Half Giants: Cookie Cutter?

[Clearsighted]

So it seems every half giant I've ever encountered is played in the exact same  'hideously strong retard puppy' idiom. There does not seem to me, to be as much challenge in playing one, as there is in any of the non-karma races. They all seem to have the 'good natured, 'vaguely confused' and occassional 'hulk smash' thing going. I thought that half giants learned by watching others.

Didn't they ever watch someone whom was serious or tried to act with dignity? I walked up to a half giant whom I thought was a mean looking, serious fellow, and I got the same slack-jawked yokel shit-eating grin that seems copy and pasted by now.

If it weren't for the sdesc, it'd be hard to tell some half-giants apart.

So do people who manage to amass 3 karma just go through a half-giant phase where they don't need to worry about the stuff they used to and just lean back and enjoy the strength?

[WarriorPoet]

I've seen very few well-played HG's, but they exist. Most of your common halfgiants seem to be 'Lenny' characters, without the depth...

My own HalfGiant sat in the Gaj for maybe ten minutes, with me staring at the keyboard trying to figure out how to make him not so cliche. Thankfully I was retired to play a sexy gypsy almost immediately. I cringe when I think about how that character would have turned out.

-WP doubts he will ever play another HG. Dumb and easily-led doesn't do it for me at all.

[Reiloth]

I personally think half-giants should be removed as a playable race.

Wow, what a crack up. Andre the giant with the intelligence of a five year old.

From the docs:

Roleplaying: Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbors), depending on the circumstances. Half- giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

Above it says:

From their giant kin, half-giants have inherited incredible size and strength, and their endurance is matched only by muls and sturdy dwarves. However, possibly due to the magick which birthed half-giants, they are infamously stupid and have very low wisdoms. In addition, because of their great size, half-giants are typically slow to move and have low agilities. Half-giants, because of their great size, cannot usually wear clothing or armor designed for smaller demihumans.

Nowhere in here do I see: You should play this huge mongoloid as if he were completely retarded. In fact, you've amounted 3 karma, so we trust that you'll fully understand how to "dumb down" your roleplay. So fart a lot, try to make your character as funny as possible and cute with how dumb he is. It'll be a gas for the PC populace near you.

...

At one time, I saw potential in half-giants. I thought they would be played as if they were incredibly slow at understanding concepts, but once they got it, they'd show everyone how 'smart' they were. Like explaining sex to a half-giant make make for some interesting, hilarious roleplaying. I took their inherent curiosity to mean that everything another person would talk about, would enrapture the half-giant. Anything the half-giant had the remotest idea about, he'd be suddenly genuinely interested. I didn't envision half-giants as being a blank slate, and when you tell it somthing, it just says "Huh?" for hours on end. Or, like some sort of old computer, you can completely confuse by repeating its questions.

I have noticed that every single half-giant is played in the same fashion as well, and personally, think it detracts from the gaming enviroment of Armageddon moreso than enriching it. I'm sorry. I don't like half-giants. I don't think they're cute, laughable, or even remotely interesting. You might say "Well..You've never seen a well-played half-giant." You're right. I haven't. I'm going to take a stand and say they 100% suck.

then again, thats just my opinion.

[Dakkon Black]

I've seen a few H-G's Ic in the last little while. I suppose most of them are happy and not concerned with the usual frustration and racial edge that most of Zalanthas has.

At the same time, I don't think cute and stupid is the way to play a Giant, and agree that I'd like to see more giants who mostly focus on curiosity as their drive, over mindless Huh's.

There have been giants who have acted quite stately, and nobly, not to mention speaking very well and clean, without slang terms and in a polite manner. Why? Because they hung out all the time with nobles, etc.

Playing a HG for me was a bit of a challenge, but playing them like a 5 year old child really isn't right. For one, talk to the next 5 year old kid you meet, they might not be EDUCATED, but they are SMART and SHARP mentally. Playing your giant as a child is instantly wrong for this reason.

Giants are much different, and there are some other good posts on this GDB about giant rp and how to pull it off, or try to. I had a blast playing a HG, and allthough there were concepts that he either A, didn't get, or B, didn't care about getting, he could very much decide over good decisions and bad ones.

A good example I use is one of dogs. The mental capaticy for speach of ANY kind is a huge leap over dogs, and yet the average 5 year old dog can understand a HUGE amount of our language if we talk to it. I think of most HG's as large bulldog's who are smart enough to reply and tell others what they are thinking and feeling, and are the happiest when they are fitting in with others around them.

[spawnloser]

By definition, 'retarded' means 'slowness or limitation in intellectual understanding and awareness,' which seems to be pretty accurate when talking about a race of people that have the smartest of them on par with the dumbest of humans.

Considering the documentation describes them, as Reiloth pointed out, as, '[p]ossessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually),' wouldn't it make sense for your average HG to be generally friendly?

Personally, I will agree that HG's tend towards certain attitudes, and rarely go out of their way to adapt in certain ways (part of this being that they can't often afford to just switch up their clothing like others, what with the ridiculous tailoring fees they would need to get the clothing for their adapting).  Still, I think there have been a few very well-played HGs.  Just like any race or guild, there are some cookie-cutter characters and some exceptional characters.  I say play on.

[Angela Christine]

The difficulty you run into playing a half-giant is that if you don't play as a drooling moron people can accuse you of ignoring the racial docs and playing "too smart."  If you do play as a total idiot you can be accused of playing for "comic relief" and ignoring the setting.  If you aren't a stereotypical HG someone somewhere thinks you are doing it wrong.  If you are stereotypical, you are still doing it wrong.   :x

Then there is the problem of the background.  Is a half-giant smart enough to raise her own babies?  Of course she is, even hamsters can raise their own babies (and hardly ever eat them) and there are few mammals more stupid than a hamster.  But some players really and truly believe that a half-giant couldn't raise a kid, so all HG kids should be born to HGs that were in clans, and the humans or other smarties in the clan helped the HG mother take care of her babies.  But if a half-giant was raised in a large organization, wouldn't they usually stay with that clan?  So why are you wandering around with a thousand 'sid in your pockets and no friends?  Under this theory any independent HG is automatically poor roleplay, because HGs are too helpless and dependant to be clanless.  (Unfortunately, putting in your background that you were raised within a clan would require a special application, so that is not an attractive option).


Joining a clan is not hard, but it is hard to reconcile the life oath required by many clans with the HG tendency to wander off with whomever looks most interesting at the moment.  Elves are supposed to hate the HG lack of loyalty, but most PC HGs are pretty darn loyal.


HGs are hard to play.  They are also few and far between, so most people haven't seen tons of PC HGs that they can use as role models when they want to try playing one themselves.  It is a difficult role to master.

