own the non-skilled.  It just leaves the option of the lucky accomplishing something lucky.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

It sucks when a well-established character goes down the plumbing.
Not just your own, anyone's, someone you interacted with, conflicted with, etc.
I find that when I finally start having fun, I get eated by a tregil.

Armageddon is the HnS of roleplay-enforced MUDs, which is one of the reasons it's so popular.

Spells that X? Spells that X with no way to avoid either? Poisons that X? A single swing to the head being able to collapse your character? There are so many ways to die instantly in this game, and no effort made to change them. Why? Because this is the way Armageddon has been since it was introduced as a roleplay-enforced MUD. It's the HnS of roleplay-enforced MUDs. This newest code change just shifts combat towards being as brutal as the rest of the game is.

You know, I've always found character creation lifespans in Armageddon to be somewhat comical, considering all our chars manage to live years and years, but are almost destined to die in the first year we play them. This MUD isn't so much about making that "legendary character", than it is about making those "legendary moments". Sort of like, uh.. the Animatrix DVD with its small clip segments and short character lifespans.

EDITED by Halaster to remove IC information.

[FightClub]

Sort of like, uh.. the Animatrix DVD with its small clip segments and short character lifespans.

I don't think faces of death would cover some of the stuff I've been through and done.

[UnderSeven]

To be fair, I don't think the poster is off the wall in making a post, but I do think the context needs to be considered.  That being none of us really know what that context is.  So many factors could be involved in this and there is that not every npc is created equal to my understanding, varation exists even between two of the same kind.

My point is this.  This isn't a great discussion topic because we the players involved do not know the specifics at all, it would of been better sent straight to staff to look into via an email or better yet, the request tool.

[Barzalene]

F/O please edit your post. Too much info. Thanks.

[Bakha]

I mean, harsh is harsh, but rentarris?!! It's been a while since ive toed to toed with a rentarri but my general opinion of them was that if all the mobs on ARM were sent to prison, rentarri's and trigels would be on the less then consenting receiving end.

Sure you're not confusing rantarri with ritikki?

[Delirium]

When a brand new combat character, non warrior class, can regularly land hits on an extremely accomplished and long-lived combat character, it feels a little like cheating.  It feels jarring and unsettling that they suddenly have a prayer against someone that should be chewing them up and spitting them out for lunch without a second's pause.

At the very least, I would like to see consideration given to tweaking the defensive skills of the long-lived characters that are affected by this change - they should not be at the disadvantage (due to a bug) that they are now.

[Halaster]

I think the combat system is just fine now, personally.  After looking at your PC, jmordetsky... yep, it works just as it should.

[Clearsighted]

When a brand new combat character, non warrior class, can regularly land hits on an extremely accomplished and long-lived combat character, it feels a little like cheating.  It feels jarring and unsettling that they suddenly have a prayer against someone that should be chewing them up and spitting them out for lunch without a second's pause.

At the very least, I would like to see consideration given to tweaking the defensive skills of the long-lived characters that are affected by this change - they should not be at the disadvantage (due to a bug) that they are now.

I currently have a PC who fights a wide range of other PCs, both of equal skill, much greater skill and much lesser, on a somewhat daily basis.

I haven't really noticed anything different, except a couple hits here and there. And I certainly haven't seen it affect a win or a loss. Except possibly, with a half-giant who only needs to get 1 hit in. And well, fighting a HG is just sort've one of those things you need to accept as always potentially fatal no matter your greater finesse.

So yeah, after participating in or watching 20-30 different fights, all I've noticed about the combat change is that fights tend to end quicker than they used to (Which is nice, actually, if you've watched a 15 minute spar before) and every now and then, someone will go to 'relatively fit' instead of excellent condition.

Might help poisoners some.

[Halaster]

I'ved had to edit two posts to remove information that should be kept IC for people to discover.  Please be careful when posting.

[Hot_Dancer]

Are shields working properly? Since the change I havn't seen one hit go through my shield armor location like it did before. (with apparently reduced damage)

Nor have I seen hits bounced off a shield-like armor location.

Hot Dancer

[Kelamson]

Are shields working properly? Since the change I havn't seen one hit go through my shield armor location like it did before. (with apparently reduced damage)

Nor have I seen hits bounced off a shield-like armor location.

