Observation

[ianmartin]

Now, noone get offended about this post:

I am a new player to the mud and I have been watching the different threads on here.  What I have noticed is that there is almost a sadistic quality in dealing with others.  It's almost as if people are going out of their way to find ways to make things harder for others.  Maybe I am wrong and I need to check it out more, but perhaps if the overall 'sadistic' attitude was turned down a little, others who don't suscribe to this philosophy might enjoy this great coding effort a little more.

I mean, do we always have to scheme against others or make others miserable all the time?

At the expense of a bad quote, "Can't we all just get along?"
Let's make the environment as friendly as possible to attract more people, rather than looking at new players and being able to identify who their past character was based on their speech, mentaility and emotes etc...?

Just my $0.02 worth

[Beux]

Careful. They'll get you next.  :twisted:

[Marauder Moe]

Do you mean in the game as characters, or bickering on the discussion board?

In-game: No way, man.  Armageddon is supposed to be a harsh game and you're supposed to be mean to others (when it make sense in-character).  We expect others to be mean to us as well.  This is by design, not because we're all bitter PKers.  Conflict = drama = entertainment.

On the GDB: I agree.  We should all try to be nicer to eachother.  That said, though, this is by far one of the nicest game forums I've ever regularly posted on.  You want to feel better about people being rude on the GDB?  Go read the WoW forums for ten minutes. :wink:

[ianmartin]

Not to say rude, mean and/or difficult with the intent of finding ways to making the IC life and mayhaps OOC life harder than it needs to be, thereby discouraging others from joining up.

[Beux]

Awh.

So you mean in game?

ARM is supposed to be hard. It's ard to survive, it's hard to get by, and yes, in game people are mean, and challenging. But if they weren't, we'd have nothing to do, and it wouldn't fun.

If you're -really- struggling with something IG, you could try asking the staff for help, seeking out help from someone IC'ly, or asking for help on the GDB (without giving away IC info)

Edit: Or you could actively seek out my char. I live in [censored] and my sdesc is: the happy little fairy girl.

I give people free stuff and grant their wishes.

Honest.

[ianmartin]

I really need to clarify this.  I am speaking of suggesting coded ideas to make things more difficult than they already are.
You know, I was explained to before I started playing that you could do anything you wanted to on here.  Then I found out how difficult the game was, but that didn't discourage me.  I actually started playing with a character that was supposed to be as hard to play as they come for a noob.  I am concerned that others coming to play for the first time will be turned off by the overall meanness of characters in game.  

Who says that everyone has to be mean?  Wheere is taht written in stone.  How about ambition and hard wok rather than meanness and bullying?

Just a thought, I always say, "The more the merrier"
Meaning, more ppl = more fun = fresher and newer ideas.

[Beux]

Not everyone -is- mean. Some people are mean. Some people are nice. Lots of people are mean to helves, some people aren't. You -will- find people who are nice. Or at least, not horrible.

[spawnloser]

Taken from: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/overview.html

# Two, life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even free drinks of water. It is likely that you will die, and if you are unlucky or unintelligent you will die very fast. Only the fittest live long enough to retire in comfort at the end of their careers.
# Three, sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).
# Four, complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right.

[Barzalene]

I hear what the op is saying. If there was a a more cooperative spirit between the pc's the game would be less challenging for the new player and we would attract more players. I don't think anyone can argue with this, as it's probably true.

The problem is that it would no longer be Armageddon. There would no longer be the heady thrill that comes when you -do- make a friend, or the wonderful heartbreak when that friend betrays you. It would sacrifice the thing that makes Arm Arm. That instead of expecting kindness and respect and cooperation you anticipate that the world will wear at you like the stinging sands. It's what we're logging in for.

And we do want new players to come and have a wonderful time with us. The players. We want their pc's to be frightened and occassionally miserable, cause we so enjoy that state ourselves.

[Shadows and Dust]

Of the 9 or so years I've played, I've seen a huge influx of pkill-oriented players. Note that I say PLAYERS, not characters.

I don't know what this is due to, but it's a good thing, because eventually these players, will come to realize, (much like I did), that it's not always about pkilling, or hating, or trying to destroy the templars of allanak, or whatever.

There will always be these jumps in certain types of players, and I think right now there are a lot of killers out there, give it time and hopefully these players will learn to play more 'in-character' and realize that maybe this character isn't a mass murdering sociopath.

[Beux]

I would just like to point out that I personally, as a newb, was shown a great deal of kindness from a lot of players. And I put this down to them recognising my newb status.

Because of this, when I see someone I think is new to the game, despite however mean my character may be right now, I usually go a little easy on them, if my character is in a bad mood, I will try and drop hints while being horrible to them, nice mood, I'll be helpful and kind. I just think it helps giving new players a bit of a shove in the right direction.

However, none of the above applies to helves. If your a helf, newb or not, You get spat on, cursed at and beaten up.