[Clearsighted]

Two things strike me as wrong about the docs that are probably contributing to this problem.

1) All half-giants must be overwhelmingly kind and curious.

That is as rediculous as saying all humans must be kind and curious, and all dwarves must be drunks and braggards, or all elves must be devious. These are racial stereotypes. Like saying blacks are good runners, or swedish women are hot. There are plenty of hot blacks that a swedish woman could outrun. Or something like that.

So I find that taking two racial stereotypes and forming them into a holy grail might be contributing to the problem.

And frankly, if an entire race is so stupid that they must maintain this universal set of very specific emotions regardless of upbringing, so much as to make them mostly indistinguishable from each other, then really, we might as well allow PC kanks. Otherwise it's just too stupidly one-dimensional and boring.

2) How did half-giants, whom are the ultimate cultural parasite, EVER manage to acquire kindness and curiousity as the dominant characteristics of their race, when Zalanthas is an environment that sorely punishes both in the extreme?

And frankly, I always thought the half-giant guards were scary as hell. They looked mean, and acted mean, even if they didn't say anything. If the half-giants NPCs were to act even remotely like the majority of half giant PCs, noone would ever get killed for bringing spice through a gate.

Edit: And I wish H-Gs were few and far between. But in the last 3 years, it seems alot of people gained the karma for one, cause I've seen as many half giants as elves or dwarves, and more than half-elves.

[spawnloser]

Heh, not many punish HG's.  Something with very little common sense and strength nearing Hulk-like levels?  I wouldn't want to upset it.

[ThirdEye]

I remember seeing one very well played HG...I think so anyway...


Raaaaarrgggh! I can't smash anyfing!!!

[Barzalene]

I've recently interacted with two half giants. They've each felt very distinct to me. My experience has been largely positive.

I think part of the perceieved problem might not be with the half giants themselves but the way others choose to rp their interactions with them.

[LoD]

So it seems every half giant I've ever encountered is played in the exact same  'hideously strong retard puppy' idiom. There does not seem to me, to be as much challenge in playing one, as there is in any of the non-karma races.

If every giant you've encountered seems to be playing the same character, then perhaps that's a sign that the role perhaps is more challenging than other races.

You're playing what is mostly a foreign concept; someone who has no distinct culture, a lack of intelligence, and a body capable of crushing rock.  The other class choices are much closer to what you and I experience everyday with regard to proportion (i.e. height, weight, size) and interaction (i.e. conversation, decision making).  We can better relate to the physical, emotional, and mental state of the elf, dwarf, half-elf, human, and mul.

And so it's a natural struggle.  How do I personify this dangerous creature who is written as notoriously curious, kind, unintelligent and slow moving?  What's more is that one of the most common thing traipsing behind a templar are going to be half-giant guards.  They are tools of strength, intimidation, raw power, and (somewhat) controllable natures.  The fact that they're given enough trust by the city to be handed a two-handed battle axe, set of armor, militia cloak, and sent on their way to patrol the streets indicates that they are, at the least, capable of following basic orders and patterns for short periods of time.

Angelina hits it right when stating half-giants are given a precarious ledge to walk when deciding how to portray their character.  Too dumb and they're unrealistic, too smart and characters complain that they're ignoring the documentation.  So where is the common ground?  How do you play a half-giant in a way to allow now only diversity between characters, but also a way for them to be faithful to the documentation?

Me Tarzan.  You Templar.

One common misconception is that half-giants must talk like idiots.  Even the most basic of people can form general sentences, and for an entire race gifted with the ability to imitate those around them to be reduced to this style of language is unfortunate.  One should consider their environment: How does everyone else talk?  How does everyone else move?  Half-giants would very likely (and quickly) adapt to their surroundings by watching others.  They would talk as others talk, even borrowing sentences word for word to use again in the future, often out of context.

Adapting to the Environment

If you took three half-giants from three different backgrounds (i.e. wilderness, Tuluk, and the 'rinth) you would likely find three very different personalities, methods of speech, patterns of movement, and ideas of right/wrong.  Each of these three characters would have absorbed aspects of their environment through immitation, and adopted them into their temporary culture.

I see many half-giants "doing their own thing" which probably works counter to how they'd act.  It'd be much more interesting for half-giants to "attach" themselves to people, seek interaction, and spend a lot of their time watching and observing others.  I see half-giants having a fairly difficult time "knowing what to do" with their time, so the curious streak is not necessarily a trait bourne of innocence, but of necessity.  They are curious because above and beyond their simple needs for water, food, and shelter, they aren't really sure what to do most of the time.

Following Others

I have problems with the half-giant characters whom uptake tasks such as heavy crafting, merchanting, making complex independant decisions, negotiating, or exhibiting any modicum of problem solving skills outside of simple survival skills.  Half-giants could probably reproduce a few crafts that they were shown, and then repeat the gesture over and over and over, however, I don't think that they would come up with "new" crafts on their own.  Nor do I believe that they would fall into a routine without some strong reinforcement.

For example, let's say that you take a half-giant guard who is normally surrounded by non-giant guards, and place him alone to guard an outpost somewhere in the desert.  He has no officers telling him where to stand, what to say, what to do, how to act, when to eat, when to sleep, where not to go, etc...  I'd give that half-giant a few days before he started to get bored and wonder what else he should be doing.  He might wander away from the outpost because he saw something moving in the desert and lost his focus on his objective.

It's not because he's a moron.  It's not because he has a four sentence vocabulary.  It's because his nature is very much dependant upon and influenced by the actions, words, and decisions of others.  That is also why half-giants are karma classes.  They aren't easy to play.  They might not even be that fun to play for some people, just as you don't see a lot of mul slaves because the role is limited.

Half-giants can be incredibly entertaining, interesting, and humorous.  However, they can also be dangerous, cumbersome, and infuriating at the same time.  It's really one of the most challenging roles in the game, not only to fully grasp the half-giant mentality, but to embrace and sustain it.

-LoD

[Clearsighted]

I am certain a profound roleplayer with a deep interest in a scene can elicit mostly unique reactions from any PC. But I'm not sure the burden of how forgettable and stereotypical a giant is should depend on those around them. In which case, Rping with them becomes charity.

It just seemed strange to me that a karma 3 race seemed to require the least amount of creativity. It is pretty easy to do the stereotypical HG comic relief routine on autopilot. And even the docs seem to demand it. I.E, I'm pretty sure anyone who could earn karma 1, could play them just as stereotypically well. Just perhaps with a bit less thinks, feels or solo RP. It's not really hard to act like a big clumsy, easily lead oaf all day who will occassionally go hulk smash. It is significantly harder to go beyond that, but most...don't.