I've seen both, with a character that didn't do much combat. Also had a couple of straight-forward fights and one that my character was winning but had to flee from due to a lucky head hit by an opponent.

I still give the code the thumbs up, although admittedly I haven't seen how it affects ueber fighters.

[Halaster]

Are shields working properly? Since the change I havn't seen one hit go through my shield armor location like it did before. (with apparently reduced damage)

Nor have I seen hits bounced off a shield-like armor location.

Hot Dancer

Yeah it works, maybe you're just having bad luck.  But it's more likely to totally block a blow than absorb it, like it used to (i.e. it's better than it used to be)

[Hymwen]

After quite a bit of sparring since the new shield code went in, I haven't seen one "hits you, barely grazing your shield" type of thing. I have however noticed a lot more full blocks than before, and even my fresh new warrior PC can frequently block two attacks per round. I like this, shield use has been made into something seriously good, and dual wield is the all-out offense tactic that it should be, with appropriate disadvantages.

[najdorf]

If shields are not anymore taking blows arent they going to become "used", "cracked", vs.
I would personally like to see shields shattering and crackling into unusuable pieces in combatant's hands, just like weapons do.
what kind of a shield can block a skilled HG warrior's brutal attacks? A sturdy one may be, which IMO cant be produced easily with Zalanthan raw materials.

[LoD]

One of the things I always enjoyed about the combat system prior to the change was that a mundane combat PC was capable of reaching a point where they had little to fear from any single humanoid opponent engaging them in melee who was not of equal or greater ability.  With enough time, training, and effort - they were able to attain a level where tactics might be needed in order to take them down hand to hand if they were armed and ready.

There were still plenty of dangers inherent in the gang code, monster critters kicking/bashing for 50 health, backstab, poison, ranged combat, and obviously, magick.  It was still plenty easy to run into some trouble if you went poking about in bad places, even if you were one of these uber fighters.

It was this way for years, perhaps even a decade, and I don't feel as if the story suffered much as a result.  So someone was able to blow through some gith after 10 days of powergaming?  Big deal.  Is it really hurting the storyline all that much?  Were new players leaving by the droves because practiced combat PC's were pwning them in sparring matches?  There are simple ways to discourage unrealistic behavior (i.e. fighting bahamets, mekillots, silt horrors) that don't involve changing a model that's been working pretty well for quite some time.

What I miss is the depth and potential disparity between fighters that existed with the bug.  Using a shield made a big difference, which it really does if you've ever fought anyone.  Combat was a bit slower because there were more parries, blocks, and dodges, which I really don't see as a bad thing because it gave way to more potential story.  Tactics to bring down one of the long lived fighters of the Known World were needed in order to have a chance, which meant that you actually had to think about what you were doing instead of just getting some friends together or having a high strength score.

I understand the arguements made for the change, and I agree with some of them.  However, I don't really feel that it made the MUD a better place or a better environment for storytelling.  Stats become more important to success in combat.  Fast typing becomes more necessary for survival.  Combat becomes a much more dangerous and scary choice, which I know some people think is as it should be - I get that - but this is a fantasy game where people enjoy trying things they wouldn't do in real life.  

The previous code drew out combat a bit, which I know some people probably complained about when it was abused (i.e. 30 minute sparring matches), but I think that it also helped provide time for people to emote actions, communicate with one another, and develop a scene rather than typing flee and having one finger hovering over it after combat ensues.  Whether this change will be for the better or worse won't be easily seen until some time has passed and players have been able to expand under the new sets of rules.  However, some of things that I always enjoyed about the game are now different, and we'll have to see if the story benefits from the change.

-LoD

[Morgenes]

If shields are not anymore taking blows arent they going to become "used", "cracked", vs.
I would personally like to see shields shattering and crackling into unusuable pieces in combatant's hands, just like weapons do.
what kind of a shield can block a skilled HG warrior's brutal attacks? A sturdy one may be, which IMO cant be produced easily with Zalanthan raw materials.

Even a blocked blow damages shields, and they will splinter apart over prolonged use.

[Clearsighted]

LoD,

It is pretty much the same as it ever was before. I do not think a single veteran warrior has lost a match that he wouldn't have lost before this was implemented.

