Cardinal direction discussion derail

[Quirk]

While off topic, just thought I'd toss in my thought. How should you be able to look in a direction and not be able to travel in that direction? Also, it shouldn't make any difference at all whether you see a bahamet to the nw or it being nw of your location, as the bahamet would be able to see you at the same time if you were able to see it.

If you see a bahamet on the horizon you can take avoiding action by not going that way. The bahamet however is unlikely to wear itself out pursuing things seen in the far distance. Just because it can see you doesn't mean it will chase you; it's quite possible to see a bahamet in game even without it setting out after you.

I don't think it would be fair to just be able to see the huge thing and run away, without allowing the huge thing to see you and come after you.

You can already see things in the distance without them coming after you. This is perfectly logical, as a predator is not going to waste energy hurrying toward the skyline towards something it saw there.

(What -would- be more likely would be for more hidden, skulking predators to be dotted about the sands; most solitary land-bound predators stalk their prey from cover, even the fast-running ones).

It would be exactly the same if you went west and saw the bahamet to the north, with being able to look(travel) diagonally and seeing a bahamet diagonally. And if you were able to travel diagonally, that still wouldn't solve being able to see huge objects nnw or your location, as if you travel diagonally, you'll still be jumped by the huge thing from the north in the new room anyways.

Again, you can look north and see things two rooms away, that will take you two commands entered to reach. Think of the northwest room as two rooms away as well, and it comes to the same thing.

So, basically, the current system of the four primary cardinal directions works well as it is.

No, it doesn't. If you're lucky, you go east, say, and look north, and see something huge and horrid three rooms away. It's far off in the distance, and is unlikely to waste energy chasing across the desert after you given your head start; however, you've plenty of warning so you can steer clear.

If you're unlucky, you go east, and you've all but stepped on the huge creature, and it charges in on you. In most places, this makes no sense. Not seeing it before it gets that close in an empty desert is a code quirk devoid of a sensible IC explanation.

[Halaster]

I agree that being able to look northeast and such would be great.  Personally, though, I wouldn't want to see it implemented halfway like that. Because no sooner than you can type 'look northeast' will people start asking "Why can't I shoot that direction?  Why can't I move that direction?", which are valid questions.

In my mind, if this were to be done, it should be done all the way, and simply just make them actual, usuable directions.  I saw some other mud that did this, and it worked out nice.

However, I know that such a project would be a rather huge undertaking.  First the code would have to be updated in big ways.  Then, the entire world would have to be updated to add all the links.  I'm not saying it's impossible or not doable, just.. a huge project.  And as usual, the bigger the project, the less likely it is to happen.

But anyway, that's my thoughts.  Great idea - not worth the effort.

[Beux]

I would -not- want to be the builder assigned to the job of adding all the room directions.

[Agent_137]

i call shens, halaster.

If adding a diagonal look is simple, but adding diagonal usable directions is hard, then we should add the diagonal look first and soon.

Why? Because it helps and doesn't hurt.

You act like people complaining that they can't shoot and walk nw is a problem for the mud. It's not. People always complain about something, and that's because they want more. Nothing changes that.

Don't wait 7 years to put in diagonal looks just so you can do diagonal moves at the same time and avoid people asking for more.

Thanks.
~robert

[Dalmeth]

It would still take a good deal of work.  Like differentiating between open areas and closed off areas like tunnels and canyons.

In the end though, Forty Winks did bring up a good point.  However, increasing the chances of avoiding something nasty would just take a bit more work.  It would be much easier than current methods.

Maybe the best interim solution would be a sort of "survey" command which would inform you of the prominent features (large, significant landmarks or creatures) within a 5x5 room radius of yourself.  Maybe it could even be extended to 7x7, and shrink based on the weather.

It'd probably better if it the command was assoiciated with a direction, so the view in the opposite direction could be cut off in some manner, forcing the person to actually concentrate on looking to their back.