It's good that it's a karmic race, since it cuts down on silliness. I just find it interesting that the PCs they played to get the 3 karma required to app a HG, were probably all more satisfying and more interesting to themselves and those around them. And some HGs really RP their stereotypes well. It's just that...they're all the same stereotypes.

That said, I have no doubt it is a challenging role. But it seems strange that all these people who attain the karma required, seem to use their HG phase as a vacation. I'm positive there are exceptions...I can only speak from personal experience. But noone could make the same generalizations about any other race...and doesn't that suggest something?

Edit: Great post, lod. It'd just be nice to see a Half-giant that wasn't yet another good natured clumsy dumbass, and more like the NPCs. I mean, have they only interacted with good natured clumsy dumbasses?

I'd like to see a HG trooper that guarded a templar all day acted. Probably a horrifically scary and affecting PC to be in the presence of. And like I said earlier...If the PC HGs staffed the gates, noone would ever die from bringing spice inside.

[Marauder Moe]

Clearsighted, I'm not sure why you're so quick to equate Zalanthan stereotypes with real-world ones.  A black person and a Swedish person are both human.  Dwarves are not human, and while they aren't all drunks and braggarts, they ALL have a singular focus in life that dominates their thoughts.  Not all elves are neccesarily smart enough to be devious but ALL elves have an urge to steal from those not of their clan.  Many of these stereotypes are biologically driven.  Dwarven, elven, half-elven, and half-giant brains are simply different from humans and it makes them act differently from humans.

Secondly, I think you need to read the half-giant documents more: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html

The "kindness and curiousity" section was only the last paragraph, hardly overwhelming aspects of the half-giant psyche.


Otherwise, however, I agree that I've seen some poorly-played half-giants that overuse the Tarzanese and the blank stare.  I've seen just as many good ones, though, with some actual personality.  The problem is that most Zalanthan characters probably consider half-giants to be near-mindless animals, sort of like muls.  They wouldn't see the point in really interacting with one and learning about him/her as an individual.  I'm not saying that needs to change, I'm just saying that it's a cultural aspect that would magnify this perceived problem of half-giant personality.

[Clearsighted]

Marauder Moe,

I just find it difficult to believe that humans have more distinguishing stereotypes in different regions or nations, let alone races (such as black, caucasian, african)

But a *really* different race, such as elves or dwarves or even high-giants are suddenly pigeon-holed into a single subset of behavior described in one paragraph.

It'd be like aliens seeing movies of earth from the 1950s and assuming all Americans (or even all men) were like John Wayne...even though he embodied virtues that many red blooded American males wanted to emulate. Or that all Americans are like New Englanders.

In fact, I made an earlier post in this thread dealing with the HG docs. Where on earth did half-giants, the ultimate cultural parasite, pick up on kindness in Zalanthas as a deeply embedded, seemingly genetic trait?

[Marauder Moe]

Did you read the link in my post?

[LoD]

In fact, I made an earlier post in this thread dealing with the HG docs. Where on earth did half-giants, the ultimate cultural parasite, pick up on kindness in Zalanthas as a deeply embedded, seemingly genetic trait?

It may very well be because half-giants wouldn't be inherently driven by many of the complex emotions that beget violence; greed, corruption, lust, envy, and jealousy.  Their curious natures and seemingly benign indifference to personal gain (for lack of knowing what they should want) is probably perceived as kindness.

Half-giants would be very interested in what someone was doing.  They'd probably be fascinated by some of the most mundane or normal things simply because they'd have no idea of how to do it themselves.  And in their desire to learn, to immiate, to observe, they might be considered kind creatures because their motivations are different than almost every other creature found in-game.  They aren't driven by the need to conquer lands, deffeat political foes, hone their blade, dominate a financial market, exact revenge against an enemy tribe, or any of the things which generally cause friction.

Their interactions with people would most often be one of fascinated discovery, and so it's easy to see why they might be considered kind.  They'd probably seem helpful, attentive, non-threatening, and unassuming in their efforts to observe and immitate someone.  So I can see where such a trait might grow to be called kindness.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

As an aside, I always thought it was hilarious to see a templar with two half-giant guards. The NPCs should have a random chance of unhitching themselves, subduing random people, and ceasing their guard on the templar.

[Clearsighted]

Did you read the link in my post?

Yes. I. Did.

It was the basic idiom of how the race is structured in the doc that I was taking issue with in the first place. I'm not sure how kindness (no matter how it is perceived or explained) is so ingrained, when they supposedly pick up emotions and attitudes very easily. What separates the appearance of kindness as to make it the quintiessential Giant virtue? Supposedly it is to get rewards. Fine. I think it is just one more cog in the comic relief archetype.

But it's fine that it is. That's the race. It was an offhanded musing to begin with. I would have thought that 'low intelligence' creatures would be more inclined towards abject loyalty to those who could master them, violent gratification, routine and cruelty.

It's just one sort've gets tired of yet another 'good natured oaf'. Though I'm well aware, some do transcend this. Or some do it very well. It just all starts to run together eventually.

[Marauder Moe]

Did you read the link in my post?

Yes. I. Did.

I remain skeptical.

It was the basic idiom of how the race is structured in the doc that I was taking issue with in the first place. I'm not sure how kindness (no matter how it is perceived or explained) is so ingrained, when they supposedly pick up emotions and attitudes very easily.

This is incorrect.  Half-giants don't pick up emotions and attitudes easily, if at all.  They pick up behaviors.

What separates the appearance of kindness as to make it the quintiessential Giant virtue? Supposedly it is to get rewards. Fine. I think it is just one more cog in the comic relief archetype.

The reason I doubt you actually read the Half-giant section of the Racial Roleplay docs is that if you did, you'd know that it clarifies kindness to be  simply a lack of malice combined with responsiveness to immediate rewards and an imitative nature.  Half-giants are considered good-natured because they aren't smart enough to be ill-natured.  They don't know how to take advantage of someone, they're usually terrible at lying, probably utterly incapable of (purposeful) social manipulation, and the pain of others isn't usually gratifying on a basic emotional level.

[Twilight]

The docs are the docs.  They provide the framework we play within, obviously.  The nature of half-giants is not going to change because someone disagrees with it.

In which case, Rping with them becomes charity.

Having played a few half giants long ago, I can say this was at one point a problem.  Can't say if it still is, I haven't interacted with HG's much lately.  But people would ignore half-giants.  Even when spoken to directly.

I found this to show a clear lack of understanding.  I can remember one instance of someone completely ignoring my half-giant, even after getting asked several direct questions.  Pointedly ignoring my half-giant, even as he got increasingly and obviously upset.