I have in fact seen a veteran warrior quite recently devastate three other warriors who were all fairly skilled in a 3 on 1.  If this change was such a big deal as to significantly punish an experienced fighter, I do not see how this would be possible.  All I have personally noticed is that new players who wouldn't normally get in a single hit, tend to get one weak blow in if they're lucky.

So like I said before. Unless you're fighting something massively strong (like some NPCs or a HG) this won't be an issue. And there have been more than a few complaints raised about people soloing some of the huge NPCs anyways, which this addresses a little.

My own philosophy when it comes to combat is that just like in RL, you should rely on teamwork, rather than expect soloing to be the norm. If you're fighting something dangerous one on one, you're pretty much already lost half the battle. Even hunters and gatherers should adhere to this more, IMO, though I understand, that owing to the limits of a mud and people to RP with, people need more soloing capacity than is realistic.

[Chronicle]

I have to totally agree wth LoD, especially about the part where stats are effecting combat to a degree which I believe to be -too much-. Agility for a person now gives them a HUGE edge over combat. Even with someone with just a little more agility than you will now -beat- you after the code changes in a sparring match, where before hand you would beat them. I've noticed also that I get less attacks in per round, dunno why but it's just like that. But I'm not complaining becuase it's all the same to me, doesn't effect how I play or the things I do IC, because if you don't go out and do stupid shit that would be unrealistic for most people IC and OOC alike, then you won't have to worry about the new code's 'disadvantages'.

[jmordetsky]

I think the combat system is just fine now, personally.  After looking at your PC, jmordetsky... yep, it works just as it should.

Well it's good to know it at least it's working as planned. To be fair, I'm less concerned about my pc getting beat down as it's still fairly young as I was when I heard about the older character.

That said, UnderSeven has a point and that inquiry is best suited for an email. I just want to hear opinions now that the tweaks have been in place for a few days.

[jmordetsky]

I have to totally agree wth LoD, especially about the part where stats are effecting combat to a degree which I believe to be -too much-. Agility for a person now gives them a HUGE edge over combat. Even with someone with just a little more agility than you will now -beat- you after the code changes in a sparring match, where before hand you would beat them. I've noticed also that I get less attacks in per round, dunno why but it's just like that. But I'm not complaining becuase it's all the same to me, doesn't effect how I play or the things I do IC, because if you don't go out and do stupid shit that would be unrealistic for most people IC and OOC alike, then you won't have to worry about the new code's 'disadvantages'.

That's odd. I agree with LOD as well, but not with the observation that agility gives advantages. It seems to me that strength now plays a key role in that because it's easier to hit, you can accumlate much more damage much more quickly.

I'm not sure if that's wrong, but it's what I see.

[Gimfalisette]

I think it's probably still to early to tell what the ultimate fallout of the parry bugfix/change/whatever it was is. If characters' defensive skills were artificially low in comparison to their offensive skills due to the bug, then I doubt anyone has played enough yet post-fix to bring their skills up in line...so yeah, them noob characters are probably going to get some blows through. I suspect this will even out over time as the experienced characters bring their defensive skills up to par with offensive, and things will begin to look different and feel more logical again.

Then again, just conjecture.

[Chronicle]

I concur Gimmy, that's precisely what LoD said in his first post about this as well - that if everyone continues doing what they've previously been doing than the offense will eventally level out with the defense once more. It -is- just like starting almost all the way over defense wise, so it doesn't bother me at all. Afterall, skills aren't everything :-P

[Dalmeth]

When a brand new combat character, non warrior class, can regularly land hits on an extremely accomplished and long-lived combat character, it feels a little like cheating.  It feels jarring and unsettling that they suddenly have a prayer against someone that should be chewing them up and spitting them out for lunch without a second's pause.

The thing is, despite a few scratches, the experienced character is still chewing them up and spitting them out.  I'll admit, lucky hard hits are a bit more common, but most characters can take one or two of those.

Also, a note about ritikki :  Those things have always been a bit dangerous.  I'd personally never would have taken on two with a character capable of taking down duskhorn even before the change.  They had a way of getting in lucky hits, and I would think that's only worsened with the bug fix.

[Halaster]

I think the combat system is just fine now, personally.  After looking at your PC, jmordetsky... yep, it works just as it should.

Well it's good to know it at least it's working as planned. To be fair, I'm less concerned about my pc getting beat down as it's still fairly young as I was when I heard about the older character.