[Pantoufle]

The problem is that it would no longer be Armageddon. There would no longer be the heady thrill that comes when you -do- make a friend, or the wonderful heartbreak when that friend betrays you. It would sacrifice the thing that makes Arm Arm. That instead of expecting kindness and respect and cooperation you anticipate that the world will wear at you like the stinging sands. It's what we're logging in for.

I don't think this applies to every player.  Believe it or not, not everyone is out there to betray you.  Not everyone has it in for the next fellow.  There are plenty of congenial personas in the game and, provided you're part of their circle of alliances, you won't have to constantly look over your shoulder every step of the way (just some steps of the way).

Despite it's name, I don't think ArmageddonMUD is "about" constant, non-stop betrayal and such utter maddness that there is never so much as a single relaxing moment for your character to kick back and clink ale mugs with his companions.  Corruption, betrayal and all that jazz is but one aspect of the game, but I wouldn't (in my lowliest and humblest of opinions) say that it is "the" defining quality of the MUD -- just a central theme.

[Barzalene]

The problem is that it would no longer be Armageddon. There would no longer be the heady thrill that comes when you -do- make a friend, or the wonderful heartbreak when that friend betrays you. It would sacrifice the thing that makes Arm Arm. That instead of expecting kindness and respect and cooperation you anticipate that the world will wear at you like the stinging sands. It's what we're logging in for.

I don't think this applies to every player.  Believe it or not, not everyone is out there to betray you.  Not everyone has it in for the next fellow.  There are plenty of congenial personas in the game and, provided you're part of their circle of alliances, you won't have to constantly look over your shoulder every step of the way (just some steps of the way).

Despite it's name, I don't think ArmageddonMUD is "about" constant, non-stop betrayal and such utter maddness that there is never so much as a single relaxing moment for your character to kick back and clink ale mugs with his companions.  Corruption, betrayal and all that jazz is but one aspect of the game, but I wouldn't (in my lowliest and humblest of opinions) say that it is "the" defining quality of the MUD -- just a central theme.

I agree. I compltely agree with you. On the other hand, and just to clarify, I don't think we need to change anything. I think I like things the way they are, and don't feel that we gain anything by encouraging the playerbase to be MORE or LESS cooperative.

[LoD]

Despite it's name, I don't think ArmageddonMUD is "about" constant, non-stop betrayal and such utter maddness that there is never so much as a single relaxing moment for your character to kick back and clink ale mugs with his companions.  Corruption, betrayal and all that jazz is but one aspect of the game, but I wouldn't (in my lowliest and humblest of opinions) say that it is "the" defining quality of the MUD -- just a central theme.

I completely agree.  It might be that some folks think every waking moment in Armageddon should be a gut wrenching, backstabbing, plot hatching, crafty scheming event, but I certainly think those people are missing the bigger picture when it comes to the game.

What allows evil is the presence of good.  What allows betrayal is the presence of trust.  What allows corruption is the presence of justice and fairness.  All of these things are a very real and important part of the gameworld, and it requires all of them to sustain the living, breathing atmosphere that many of us crave.

I agree with the OP that there are sometimes suggestions made to adapt the code that will make it even less intuitive and more difficult on new players who are already struggling with learning the game: food rotting, harsher dehydration penalites, various incarnations of the wound code, stamina penalties to lacing your boots, etc...

What I think you have is the natural struggle between two kinds of players:

> Players that want to totally immerse themselves in as realistic a game as possible, fighting tooth and nail against each other, the environment, and themselves.

> Players that want to experience all of the same things as Group A without sacrificing what they see are playability issues.

I've found that it's best to trust in the Imms to monitor what code changes and additional features make their way into the game and take what is said on the GBD with a grain of salt.  Some great ideas come out of the GDB, and others are just hashed and re-hashed every other year.  Don't loose heart - I think the right players will still find a home here.

-LoD

[Ktavialt]

I mean, do we always have to scheme against others or make others miserable all the time?

It seems like it, doesn't it?  Like, to a perverse degree people are
infatuated with being sly and backstabbing one another, and at least one
major culture in the game almost seems built around the concept.  
However, given the way power is distributed, and politics are, it doesn't
appear to be too unrealistic for the atmosphere.  You have a class based
society, with the guys at the top having some strange magick power, its
just a recipe for bad things to occur.

That said, there are some honorable and righteously good sorts in the
game who, at least are close to the AD&D "good alignment" personality.
Personally, in a world where everyone seems infatuated with scheming
and stuff, its sometimes fun to play the opposite character and be the
change.

Otherwise, a good option is to play a halfling, although I've never seen the
docs I'd imagine their culture might be less inclined to do that (uncertain
though).  You are gonna probably have to play a few decently RP'd chars
first to special app a halfling, just for trustworthiness though.

- Ktavialt

[jstorrie]

Hey, my PC is nice!

Well, unless you're an elf, or a foreigner, or working for an opposing noble, or oppose his projects, or want money, or rival him socially, or...

[Dresan]

Hey, my PC is nice!

Well, unless you're an elf, or a foreigner, or working for an opposing noble, or oppose his projects, or want money, or rival him socially, or...