Which brings me to the safety net most people rely on when interacting with half-giants.  The crim code.  I think a lot of people don't regard half-giants (or muls for that matter), with the proper amount of fear they really should, and the respect for just what they can do to you.

Its funny how his attitude changed once he was subdued.  Could it have been because of the bad position codedly he was now in?  Could it be because the crim code was suddenly not protecting him anymore?  My perception of the half-giant kindness is that it is partly there to protect other players, stranglely enough.  Mad half-giants are scary.

[Clearsighted]

Did you read the link in my post?

Yes. I. Did.

I remain skeptical.

It was the basic idiom of how the race is structured in the doc that I was taking issue with in the first place. I'm not sure how kindness (no matter how it is perceived or explained) is so ingrained, when they supposedly pick up emotions and attitudes very easily.

This is incorrect.  Half-giants don't pick up emotions and attitudes easily, if at all.  They pick up behaviors.

What separates the appearance of kindness as to make it the quintiessential Giant virtue? Supposedly it is to get rewards. Fine. I think it is just one more cog in the comic relief archetype.

The reason I doubt you actually read the Half-giant section of the Racial Roleplay docs is that if you did, you'd know that it clarifies kindness to be  simply a lack of malice combined with responsiveness to immediate rewards and an imitative nature.  Half-giants are considered good-natured because they aren't smart enough to be ill-natured.  They don't know how to take advantage of someone, they're usually terrible at lying, probably utterly incapable of (purposeful) social manipulation, and the pain of others isn't usually gratifying on a basic emotional level.

Have *you* even read my posts in their entirety? That might be a good start before calling me a liar.

If you're so intent on assuming the worst fantasy about my motives and arguments to launch into your own rebuttal, than by all means, have at it. But I would prefer it if you actually respond to what I wrote.

I realize what's in the docs. I was simply disagreeing with the docs in an offhanded manner. It's following the docs that tends to encourage the stereotypical behavior...And since when does emotion or attitude not significantly impact behavior?

I don't like the way docs portray the half-giants, and I don't care much about the reasoning behind it since the end result is the same. I've repeated this three times now. Do you understand? If I hadn't read the docs, I couldn't be disagreeing with them. I suppose I wouldn't be as bothered if more people used them as the foundation of their character and not the entirety of it.

The reason I doubt you've read my posts is because I specifically referred to what you just went on about.

It was a personal opinion on the docs. Not claiming it was from the docs. Or should replace the docs. I simply think half-giants would have more realistically evolved as more brutish, cruel, routine-oriented and loyal. Not as flippant, happy-go-lucky good natured oafs whom are like 12 feet tall turn of the century Iowan farmboys with a learning disability.

[LoD]

I don't like the way docs portray the half-giants...

That's understandable, and certainly this is an appropriate forum for discussion.

...and I don't care much about the reasoning behind it since the end result is the same.

However, this clearly indicates that you are not here to have a discussion, but to make a statement.  If you are not willing to even consider a different point of view, then the only applicable response to your post is, "Noted."

And to address a previous point, half-giants could very well assume behaviors without their corresponding attitudes or emotions because of their lack of comprehension.  For example:

Code Select Expand

The slender, green-eyed elf bumps into the stooped, beady-eyed man, lifting one hand in apology before pressing through the crowd.

The stooped, beady-eyed man narrows his gaze, nostrils flaring in a short snort of disgust toward a slender, green-eyed elf.

Bitter distaste in his tone, the stooped, beady-eyed man says, in sirhish:
  "Damned slant...."

The branded, crimson skinned half-giant glances from the stooped, beady-eyed man to a slender, green-eyed elf, narrowing his eyes into thin slits and blowing air through his nose.

Two days later, our giant runs into someone else:

Code Select Expand

The burly, barrel chested man nudges a few patrons as he pushes off the bar and moves to the street.

Narrowing his eyes, the branded, crimson skinned half-giant says, in sirihish:
   "Damned slant..."

He doesn't know what slant means, nor that it was said out of distaste for one of the elven community because the "friend" likely thought they were trying to steal from them.  None of that attitude or emotion was applicable in this situation, the giant merely connected the bumping action and the gesture/phrasing to be relevant.

He may very well to go on to repeat that phrase and gesture in situations that have no connection whatsoever with the first encounter.  They aren't assuming the attitudes or emotions behind the behavior, only the superficial actions and speech.  They might connect a certain phrase with a certain race, but my guess is that unless they've been personally hurt by an experience (i.e. stolen from by an elf) they wouldn't understand why they were saying it.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Have *you* even read my posts in their entirety? That might be a good start before calling me a liar.

I didn't call you a liar.  I had wondered, though, if perhaps you simply read one part of the half-giant docs and then assumed that there were no other parts to it.  That was the source of my doubt.

If you're so intent on assuming the worst fantasy about my motives and arguments to launch into your own rebuttal, than by all means, have at it. But I would prefer it if you actually respond to what I wrote.

I realize what's in the docs. I was simply disagreeing with the docs in an offhanded manner. It's following the docs that tends to encourage the stereotypical behavior...And since when does emotion or attitude not significantly impact behavior?

One, there's nothing wrong with roleplaying stereotypical behavior in Armageddon.  The Earth assumption is that when something is called a stereotype, it's usually a falsehood based on prejudice.  Zalanthas isn't Earth, though.  Stereotypes in the docs are based on fact, not prejudice.    The racial stereotypes are in for a reason: Arm's non-human races are NOT supposed to be played like humans.

Two, of course emotion and attitude impact behavior.  However, half-giants can't see emotion or attitude.  All they see is behavior, and they all try to immitate what they see.  They don't know why people do what they do, nor do they care.  They just have a desire to do the same things people they know do.

I don't like the way docs portray the half-giants, and I don't care much about the reasoning behind it since the end result is the same. I've repeated this three times now. Do you understand? If I hadn't read the docs, I couldn't be disagreeing with them.

Nonsense.  I've seen plenty of people disagree with things they know nothing about.

I suppose I wouldn't be as bothered if more people used them as the foundation of their character and not the entirety of it.

How many half-giant characters have you played with, anyway?  Just the one who's player you got into an argument with?

The reason I doubt you've read my posts is because I specifically referred to what you just went on about.

Except you seem to be arguing that it's ridiculous that kindness and curiousity are the dominant traits of half-giants.  The doc don't say that, though.  Kindness and curiosity are a small section at the very bottom of the Half-giant Soclial Plight document.  The dominant traits are stupidity and immitation.