If it's really true that a 100+ combat-oriented person was beat up by a newbie warrior, please have them email me and I'll look into it.  That shouldn't be the case, but without more information, I can't do much.

[jhunter]

I think LoD has made some excellent points that I agree with.

[a foreign presence]

Dunno exactly how the code works, but as for strength vs. agility, here's my observation:

Strength gives you higher damage and helps with a few skills such as bash and subdue, however the size of your character means a lot more there. It also helps you carry more, thus allows you to wear more/better armor before meeting the encumbrance penalties.

Agility gives you more attacks so in terms of damage output, I think it pretty much evens out with strength. It also helps your defense tremendously, as well as almost every skill, even non-combat ones.

So looking at it like that, I'd say that agility is more important than strength.

[Clearsighted]

Dunno exactly how the code works, but as for strength vs. agility, here's my observation:

Strength gives you higher damage and helps with a few skills such as bash and subdue, however the size of your character means a lot more there. It also helps you carry more, thus allows you to wear more/better armor before meeting the encumbrance penalties.

Agility gives you more attacks so in terms of damage output, I think it pretty much evens out with strength. It also helps your defense tremendously, as well as almost every skill, even non-combat ones.

So looking at it like that, I'd say that agility is more important than strength.

Agility and height seem to have a disproportionate influence on bashing rather than strength. In my sparring with an elf who started the same time I did, he has been able to 'meet my charge' and knock me down pretty much every time. Far more skilled and older PCs have never done that to me. I'm pretty certain if strength was a major (or greater factor) than height, it would not have happened. At least, versus an elf. And this isn't an isolated incident. It is pretty much every time.

Kicking and disarming is all agility as well.

I'd like to see bash take weight into account, moreso than height. Since should mostly equally skilled elves really be reverse-bashing down say, dwarves, with such impunity? Dwarves weigh a couple stone more and are supposed to be nearly as broad as they are tall.  That's really something I'd expect more from trying to bash a mul or hg.

That said. It doesn't bother me. It only matters in 1v1 sparring. I don't think I'm ever going to be in a 'real' fight decided by it. Those tend to be messy and one sided.

Unless you're the desert-wandering loner type.

[jmordetsky]

I think the combat system is just fine now, personally.  After looking at your PC, jmordetsky... yep, it works just as it should.

Well it's good to know it at least it's working as planned. To be fair, I'm less concerned about my pc getting beat down as it's still fairly young as I was when I heard about the older character.

If it's really true that a 100+ combat-oriented person was beat up by a newbie warrior, please have them email me and I'll look into it.  That shouldn't be the case, but without more information, I can't do much.

By two rentarris, not a n00b warrior.

Yes it's true, I'm not in the habbit of making things up to nag you.

And I'll ask them to mail you.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Agility and height seem to have a disproportionate influence on bashing rather than strength. In my sparring with an elf who started the same time I did, he has been able to 'meet my charge' and knock me down pretty much every time.

Bash is all about size, in my experience. Elves dominate bash because their size category is significantly higher than the other playable races (aside from half-giant). Check out "help size" for a size chart that will show you an actual coded representation of why elves are dominating in bash contests. The elves are a lot bigger than the other races by coded size category, even if their weight is not extremely high. Dwarves have a -horrible- time bashing, even though they are probably the best grounded of the races. Essentially, an elf will knock a dwarf around easily in bash contests, even if the dwarf has the much higher bash skill.

Also, on the topic of strength vs agility and what is more important in the new combat code, I'd have to say that agility used to make characters nearly untouchable with the old code. If anything, the new code makes high agility less "the deciding factor", because it's easier to hit people overall. It makes strength more dominant because hits are landing more often now. So I'd have to say strength became more useful in the new code, while agility is now more rounded with strength for combat, instead of being _the_ stat at "end game" combat, where high agility elf warriors were untouchable in combat at uber skill levels, being beatable only by kick attacks, if they managed to land. Before the code changes, matches against these uber elves could take more than twenty minutes to resolve, because you couldn't hit them as a non-elf, and if they hit you (still difficult for them if you had high skill), it was for low damage on that rare hit. Something had to change. I think the new system both reduces the effectiveness of agility, and makes combat more interesting. The snore-fest parry matches where kick was the deciding factor are now out of the game.