[Beux]

Maybe the best interim solution would be a sort of "survey" command which would inform you of the prominent features (large, significant landmarks or creatures) within a 5x5 room radius of yourself.  Maybe it could even be extended to 7x7, and shrink based on the weather..

That would be very cool.

[Rhyden]

There are ways to get over not being able to see that deadly creature who's north and east of you so long as you're in an open place.

Do the math.

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* You
! Threat

(Say you don't know there's a threat to the northeast. You've came from the west side of this little map. Instead of going north or east and finding this dude, back up one step west, where you've already looked and seen no threats and walk 3 south, look east for each room, go back, walk 3 north, look east for each room, see the threat and avoid)

It may take more stamina, it may tire your mount out more, but it is possible in a wide area to never have to run into a big bad monster cause he was NE, NW, SE or SW of you. Call me crazy, but it works.

[Rhyden]

dubble post  :cry:

[Beux]

Mobs move. A mob could easily have walked into one of the previously safe areas.

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N = New deadly mob that you may now bump into on your backwards scouting journey.

[Rhyden]

Well, that's pretty rare. This is where our friendly commands 'run' and flee (if it comes down to it) come in.

[jstorrie]

I very much like Dalmeth's survey suggestion.

>survey
A large stone spire juts out several leagues to your northwest.
A flying mekillot is shooting lasers, a league to youe southeast.
A ruined fortress lies two leagues to the south.

>think "Fort... tress."

[jmordetsky]

I like that you can't see in every direction.

[Dakkon Black]

I like that you can't see in every direction.

half of tactical of strategy on arm seems to be trying to blindside your opponent by arriving from a room he wasn't expecting.

I like the survey idea, or even something just for the super big guys.

Salt flats, NESW

blah blah blah, lots of salt.

There is a scrab here.
There is a mekillot just north-east of here.


If that could happen in rooms to show npc's nearby, that might work. Perhaps we could set Watch for Watch Angles.


That would stop you from watching west, or watching elf,  but you'd be able to see your angles when entering a room? *shrugs*

[Vessol]

I agree that a survay command to give a 3by3 room examination of where you are would work out well, just looking around your directions fully. Of course other problems could exsist like doors that would have to block it, ect. It would be hard to impliment.

[jstorrie]

I doubt it would be particularly difficult to implement. For one thing, it could be easily set to not tell you things about indoor/undeground/city rooms. It's meant for when you're outside and gazing to the horizon.

[Dalmeth]

I agree that a survay command to give a 3by3 room examination of where you are would work out well, just looking around your directions fully. Of course other problems could exsist like doors that would have to block it, ect. It would be hard to impliment.

The issue is that it is a lot less difficult than implementing that grand prize, the other four directions mentioned on the compass.

Besides, given the idea is for a quick glance around you, I'd say denying vision into all indoor areas makes sense.  Also, if watch can detect such obstacles, so could this, potentially.

[Quirk]

There are ways to get over not being able to see that deadly creature who's north and east of you so long as you're in an open place.

Do the math.

There are ways to see the creature safely, provided you know where it is. If you don't know where it is, you can't guarantee safety. In the example you've just given, the room that has been entered unsafely is the one you're currently in.

Let us say you've entered this open area, coming west through a canyon opening out into it. (The same logic as follows would be true if you were dumped randomly in the middle of an open area, it's just mirrored in that case.)

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You have no way of determining where these threats are without exposing yourself to danger; that much is obvious. A single threat positioned in either of those spots is impossible to foresee. Obviously a threat directly adjacent to the * to north or south is also impossible to foresee on the turn before.

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Here, we have two threats, differently positioned, and a simple scanning algorithm of going up the side first will fail. The modified make-one-step then retreat and scan that you suggested will work in this instance.

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In this case it will not. You cannot go south far enough to distinguish the threat to the east. Now, if you modify it again to go north out of sight of the threat, you expose yourself to new hidden dangers (marked by the ?). The method you propose does work against a single threat, provided it's not within one of the rooms near the entrance marked at the start, but is not failsafe against multiple threats. Unfortunately, most Arm deserts have more than one predator.