It was a personal opinion on the docs. Not claiming it was from the docs. Or should replace the docs. I simply think half-giants would have more realistically evolved as more brutish, cruel, routine-oriented and loyal. Not as flippant, happy-go-lucky good natured oafs whom are like 12 feet tall turn of the century Iowan farmboys with a learning disability.

Half-giants didn't evolve.  They were created.  Obviously they weren't created perfectly, but the current species is probably the best that their creators ever managed to breed.  If you dislike part of the Armageddon game setting, that's fine.  I dislike some parts of it too.  That point isn't even close to what this thread started as, though.

[Beux]

I just wanted to say...I've met a handful of HG's in my 6 months at Arm. But I did meet one very special HG. He was still very much within the limits of HG rp. He was strong, and he was rather stupid, but he was, well, down right amazing.

Every second I spent Rp'ing with him was captivating, it wasn't just that he was a great Rp'er, but also that this particular HG had a great deal of depth. HG's -can- be awesome characters, I guess they just work better for some players eh.

[Reiloth]

LoD...You're brilliant, (And I don't mean that sarcastically at ALL) if I had the opportunity, I would make clones of you so that about ten of you could play HG's on Arm, because seriously, you have it just right.

you're on the level, because I agree with every point of view you have on Half-Giants, I won't even go into it, I just wish that the rest of the populace could be on that level as well.

Reading over the Roleplay suggestion link, blah blah, I read the whole thing and the first thing that popped into my mind was...Every half giant I meet plays the opposite of this archetype, and its that OPPOSITE ARCHETYPE THAT PISSES ME OFF.

so please. to reiterate.

If you're playing a half-giant.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/halfgiantsocial.html

thank you in advance.

[Rhyden]

I give mad props to people who play HGs. I have before. It's -hard-.

And I totally agree with AC. If your HG is too smart, people will be like, OMFG!! TWINK! SMART HG!!! WTF?!!

And if your HG is too dumb, people will be like,
OMFG!! TWINK! STUPID HG!!! STEREOTYPE!! WTF?!!

There's no winning, it seems, for the big fellas. And I think they tend to appear the same because the racial role-play docs set up for them. They're very specific of how a HG thinks and acts and I just think it's difficult to play a realistic HG without straying far from those docs and the stereotype HG.

Also, if you think somebody isn't playing a HG right (which I had before I did play one), try playing one yourself. You'll find it isn't as easy as it looks.

[amish overlord]

Agreed HG are very very hard. Only done one and was a short lived one. Was a young one too who cried at times. ITs difficult to play someone who entire race isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and not go me smash ju!  Can easily play a real dumb anything else but finding the balance for an HG is very hard. They are sorta a parrot, since docs indicate they seem to learn customs and mannerisms aroudn them easily. Heck i'd say they should be able to learn accents quicker than most so they could imintate those they are around. They are very malleable to those around them but so malleable they can easily be turned by a new person.
Also difficult because of position in society, what do people higher HG's for? Mainly to smash people on head. And for most part thats what I see no one hires a half-giant bard or florist(think hightower in police academy)

Amish Overlord  

[amish overlord]

I think i thought of the perfect example from rl what a hg would be.  Forrest gump! Not tarzan or mongo the barbarian, anyone else think so. Forrest was sometimes nieve and got himself into bad situations.

the big halfgiant says in sirihish
"My momma says stupid is as stupid does."

Amish Overlord  

[jhunter]

Half-giants are one of the hardest things in Arm to play IMO. It is very difficult to find a balance between stereotypical and creative for the race without having someone bitch. I disagree with the statement someone else made earlier about them not taking any creativity to play. On the contrary, I think they take more creativity than most other roles in the game. Maybe one day, I will get one right...but I doubt it.

[rufus]

Momma said life is like a box a' chock-lates.

[Viagra_Kank]

Yeah, I've only played one half-giant, and it was really hard to do.  

My choices were to sit there quietly, or open my mouth and something stupid would come out.  My character was keenly aware of this.

[Hymwen]

Heck i'd say they should be able to learn accents quicker than most so they could imintate those they are around. They are very malleable to those around them but so malleable they can easily be turned by a new person.

I think that's a really good idea, actually. It is currently next to impossible for a half-giant to learn a new accent because of their horrible wisdom scores, and that doesn't seem to reflect realism.

[Maybe42or54]

I want to play a half giant, but I can't die. Bleh.

Anyways.

The way I've seen Half Giants is that they start out as very sterotypical, like the player behind the pc is nice and cute, but as they grow as a pc the pc becomes more and more real and less like why this thread was created. I was in the arm once with a half giant and I didn 't think it was very well rp'ed, but then I died and I thought I was saved, but then a week later (2 pc deaths) I gotm the chance to reinteract with that same freak hg and it had a major effect on me, because I had low expectations, but they really blew me away. It was fun.

[Synthesis]

Having recently played a half-giant PC, I'll say that my biggest problem was keeping myself entertained, while keeping my PC's actions within reasonable bounds.

One of the root causes of this problem was the fact that other PCs would generally ignore my half-giant, or give him a very wide berth, despite the fact that he obviously was wandering around aimlessly.  In the 6 months I played him, only three or four PCs took the time to try to get him working for them.

After a while, this got extremely boring.  Fortunately, IC events gave me a somewhat plausible reason to make a drastic lifestyle change, which let me have a little initiative.  I have to admit, though, it was extremely difficult trying to determine what was "too smart" for a half-giant to figure out, and sticking with it.  On the other hand, sometimes you just have to stretch "realism" a little and settle on a comfortable point in the grey area, just to get things done.  For example, I had found a fairly tricky route to a certain place, that almost nobody knew about...a half-giant probably wouldn't be intelligent enough to remember all the directions, every single time he went back (realism), but roleplaying being hopelessly lost in an area with few and distant quit-safe points, every time I was there was just too much to ask (playability).  So I went from point A to point B, shrugged, and rolled with it.  Somehow, the universe did not implode.

For tips on how to play a half-giant, I posted something, somewhere, in another half-giant thread.  Maybe someone can dig it up.  Maybe I'll do it.

Here's the link: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=214354&highlight=halfgiant#214354

[Angela Christine]

It might be helpful if you are about to play a HG to do a search on them here on the GDB, there has been a fair bit of discussion about them in the past.  It isn't official like the docs, but it can give you an idea of what other players have thought about HGs, what they like or disliked (mostly disliked) about them over time.

I was looking for something else when I found this: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4238 I'd forgotten all about that thread but I think it's nifty.  There are probably lots of other nifty HG threads still in the database.