[UnderSeven]

Makes since what Flaming Oct said, but that to me seems like bash is therefore a little broken.  Should elves dominate bash?  Not really, they are tall which means high center of gravity and they are light, thin, lithe, slender, in other words, they don't have the mass.  Therefore someone slamming into them just right shouldn't result in them bouncing off.

Okay maybe bash isn't broken, but I would say that's an error in the implementation of the skill.  IF that is how it works.

[Clearsighted]

In my opinion, we need a wider range of weight, and weight needs to have as much of an impact on 'size' as height does.

[Dalmeth]

If elves dominate in bash, bash is broken.  Elves may be tall, but they're lighter and significantly weaker.

In my mind, the reason height was taken into account was due to the fact that in humans, being taller generally means you are stronger and weigh more (bone and muscle mass).  There is a slight mechanical advantage as well, but that shouldn't make elves naturally superior to say, a human, in bashing.

[Kalden]

As others have attested, bash seems to be broken. I recently had a stocky, beefy human warrior (exceptional strength, very good agility) who, because he was somewhat short (70 inches?), was knocked down every time he bashed an elf or anything else that was taller than him. He was heavier than the elf in question.

Realistically short, strong people and things would have an advantage when tackling tall, skinny things. It's too bad that's not how Armageddon works.

[jhunter]

Dwarves should be badass at bash compared to spindly tall elves. It always bugged me that a built-like-a-brick-shithouse dwarf sucked at bashing others that were simply taller than them.

[Morgenes]

If possible, could we move the bash dissussion to a separate thread and keep this thread on the topic of combat itself.  Yes, I know bash is used in combat, and can make a major difference in combat, but what you guys are talking about is important, and should be brought up as a problem with bash, and might get lost if left in a thread like this.

[House Rising Sun]

It was two rantarri, not ritikki.

The fact that parry stunted defensive growth in pcs, warriors especially, was pretty widely known beforehand. They started with it, maxed it quickly, and soon enough nothing was hitting them any more, except group-fighting situations, mounted attacks, really really scary mobs, and the one-in-a-hundred lucky hit. Without a weapon, however, they were about as helpless as merchants.

I agree with LoD, as I saw little wrong with that final stage of the parry skill. If two highly skilled armed fighters went at it, they'd be a little while. For me, that made those sort of encounters really exciting, because it opened up all sorts of brutal combat emote opportunities.

If one fighter was unarmed and some dude came at him with an axe, there's not much he could do but run or get cut apart.

Now, even with parry up about as high as it's going to go, I'm seeing more attacks by lesser threats get through than get parried. Fact is, if you take a weapon to a master - not just a hobby fighter or an sca participant, but a real professional martial artist or fencer - you're never going to hit them. I think I can safely say none of us would.

The rapid growth of parry is still a problem, though. Consider the nature of it: to be effective, it has to be a totally reflexive action, yet it's not an intuitive thing to do when you're under attack. To work at all it has to be drilled over and over again. I'd suggest a different learning curve, making it much harder to pick up at first. Once a pc starts to 'get it', it increases more rapidly through the middle range until a point where it seems to be effective now - that is, useful but not 100% effective. Beyond that, development could flatten out again so that only after a whole lot of fighting (ic years) does it become mastered, and around the same effectiveness as before.

That sort of change would allow dodge and/or shield use to develop earlier and become the primary method of avoiding damage, as it should be.  That means anything as simple as springing backwards to get out of range, or just backing away as soon as an attack is sensed and thus preventing it, much like boxers. That's often how serious fights start out, and the first thing people learn.

Like delirium and lod have indicated, very highly experienced fighters should be feared for their scary-high defense, not the ability to dish out more hits than a rookie.. after all, if they survived so long on Zalanthas they must have learned something reliable about not taking the D. It should take planning, surprise, or numbers to hurt somebody like that, not luck and a really big-ass halberd.

[X-D]

I also agree with Lod, but I've made the same statement as he did in this thread when the bug was first fixed.

Now, that being said, I find the current combat code incarnation to be pretty workable in realism and playability. Two evenly matched warriors can once again spar/fight for some time. BUT not exactly as before. Here is a point that I find to be a bit more realistic then it used to be. Before the bug fix, two basicly equal 1day warriors and two basicly equal 50 day warriors looked much the same when fighting. The 1day warriors could spar for a long time because though they had poor defense they also had poor offense and would not hit each other often or for much damage.