Mine is too! Nice polite PCs are so much easier to approach and bribe. Its much easier gain trust and then brutally backstab someone.

Its not the obvious mean and tough looking PCs that are the most dangerous.
[/derail]

I agree with LoD, i'm probably more on the side of fighting tooth and nail for survival but i do like playability. I would like to see more code that provides more  options and promotes player to player interaction. For example greater overall defence ratings for all classes along side stamina penalties so combat isn't always a one sided 5 second gank fest, more strategy and thinking involved.

Personally, if it were up to me i'd show players exactly where to get water and where to get flour to make flat cakes directly from documents. After that it just takes patience and time to learn the world.

Other then that players on the GDB can sound like assholes sometimes, but then it almost seems like less then 1/4 of players use the boards anyways.

[bloodfromstone]

While I do roll my eyes at the "omfg super harsh everyone hates everyone except that we also have tons of mudsex but no one cares who its with because it's Zalanthas!" mentality, I actually don't find most of the characters in game to be to aligned to it as to be unplayable. Yeah, there are occasional bastards. Okay, more than occasionally, but they definitely aren't the norm. I'd say the majority of the population tends to be pretty friendly, if somewhat suspicious of one another, and good at their cores. It's just that the goodness often gets overshadowed by the sort of work they have to do, the other people around them, etc.

Personally, what I love about harsh and gritty settings is that when everything is bleak and ugly, the moments of beauty and honor become all the more breathtaking.

[Gimfalisette]

You haven't said where you played before coming here, so I dunno if it was a PKill / PvP environment or not, but...in most MMOs and other game environments that don't have any-time, anywhere player killing, there's a general sense of "I can trust this person" (because they can't actually do anything much to me) and so it's very easy as a noob to hook up with other players, run off and kill things together, everyone gets loot and everyone is happy. Even in PvP environments, there's generally someone who is "allied" or on your side somehow (you're both "good guys" or "bad guys") and that lends a sort of trust to first encounters.

But ARM really isn't that way. There aren't generally true good guys or bad guys. The "sides" in the game are flexible and very complex. Loyalty can be purchased, and so can betrayal. Characters who are nice to other characters might not really be nice, and characters who are jerks at first meeting might be the most loyal, truest friends you'd ever find...if you can find some way to get to know them.

I'd recommend, thus, having a lot of patience and not expecting quick integration into relationships where trust is possible, or where loyalty comes into play, or where you really even know if the other character is actually "nice" or not.

Also, join a clan if you haven't already...since fellow clannies are slightly less likely to try to mess you up immediately

I like the social complexity of ARM, and not knowing who my character's allies or enemies are, exactly. It's thrilling. I'd be incredibly bored if everyone was nice all the time, or even most of the time.

[Cuusardo]

Armageddon is all about struggling for survival.  Sometimes it involves killing others, sometimes it involves helping each other out.  But you know what they say: When the going gets tough, the tough get going.  Do your best to be tough against those who seek to harm you, or run if you can't stand up to them.  Find those who will help you, because they do exist.  Not everyone is out to screw everyone else over.

[Dakkon Black]

It's very true that there are bad people out there, but I'd have to say that most of my chars have been closer to the good side of neutral then bad, though I do stay in the middle for the most part.

Even with my most violent char, who was just as likely to stab you in the face as say hi, I never killed a single pc, and though that was lucky, in terms of not getting a hard, critical hit before I could stop, it was also WAY more fun. Leaving people that you have robbed and or beaten to a pulp, to one day get back at you is my preffered style.

So yes, people might cheat, rob, hurt you. But I know alot of us will do it in a way that makes the world breathe life, not simple out to win lameness.

And yes, you will be killed in lame and terrible ways. But it's the ones in between that are spectacular that you keep coming back for.

[Morrolan]

However, none of the above applies to helves. If your a helf, newb or not, You get spat on, cursed at and beaten up.

There are circumstances when that's not true.  Like when you're holding the handle-end of the sword, and you know how to use it.   :wink:

[Spud]

I find most the chars I meet IC are too nice.

[Cuusardo]

I forgot to add in my last response that one of the reasons I love this game is because it presents a challenge.  I've played on muds where my PC got anything and everything easily, and it got old and boring really quickly.  I personally like the challenge of surviving, because it makes things more interesting.  I've said before, it's like being a part of a huge soap opera, only more fun.

[Anonymous]

There is an ongoing challenge for players and Staff to keep the game suitably challenging for experienced players while not making it so incredibly brutal on new players that it becomes alienating.

There was a period about 2 years ago when, for whatever reason whether intended or not, there was a huge increase in the number and strength of NPC predators in a heavily populated area.  If this was intentional I can only guess it was done to provide a challenge/risk for more advanced players but the reality I experienced was that it was way overboard.

It's a really fine tightrope to walk because if you leave things too soft you'll have experienced players running roughshod over the game, slaughtering creatures by the dozens and ruining the economy.  Too hard and newbies will quit in frustration.