[Pantoufle]

Like AC already said, I think the biggest obstacle for half-giants is the catch-22 scneario of "too smart / too dumb" accusations by other players.  They are quite possibly one of the most difficult races to play and it's because of this fact that I think most of the anti-HG posters in this thread need to tone down their arguments a little.  I can't think of the last half-giant I encountered who was played as so inexorably stupid that I felt he went past the racial concept of "dumb".  Similarly, I can't think of the last half-giant I encountered who was played as being far too bright for his race.  I've encounted a few of both, but it's been, literally, years, and I think the stereotype of "people are playing half-giants too smart/dumb" is way over exaggerated.

To add to the difficulty I think are the contradictions in the documentation and over analysis of players.  So what if the help file says they are all innately kind and loving?  The help files also say fire elementalists inherantly hate shadow elementalists, but that decade+ old snippet of documentation certainly doesn't mean you have to play your fire elementalist as a shadow-hating maniac.  Relax.  Don't read into what ancient help files say so much.  Take what you want out of the small details, it's the more obvious ones which violating would actually be considered OOC: like elves riding kanks or dwarves without any focus.

That said, I'd like to see some added development to the half-giant race, particularly pertaining to their lack of intellect.

Is a half-giant smart enough to raise her own babies? Of course she is, even hamsters can raise their own babies (and hardly ever eat them) and there are few mammals more stupid than a hamster. But some players really and truly believe that a half-giant couldn't raise a kid, so all HG kids should be born to HGs that were in clans, and the humans or other smarties in the clan helped the HG mother take care of her babies.

Hamsters raise their own babies successfully because they have instinct.  A spider is virtually brainless compared to humans yet they instinctively know how to weave their own webs without instruction.  You cannot compare half-giants to hamsters just as you cannot compare apples to oranges.

This is just my own opinion, but I equate half-giant "stupidity" as remotely comparable to clinically retarded people.  While some may be able to successfully raise children, without doing a great deal of research on the disease, I'd venture a guess that most actually cannot (even if a hamster can).  They may be able to do things hamsters cannot, like speak languages and use tools, but their mental faculties might not be sufficient for more complicated tasks, such as rearing their own children.  I don't think the only reason half-giants lack communities of their own is simply because they don't want to, I don't think they're CAPABLE of it.  Opinions, here, obviously will vary.  In an earlier post LoD said it might be unrealistic for a half-giant to choose merchanting or in-depth crafting roles for a half-giant.  According to this logic, which I agree with, if a half-giant cannot become an adept craftsman, how is (s)he going to be able to successfully raise children on his own without any intervention of the other humanoids races?  The question is, what mental faculties are beyond the range of a half-giant's?  Unforuntately, the more in-depth you answer this, the more contradictions and restrictions you may be imposing upon the race.

[Clearsighted]

After spending a few days to quietly rethink my original position, I've come to the following conclusion, after considering the various responses.

It is not really about being too bright or too dumb.

Inasmuch as the acceptable 'way' of roleplaying a giant is so narrow.

Most of the HGs I've seen have been fine RPers. Had a fine knowledge of the game. Yet they all played in that same narrowly acceptable band.

And since it is so narrow, it is fairly easy to emulate. You are never really faced with tough character development. And there is perversly, for such a supposedly changeable race, a huge peer pressure to not grow.  It would seem to me, that if a character was dedicated enough to acquire 3 karma in the first place, they would not be the kind of person who could be satisfied with such a narrow PC. Since while the strength is nice...It must lose its novelty after a month.

Granted, if a PC tries to go above that, then they get branded as being 'too smart'. And that was why I originally took issue with the docs. Since I felt like, unlike the other racial docs, the half giants were given exceptionally narrower margins.

If you have five HG players, and they're all great RPers, but they're all RPing in the same narrowly defined band of what their peers consider acceptable HG RP, they're going to encounter the same issues spoken of by HG players in this thread. That they're ignored/forgettable. That it feels like charity to RP with them because they're so predictable. That they had difficulty taking personal initiative or finding purpose. That they eventually found it boring.

That said, I feel the militia or the Byn is probably a good place for the giants. And the best HG rpers I've ever seen (or the ones that got the most interaction and the most satisfaction out of their PCs) were ones in an heavily regimented lifestyle. Especially the Byn which does a good job of binding people together (if they survive).

So I would suspect that HGs are easy to imitate or emulate (especially if all you want is the strength) but are very difficult to take any personal, long term satisfaction from in an character development sense.

[spawnloser]

To add to the difficulty I think are the contradictions in the documentation and over analysis of players.  So what if the help file says they are all innately kind and loving?  The help files also say fire elementalists inherantly hate shadow elementalists, but that decade+ old snippet of documentation certainly doesn't mean you have to play your fire elementalist as a shadow-hating maniac.  Relax.  Don't read into what ancient help files say so much.  Take what you want out of the small details, it's the more obvious ones which violating would actually be considered OOC: like elves riding kanks or dwarves without any focus.

I have a problem with this paragraph, Pantoufle.  If the documentation ISN'T something that should be read and followed, the documentation should be changed so that it IS something that should be read and followed.  The documentation is there for a reason.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I once said that I would never play a half-giant.

Then I did, and I realized that one could actually achieve an enjoyable character without defying the documentation. A half-giant can speak normally, if not nessessarily in great depth. A half-giant can think clearly, without thinking in scholarly terms. A half-giant can make things interesting for everyone because their lack of instant understanding and their innate curiosity begs for 'talking to strangers'.

A half-giant does not have to be an utter idiot to fit the role. He has to be slow in understanding, but not nessessarily so slow that he never gets it right. He is clumsy, but not so clumsy that he can't function in the real world. He can even lead, particullarly if he has been raised in an enviroment that relates to the sort of group he is leading. He can do all of this, and still not defy documentation. He'll probably make numerous changes in goals, some of them maybe even not even thought out, just because his curiosity piques him.

Ask your ten year old what he would do in this situation or that. You'll discover that the reasoning capabilities of a ten year old are not quite as undeveloped as you might think they are.

There's a reason that 'from the mouths of babes' has endured as a saying for so long.

[Clearsighted]

To add to the difficulty I think are the contradictions in the documentation and over analysis of players.  So what if the help file says they are all innately kind and loving?  The help files also say fire elementalists inherantly hate shadow elementalists, but that decade+ old snippet of documentation certainly doesn't mean you have to play your fire elementalist as a shadow-hating maniac.  Relax.  Don't read into what ancient help files say so much.  Take what you want out of the small details, it's the more obvious ones which violating would actually be considered OOC: like elves riding kanks or dwarves without any focus.

I have a problem with this paragraph, Pantoufle.  If the documentation ISN'T something that should be read and followed, the documentation should be changed so that it IS something that should be read and followed.  The documentation is there for a reason.