Two 50 day warriors had high offense but matching defense, so also would not hit each other often, though usually for far higher damage when they did.

Now two 1 day warriers beat the crap out of each other as the inexpertly flail at each other.

Two 50 day warriors have high offense but matching defense, so also do not hit each other often, though usually for far higher damage when they do.

I find that this gives slightly higher realism without much noticable damage to playability.

(edit)
And I'm getting plenty of combat code experiance with my current PC and I like House Rising sun's idea and agree fully.

[Synthesis]

I'd just like to point out that anyone thinking he should be able to take on two RANTARRI (not ritikki) by himself should probably go back and re-read the description of what a rantarri actually is.  Then, you might understand why two of these things would (and should) tear almost anyone to shreds.

[Bakha]

I'd just like to point out that anyone thinking he should be able to take on two RANTARRI (not ritikki) by himself should probably go back and re-read the description of what a rantarri actually is.  Then, you might understand why two of these things would (and should) tear almost anyone to shreds.

That was sort of my point as well. I didn't understand what the big deal was about someone being unable to take out two rantarri solo. They're not exactly tregils.

[jmordetsky]

I'd just like to point out that anyone thinking he should be able to take on two RANTARRI (not ritikki) by himself should probably go back and re-read the description of what a rantarri actually is.  Then, you might understand why two of these things would (and should) tear almost anyone to shreds.

After training at combat on zalanthas for 110+ real days, do you know how many game days that is? Come on.

Mas Oyama a korean marshal artist from the 50s. If you google "Mas Oyama kill bull" apparently this dude punched a charging bull in the face and kill it. There is supposed to be a video of it somewhere.

The point being, If an earth guy can train enough to punch a bull in the face and kill it, a zalanthan at 110 day should be able to kill two Rantarri. I'm sorry, rantarri aren't *that* tough. We're not talking about Meks, or salt worms or bahamets here. And we're not talking about 10-15 day character here (although I think they've gotten it the worst).

Let me try to state this a fully as possible:

If a well trained, combat char (burglar, assassin, ranger, warrior) at 110 days of play can't solo two rantarri, gith, raptors any mid-size, midly dangerous m0b, then *SOMETHING IS BROKEN*.

The crazy australian used to wrestle crocs for fucks sake. (rest his crazy soul)

[Dalmeth]

After training at combat on zalanthas for 110+ real days, do you know how many game days that is? Come on.

Mas Oyama a korean marshal artist from the 50s. If you google "Mas Oyama kill bull" apparently this dude punched a charging bull in the face and kill it. There is supposed to be a video of it somewhere.

The point being, If an earth guy can train enough to punch a bull in the face and kill it, a zalanthan at 110 day should be able to kill two Rantarri. I'm sorry, rantarri aren't *that* tough. We're not talking about Meks, or salt worms or bahamets here. And we're not talking about 10-15 day character here (although I think they've gotten it the worst).

Let me try to state this a fully as possible:

If a well trained, combat char (burglar, assassin, ranger, warrior) at 110 days of play can't solo two rantarri, gith, raptors any mid-size, midly dangerous m0b, then *SOMETHING IS BROKEN*.

The crazy australian used to wrestle crocs for fucks sake. (rest his crazy soul)

You're examples don't fit the situation.  They probably were in a controlled environment, especially so if they were filmed.  Not only that, but they were one-on-one.

A large part of the skill in a skilled fighter is not getting into bad situations.  Like a two-on-one.  It's just a dumb thing to do.  Especially on open ground where they can easily circle and surround you.

So your d-elf can't take on a couple rantarr at once, so what?  They're supposed to be frail.  Play with a hint of caution.

[Gunnerblaster]

So your d-elf can't take on a couple rantarr at once, so what?  They're supposed to be frail.  Play with a hint of caution.

Yup, yup. Here's a little quote from the help_elf:

"Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak."

[jmordetsky]

You're examples don't fit the situation.  They probably were in a controlled environment, especially so if they were filmed.  Not only that, but they were one-on-one.