Being able to look south-east and north-west, however, you'd be able to foresee whether or not you'd be jumped with perfect accuracy, provided the threats didn't move.

I'd actually prefer that instead of a "look northwest", we had something more like the "survey" command suggested, perhaps even in a "watch" context. You could double-check that the rooms at the corners were in an open space and then that no cliff corners were in the way by verifying firstly the terrain type and secondly that the rooms could each be reached by two routes - north-east and east-north, south-west and west-south, etc. The player would never have to type "northwest" (and possibly get heretical notions about shooting in that direction), but would be informed of the presence of large and noticeable predators skulking about in those directions.

[Armaddict]

I don't view this as a priority at -all-.

Particularly considering the amount of time it will drag however many immortals away from other tasks that are far more important.

Seriously.

[Quirk]

I don't view this as a priority at -all-.

Particularly considering the amount of time it will drag however many immortals away from other tasks that are far more important.

Seriously.

I'm pretty certain the survey command as suggested wouldn't take more than one coder to implement, nor necessarily take that coder long at all. Whether it should be done is maybe an issue; it's worth asking whether it's the best way to handle the issues raised here, or whether any coder wants to implement it, but it's not a solution that's going to suck up resources in an alarming fashion.

Redoing the whole mud to handle northeast, northwest, etc as directions would be an alarmingly large task, but no-one's advocating doing that in this thread.

[Halaster]

Whether it should be done is maybe an issue; it's worth asking whether it's the best way to handle the issues raised here...

See, that's the thing.  Some people (like me) probably don't view this as a problem of any kind.  I'm perfectly fine with not being able to look northeast.  Oh, I think it'd be really swell if it was doable, but I think we're just fine without it, too.  The fact you can't look in those directions is, in my mind, offset by other factors such as easily being able to outrun a creature 50 times your size who's legs are bigger than your entire body.

I'm not saying your idea is bad, Quirk.  I do like it.  I'm just saying uh.. what Armaddict said.  Not really a big issue and shouldn't, IMO, be a high priority at all.

[Vessol]

I agree Halaster, but it should be in some list of things to be looked at I think.

[Dalmeth]

The fact you can't look in those directions is, in my mind, offset by other factors such as easily being able to outrun a creature 50 times your size who's legs are bigger than your entire body.

I don't like the logic there.  Creatures fifty times my size are generally considered impossible on land, due to being crushed under their own weight.  There's also the fact that no one would consider the animals fifty times my character's size in the game to be lean, speedy hunters.  Most know them as heavily armored and simply unstoppable.  Bahamets are scavengers and mekillots dig through the ground for salt worms.

One thing future opening that an idea like the proposed command allows is more active predators.  No more dangers just lurking in one spot that experienced players can memorize.  With the way more animals are being moved to SimDesert Lite and behaviors are becoming more complex, it seems like a good way of making an alert mind more important when outside.

[Rhyden]

What I'm saying, Quirk, is that there's ways around it.

If you're surrounded by bad guys like in your situation, you're surrounded by bad guys. Tough luck. You'll probably find out then you'll have to deal with it. Doesn't look like the survey command would really help even if it was implemented. There's ways around it.

I've seen all cardinal directions on other muds. Personally, I don't like it.

I do like the survey command, the only iffy part to me would be if you're in a tavern able to look northeast and northwest outside along the road. Arm's mapping system isn't ideal in all places for the survey command.

[jhunter]

It's realistic but not a huge issue. I'm fine with things the way they are currently and can live with it. In fact, on some muds with all the diagonal directions covered, I found it to be a little cumbersome and kind of a pain in the butt.

[Halaster]

Creatures fifty times my size are generally considered impossible on land, due to being crushed under their own weight.

DINOSAURS!!  RAWR!!