The document should serve as the foundation of any character. But I think what displays true understanding of it, is not to rely on it 100%, but to use it to build a realistic and believable character from.

[spawnloser]

The document should serve as the foundation of any character. But I think what displays true understanding of it, is not to rely on it 100%, but to use it to build a realistic and believable character from.

Okay, Krathi don't like being in the dark...and there is a reason for this.  Drovians don't like being in the light...and there is a reason for this.  Play one of either and figure out why.  That documentation cited by Pantoufle has little to do, in my eyes, with showing why the half-giant documentation should not be followed.  Of course, you build up...but you should never exclude, or we will end up with the proverbial kank-riding elf, because that is only a detail, mind you.

[Bebop]

I don't like half giants.  They are overly powerful and not enough people RP them right.  The race should be closed or as high as a mul karma.  I have HG karma and I never intend to use it just because I don't feel like trying to find the balance between someone who is smart enough to survive independantly but apparently still not that smart.  Also HGs lack any kind of cultural referance (even more so than dwarves) And being dumb, yet somehow self sufficent leaves little room for goals or much of a background.

[Angela Christine]

Half-giants are allowed to play Merchants, Elementalists, Rangers, Pickpockets, Burglars, and Assassins, not only Warriors.  On the other hand I've never met a half-giant Sorcerer, and I don't think they are allowed to be Sorcerers (the same way that city elf's can't be Rangers and d-elfs can't be Pickpockets).   They have penalties to some skills (it's hard for a 12 foot tall guy to hide or blend in to the crowd).  They generally won't be as good at many classes as other races, because their low, low wisdom means it takes an ungodly length of time to branch or master any skill (including combat skills).

That hard-coded bit of reality tells me that half-giants are smart enough to do most of the activities that those classes are known for . . . eventually.  They can be Rangers, despite the fact that tracking is tricky, extracting the good bits from a corpse is apparently highly skilled, and bows and crossbows can be difficult to master.  Lock picking is a very complex skill requiring pretty good coordination and manual dexterity, but half-giant Burglars are smart enough to do it right out of char gen.  Pick locks isn't a skill you can really learn well from "monkey see, monkey do" because when you watch someone else pick a lock you can't see what the picks are doing inside the lock.  Half-giant Merchants are smart enough to figure out what things are really worth, haggle for a better price, and eventually master a variety of crafts, perhaps eventually understanding enough about construction and engineering to build a functional wagon.  
If half-giants weren't smart enough to do all those things it would be easy enough to restrict them solely to being Warriors and Elementalists, and let them use sub-guilds to represent shallow understanding of crafting, sneakiness or other skills.  





Anyway, playing a non-warrior may help break out of the stereotype.  There is less temptation to go "Hulk smash!" when you know that your PC isn't actually very good at smashing things.   :wink:

[Rhyden]

I don't like half giants.  They are overly powerful and not enough people RP them right.  

Yeah, they're powerful. Overly powerful? No such thing in Armageddon. Some things have more power than other things. It's not fair. Yep.

The race should be closed or as high as a mul karma.

Agreed, somewhere around 4-5 karma though.

Also HGs lack any kind of cultural referance (even more so than dwarves) And being dumb, yet somehow self sufficent leaves little room for goals or much of a background.

Half-giants still have goals, they may be more simple and spontaneous though. Like, "I want some food". Or, "I want a set of spiky armor". And as for backgrounds, I completely disagree. Half-giants are still living a story. All half-giants are same in some ways, but different in more ways. Half-giants' initial backgrounds can be as creative or as dull as anyone else's. And future backgrounds (biography entries) can be just as creative and plentiful. You may have a half-giant who started out in the rinth, lives like a rinthi, joins the Byn, becomes an ale-drinking, dirty-talking mercenary, leaves and joins Kadius as a fashionable hunter then finally become a noble's perfect-talking, politic-acknowledged hill-sized parrot.

[Angela Christine]

Hamsters raise their own babies successfully because they have instinct.  A spider is virtually brainless compared to humans yet they instinctively know how to weave their own webs without instruction.  You cannot compare half-giants to hamsters just as you cannot compare apples to oranges.

This is just my own opinion, but I equate half-giant "stupidity" as remotely comparable to clinically retarded people.  While some may be able to successfully raise children, without doing a great deal of research on the disease, I'd venture a guess that most actually cannot (even if a hamster can).  They may be able to do things hamsters cannot, like speak languages and use tools, but their mental faculties might not be sufficient for more complicated tasks, such as rearing their own children.  I don't think the only reason half-giants lack communities of their own is simply because they don't want to, I don't think they're CAPABLE of it.  Opinions, here, obviously will vary.  In an earlier post LoD said it might be unrealistic for a half-giant to choose merchanting or in-depth crafting roles for a half-giant.  According to this logic, which I agree with, if a half-giant cannot become an adept craftsman, how is (s)he going to be able to successfully raise children on his own without any intervention of the other humanoids races?  The question is, what mental faculties are beyond the range of a half-giant's?  Unforuntately, the more in-depth you answer this, the more contradictions and restrictions you may be imposing upon the race.

Interesting.  I guess that brings up the question of whether half-giants are smarter or stupider than True Giants.  Presumably True Giants do live independently and raise their own children.


The other humanoid abominations of breeding that we commonly see are:
Mul = human + dwarf
Half-elf = human + elf

In both of those cases the normal characteristics for the half-race falls between the norms for the two parent races.  But it is conceivable that the magickally assisted procreation of the ancients resulted in a creature stupider than either of its parent racers.  I suppose it could go either way.

[spawnloser]

/me blinks.

Are you serious, AC?  Muls are stronger than both humans and dwarves from all I've been able to tell.  For the other stats, I'd believe it...but for strength...?

HG > Mul > every other PC race

[Sokotra]

Are you serious, AC?  Muls are stronger than both humans and dwarves from all I've been able to tell.  For the other stats, I'd believe it...but for strength...?

I've always assumed this was the case as well, but I'm also unsure if this -should- be the case.  I don't think this part of the game has evolved quite right, unless we are just simply wrong.

Dwarves, from what I gathered of how the game was originally supposed to be, should be very strong... not as strong as HG's but stronger than Mul's.  I also have questions about the dwarven immunity to poisons that doesn't really seem to ever work.  (I've had it work once years ago, but never since then as far as I know)  I know the docs say they may be "virtually OR literally immune to poisons" depending on the individual, but come on... if they are "virtually" immune, then they should resist and recover a heck of a lot better than your average human.  This does not seem to be the case.  

As with the strength issue, I have questions about if Dwarves are codedly working right or not.  