A large part of the skill in a skilled fighter is not getting into bad situations.  Like a two-on-one.  It's just a dumb thing to do.  Especially on open ground where they can easily circle and surround you.

Okay, so lets take Rantarri out of it then. Do you think a 110+ ranger or warrior should be able to handle a two on 1 from 2 desert elves? Or 2 gith? By your rational the answer would be no.  Which is just silly.

How are you guys not seeing this? We're not talking about me or you, or our 10-20 day characters here. We're talking about someone who at 110 days of play, with the right stats should the equivalent of a zalanathan bruce lee.

Bruce Lee would beat the pants out of two "averages" which is what most humanoid npcs should be. They might be are tougher then 10-20 day pcs, but not 110 I'm sorry.

Facing off with a 110 PC *should* be as utterly frightening as facing off with Mike Tyson or a UFC equivalent.

Taking this a step further....just to clarify. A 110 day mage with half a brain and some time to prepare is near unkillable.

[spawnloser]

Taking this a step further....just to clarify. A 110 day mage with half a brain and some time to prepare is near unkillable.

Well, yeah.  Who said that a X-day this class vs same-day other class should ever be an even match?  This game isn't about making sure that everyone is equal.

You've read the description of a rantarri, I am assuming.  For those that haven't, it is a predatory creature roughly at the size level of the great cats in the real world.  Two great cats vs one dude.  Seriously, picture that and tell me that the dude should be able to mow through them.

[flurry]

Let me try to state this a fully as possible:

If a well trained, combat char (burglar, assassin, ranger, warrior) at 110 days of play can't solo two rantarri, gith, raptors any mid-size, midly dangerous m0b, then *SOMETHING IS BROKEN*.

No way.  For a warrior, okay, I agree.  Otherwise, maybe yes, maybe no.  I played one such character, and situations like you describe are nothing new.

[jstorrie]

If this happened after the defense normalization, I'll point out that though the character was at 110 days, his defensive skills had been artificial stunted - and as such when the defense code was normalized he would be much more vulnerable than his play-time would suggest, until he again rose to where someone who put in 110 days starting now would be. So it is entirely possible that a 110-day warrior can take on two rantarri at once, though it sucks that your friend got the short end of the turn-over.

[jmordetsky]

Let me try to state this a fully as possible:

If a well trained, combat char (burglar, assassin, ranger, warrior) at 110 days of play can't solo two rantarri, gith, raptors any mid-size, midly dangerous m0b, then *SOMETHING IS BROKEN*.

No way.  For a warrior, okay, I agree.  Otherwise, maybe yes, maybe no.  I played one such character, and situations like you describe are nothing new.

Okay. I thought rantarri were the winged dudes in the grass lands and as it turns out, I am a tremendoo jackeess. I'm big enough to admit this.  Soooooooo.....with a slight blush.....I restate the above...

If a well trained, combat char (burglar, assassin, ranger, warrior) at 110 days of play can't solo two gith, raptor any other mid-size, midly dangerous m0b, then *SOMETHING IS BROKEN*.

From what I hear a rantarri does not fall into the category of mid-size and midly dangerous....so, I apologize.

[flurry]

Heh.  I hate to say this, but actually I was thinking of gith.

[jmordetsky]

Heh.  I hate to say this, but actually I was thinking of gith.

Really? Think about it though. 2 Gith...reasonably trained vs a 110 ranger, lets say he's been in the byn or something.

You really think the 2 gith would take him down? At 110 days of byn training the ranger would on par with a great hero of zalanthas. He should shred 2 gith. He should shred 3 gith.

*double checks the gith desc*

Yes. Shred.

[spawnloser]

I dunno, Joe...gith come in different varieties of strength/skill.

[Synthesis]

Considering tests of strength and fighting ability are a pretty central part of gith culture, I'm surprised the gith NPCs were so weak.

I think your average gith raider should be just as dangerous (if not more dangerous) than your average NPC soldier, or at least on a par with other "guard" NPCs throughout the game that are patrolling or guarding a certain bit of territory.

I suppose that's neither here nor there, though...and with the new combat code, I can't really comment on how difficult they are now.

[jmordetsky]

I dunno, Joe...gith come in different varieties of strength/skill.

Yes...I was thinking run of the mill gith... but see below.

Considering tests of strength and fighting ability are a pretty central part of gith culture, I'm surprised the gith NPCs were so weak.

I think your average gith raider should be just as dangerous (if not more dangerous) than your average NPC soldier, or at least on a par with other "guard" NPCs throughout the game that are patrolling or guarding a certain bit of territory.

I suppose that's neither here nor there, though...and with the new combat code, I can't really comment on how difficult they are now.

I disagree. I mean, *yes* there are powerful gith out there who would be "heros" and uber l33t in their own right and generally there should be a few of those out there. But they aren't a elite race of Mul-like creatures...

...right?...

I'm assuming a gith follows the sort of begining middle and end of skill levels as do Delves, dwarves and humans. Granted they will be hardened to desert life, that doesn't mean their population distribution in terms of who is a BAMF and who is not a BAMF would that far off other races.

Anyway...The example given is two run of the mill desert crawling gith npcs (as coded now) are chillin. Along comes 110+ ranger (note: not warrior) and he goes H2H with the 2 gith.

Imho...he should leave with two skulls and some minor cuts. A 110+ ranger should be a frightening melee BAMF. A 110+ warrior should be a rediculously frightening melee BAMF. A 110+ assassin should be a pretty f-in scary melee BAMF and a 110 day buglar should be pretty BAMFy as well.

I am dishearted if they are not.

[Forest Junkie]

I've had rangers and warriors at 20+ days played who could take on up to three npcs/pcs, albeit no RANTARRI, if they were properly prepared.

* If a 110 day warrior who is highly branched got pwnt by a pair of absolutely NASTY critters (check the docs, they are fairly tough even one on one) I'd say that yes, something is broken.*

However, in taking into consideration that defense has been tweaked to be more realistic now, I'd say that the code was fixed rather than broken.

I've not been able to personally test out these new tweaks to the code, nor did I have a powerful or highly branched combat-oriented pc when the tweaks went into place to be "in the know" as to how bad old pc's were ass fucked. I can only close with an "I'm sorry about your pc." Believe me, I know what it's like losing an amazing, long lived pc to what you consider faulty code, or new buggy coding.

I think with time the new tweaks will be more accepted by the playerbase once long lived pc's begin "catching back up." Just give it time everyone. I think it'll be a'right!

[Good Gortok]

I'm not strictly against the new combat code, I think it has brought some good things, but as the player of a newly created hunter PC I want to chip in with my own experiences. This is not coming from a Byn warrior who spars once an hour or a well-established ranger who could raise his skills before the changes went in. The ranger I created two days ago still hasn't found anything he can kill. The things he probably would be able to take down flee when I enter the room, and the things that don't - well, I can't kill them. Maybe it's my somewhat under average stats, maybe I'm not wearing good armor or I could be doing something else wrong. I'm not trying to wrestle with raptors, carru or tembos, the things that are beating me are hawks, bamuks and other small critters that I thought represented the things that new hunters could take on with a decent chance. I don't like the thought of having to join a clan and spend a good while sparring before I can even begin to play a small-game hunter.

Like I said, I'm not against the changes as a whole, but in light of the new combat code perhaps some of the smaller animals should be toned down?

[Agent_137]

I don't like the thought of having to join a clan and spend a good while sparring before I can even begin to play a small-game hunter.

Why not? Is that not more realistic? The critters in the zalanthan wastes aren't rabbits. They're freaking beasts.

Also, if the stuff you can take down runs away, perhaps you should consider a ranged weapon? Or working in teams?

With all due respect, it sounds like a lot of the people speaking against the changes are just moaning about not being able to do it the old way.

well, suck it up. The old way was BROKEN. This is the proper way.

Adapt and Survive. Or Don't. Welcome to Armageddon.

[Hot_Dancer]

Hint: Try a shield.

Hot Dancer

[Anael]

Dunno, but... in past, I had a funny problem with certain NPCs. They couldn't hit my PC and I couldn't hit them, because of high defenses on both sides. Usually, the fight degraded to 'who kicks the other one to death first', or even more dull variations on this story involving bash, disarm, etc. Now, these predicatble fights became much much more interesting.

I didn't notice any downsides. I like the fact that even highly skilled warriors have to be careful around multiple beasts because well... sorry, but the term 'Zalanthan hero' made me snicker. There's no untouchable superheros.

Except mansa.