From the Documentation:

Physically, muls bear most of the bulk of their dwarven parent, being extremely strong and rugged. Most of the height and cunning of their human ancestry is preserved as well--

In my opinion, from what it seems... dwarves should be and need to be fixed so they are stronger than muls and their poison resistance needs to be beefed up or fixed.   This is just my opinion, I don' t know everything... so I could be wrong.  Feel free to enlighten me.

[spawnloser]

Well, Sokotra, this game is based on Dark Sun from AD&D 2e (based on only, mind you).  In AD&D, dwarves are hardier than muls, but muls are stronger than dwarves.  I would guess that this carried over from that...having the bulk of the dwarven parent on a larger frame means more strength maybe?  The stretching of this bulk over the larger frame means not quite as much endurance due to the increased weight to height ratio?  I don't know.  That's just how it was.

[Clearsighted]

In Dark Sun, the average Mul is also around seven feet tall. And their strength is explained by having the Dwarvish build.

[Marauder Moe]

The reason that muls are stronger than dwarves is that while they only have at best equal potential for muscle growth, they are just plain bigger.  More total muscle mass, longer arms and legs, longer torso, and such.

Another thing to remember is that genetics isn't neccesarily based on linear scales.  A combination of two sets of genes doesn't always produce phenotypes that are quantitative averages of the parents.  Features can be the result of genes being either on or off with nothing in between.  Intelligence in particular may not be a linear thing.  There are animals with bigger brains than humans.  Heck, I believe Neandtherthals had bigger brains than humans.  It's all about having the right, balanced combination of proteins or whatnot.  Half-giants might just be missing a few, rather than getting their stupidity from giant genes.

[Sir Diealot]

Very true, Moe.  For a real world example look at the Mule..  Horse = big, but with sensetive skin.  Donkey = small, but with thick skin and hooves.  Both of the animals are fairly intelligent, when one looks at other large mammals.

Mules are bigger than Donkeys, and have thicker skin/hooves than Horses.  They also, somehow get an increase in intelligence.  So, while certain parts of the Mule's makeup lead them to be an 'average' of horse and donkey, there is another part that is just.. changed.. to be superior to either one due to chance.

Crossbreeding is not an exact science, crossbreeding with the aid of magick is even less of one.

[Rhyden]

And mule looks like mul!

Coincidence?!

[Tisiphone]

I think what actually happens is, whenever you app for an HG and the staff accepts it, they also send you an email explaining that due to the magickal breeding, HGs are actually the -smartest- race on Zalanthas, within or without the Known World. I mean, run logic circles around a brainworm smart. I mean, convert the Dragon into a peace-loving benevolent Lockean anarchist smart.

But they're all acting dumb so they can pervade society. I mean, we've already seen a massive number of HGs in the various militias and whatnot, not to mention occassionally as lower 'aides' to nobles. Now we're even seeing an increase in 'common population' HGs, as usually represented by PCs. THEY'VE GONE TO PHASE TWO OF THE PLAN.

PHASE THREE IS THE GRADUAL DISAPPEARANCE OF PERSONS OF POWER.

PHASE FOUR IS WHERE THEY REVEAL THEMSELVES AS OUR OVERLORDS, HAVING ALREADY SUBORNED SOCIETY TO THEIR PURPOSES.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

It is truely hard to find ways to RP a good half-giant. I've had a few myself and, I'm ashamed to say, I myself am one of the worst half-giant RPers I've seen!  :oops:

It's easy to throw rocks, but once you get behind the prompt of your very own 2,000 pound vessel of destruction, you'll have a hard time finding ways of not being flat out dumber than shit yourself.  And hot DAMN will you be itching to kill eveything in sight, because it's just suddenly SOOO easy. :p

As I said, I've never played a good HG myself, but I have picked up on some things from the better ones I've seen lately that I think will help your HG stand out amongst the other retards. Two things, mainly.

A) A focus. Not to dwarf extent, but something your half-giant likes to do (besides squish things, which was, regretably, the primary objective for my last HG ) or seems to think there's practical benefit to doing. I seen one who made soap religiously, for example. This kinda coincides with the "observe culture" sort of thing, because here's something someone's told your HG about, or something he's seen someone doing that he can focus on as a sort of culture.

B) Use phrases you may not entirely grasp the concept of. Repeat clever things you've heard other PCs say. Little phrases. "I'm gonna beat you like a red-headed half-elf!" or something. This also shows your HG trying to learn traditions and gimicks of culture. Not to mention, sometimes it can be damned funny. My favorite was when a half-giant told someone "You're easier to fool than a half-giant!"

Well, those are my ideas. If anyone out there is truely good at doing the Half-Giant thing, I think they should write up a document, sort of like "The Thieves Bible" and see if the imms'll post it, because the majority of the HG's you see SUCK, quite frankly.

[flurry]

Very true, Moe.  For a real world example look at the Mule..  Horse = big, but with sensetive skin.  Donkey = small, but with thick skin and hooves.  Both of the animals are fairly intelligent, when one looks at other large mammals.

Mules are bigger than Donkeys, and have thicker skin/hooves than Horses.  They also, somehow get an increase in intelligence.  So, while certain parts of the Mule's makeup lead them to be an 'average' of horse and donkey, there is another part that is just.. changed.. to be superior to either one due to chance.

Crossbreeding is not an exact science, crossbreeding with the aid of magick is even less of one.

Just to add another example, ligers are bigger than either lions or tigers (at least, Wikipedia says so).

[Mezzy]

I had a half-giant following me around once, pretty much played identical to every othere half-giant, I got attacked by a Magicker in the 'Rinth, ran and hid in the Trader's Inn, he walks up and says something like  "You should not come in here and bleed this a nice inn for nice folks, not you"

I'm like "Alright" and walk out slightly pissed off that Sloth just insulted my tavern etiquette.

Turns out he followed me all the way to the Bard's Barrel, and stole my weapons while I was sleeping, then sold them in front of me.

I thought about attacking him, but I realized it'd just be to suicide my character who was going down the tubes faster than you can say, "Half-Giants suck."

[Twilight]

Thread ressurection!

Half-giants are challenging.

PS-rent room.  I sometimes wonder if newer players, since the advent of the apartment code, even realize it exists.

[Cale_Knight]

PS-rent room.  I sometimes wonder if newer players, since the advent of the apartment code, even realize it exists.

That's because "rent room" is insanely expensive for those who are newbish/poor enough to sleep in an unsafe place.

[X_Scars]

And the thing with rent rooms...they rent only one room out. Should have a couple extra rooms I'd think so you don't walk in on someone who's payed for the backroom before you...unless through other means.

[spawnloser]

If the back room is currently occupied, you can not rent in.