A more dynamic Stats system

[Dresan]

Stat-wise, characters are stagnant for the most part.  This usually isn't a huge concern, but if a new bit of code comes in that allows PCs to pit their stats against one another to determine a winner to an arbitrary task (which is determined by the ensuing RP), there has to be an allowance made for self-improvement.

Realistically, it is not difficult to improve your stamina.  If you have the motivation to go for a half-hour run every day for a month, your stamina and endurance are going to improve dramatically.  This could be the difference between "poor" endurance and "exceptional" endurance.  Likewise, agility and strength are also trainable traits.

There would have to be some mechanism whereby players can increase the stats of their PCs over time without the need for staff intervention.  Personally, I would rather see this as a hidden layer to what coded actions can already be taken rather than specific training exercises or new commands.  For instance, using the 'run' command a lot would gradually increase endurance.  Likewise, doing activities such as climbing and archery would increase agility.

There would be drawbacks, of course.  To maintain a certain level of physicality, the activities must be practiced routinely.  If a character suddenly stops doing whatever it is he was doing to get his improved level of fitness, that level would begin to drop, as is the case in real life.  Also, certain activities should put a coded toll on the PC.  Running a lot would require the PC to have to eat and drink more water.

Adding a dynamic system like this would do the game world a huge amount of justice, in my opinion.  It would blend well with the strides the staff are taking to make the game more real (things like SimDesert and Kruth shuffling).  I hope this is something people will feel is a valid idea.  Keep in mind that it's not meant as a powergamer's tool.  It's just a shift in policy to allow actions to reflect more realistically on a character's physical and mental traits.

i found and editted this idea. I like the idea of a more dynamic system, i'll be the first to agree stats don't really mater but i hate how static they are.  However would it be possible to achieve such as system without making it seem like more tedious training?

I often wonder if not being able to see your PC's stats would take away from that static feeling.

[Beux]

I do agree that this makes sense and should be possible. However, I think it needs to be contained, and also limited.

Soley because we wouldn't mud full of maxed out characters with full stats that just ran around slaughtering everyone. - I know you guys aren't this type. But you need to keep a handle on this sort of thing.

If this were to go into action, and stats were to go -up- I'd also like to see them come back down again. Factors like age, lack of excercise, etc should decrease stats.

Wisdom: Increased by age, decreased by combat (blows to the head perhaps?)

Strength: Increased by physical training - combat, decreased by lack of physical training, older age

Endurance: Increased by running, combat, perhaps exhaustion, and reaching max hunger/thirst - decreased by always keeping hunger/thirst at bay, never running, lack of combat, old age

Agility:Increased by things like archery, climbing, running, decreased by lack of excercise, always using kank, old age

These are just examples, and I would -much- prefer it if this idea was implemented and the staff did not disclose what increased/decreased stats. I think too many people would go into training hypermode in an attempt to increase stats.

I really think increases and decreases should be extremely rare, and there should be certain caps in both directions for race/class combinations.

For example, an elfs agility might never drop below a certain point, a giant strength wouldn't drop below a certain point, etc etc.

[bloodfromstone]

While it would be neat and, in theory, realistic, I think it would turn into a stat increasing fest. Starving hunters would take to doing morning jogs, instead of trying to save their precious energy, etc.

I don't think the current stat system is perfect. I'd like to see more balancing be done on creation (such as a point distribution system), but I definitely prefer the current to having all characters running around with A.I. everything.

If a player ran way of increasing their PC's stats was implemented, I would prefer to see it be point and time based. Don't take the numbers I use seriously, this is just for an example, but it would work something like this:

Every 2 IC years, a character is awarded +5 stat points and -5 stat points to distribute. So, for example, Amos the hunter has been pounding holes in gurth shells with his bone katana for the past two years, so he thinks he should have gotten a bit stronger. Amos' player sets something up like

Str: +2
Speed: +3 -3
Wisdom: -1
Endurance: -1

So, in effect, he becomes a bit stronger, but loses out on his other stats (save speed, which remains the same) a bit. However, Malik the beggar hasn't really done anything. I mean, he begged. That's what he does. But he certainly hasn't been on the bowflex.

Str: +5 -5

No change. Malik's life is unchanged.

Of course, this is kind of raw, but I'd much prefer to see something that kept the numbers balanced, rather than something that allowed people to get points out of the blue.

[Marauder Moe]

Unfortunately, I think this is one of those things (like our class system) where playability trumps realism.

Think about the actual effects this would have:

:arrow: Players would obsess over stats even more than they already do (which is already more than they should).  Might lead to more low stat roll suicides.

:arrow: Players would feel compelled to engage in these stat-boosting opportinities at an unrealistic frequency, especially since realistically they're mostly low-risk, solo activities.

I'll admit, those are both examples of things that would be a problem mostly with less responsible players, but what would it do for the responsible roleplayer?

:arrow: Widen the gap between old and new characters.  This would be redundant because the skill system already differentiates them nicely, and it would be bad because you'd have more people able to do things they shouldn't, like beat up half-giants our out-run desert elves.


Stats declining over time wouldn't work either.  If they decline in realtime then players who can't play much get punished.  If they decline based on time logged in, you punish players who like to spend time doing things besides training.

In my opinion, the only playable way to code stat-changes would be if an increase in one stat leads to a decrease of another, so it's stat-rearrangement rather than increase.  However, with the recent addition of stat-ordering, I don't think this is neccesary.

I often wonder if not being able to see your PC's stats would take away from that static feeling.

Maybe, but the problem is that veteran players (usually having played a variety of races) would easily be able to judge their stats based on other information.  Endurance can be determined by looking at your hitpoints.  You can see how much of some particular item you can lift to judge your strength.  Dexterity is reflected by how many items you can hold.  Wisdom can be checked by adding mana to your prompt.  You'd really just frustrate newbies.

[Beux]

Do you really think all players would take their points and use them realistically?

I can see the possibility that the player behind Malik might add 5 points somewhere, and not detract. Unless you're saying points -have- to be detracted, which I don't really agree with. People reach a prime, then start to go down, so there should be a point when a character is only gaining, and not really losing much unless they really get slack. Only when they start to hit old age, or wealthy lazyness, or perhaps impoverished inability, would their stats start to drop.

[bloodfromstone]

The idea would be that they would -have- to distribute all points. However, I agree with Mr. Moe that things are probably best as is, with no real player hands dipping into the stat well.

[Pantoufle]

Pardon the derail but I felt here would be as good a place as any to point this out.

Why does wisdom (allegedly) increase with age?  Wisdom, according to ArmageddonMUD, is the speed at which one learns a given skill.  Children learn far quicker than adults.  I agree that old men are wise in the ways of the world and all that jazz, but that's an entirely different definition of wisdom.  I honestly think someone made a mistake somewhere along the way when implementing this, mistaking the text book definition of wisdom with Arm's definition (the speed of learning).

[daedroug]

I personally like Bloodfromstones idea except instead of giving the characters the abaility to do it on their own i think it really should be a coded and automatic thing. Also this way each new character aughta start with say 10 or so points that slowly distribute themselves as they go along on their daily actions and once they are used up there's no more until one of the stats start degrade and then they can be once again automatically redistributed to the same or a different stat

[Flaming Ocotillo]

While it would be neat and, in theory, realistic, I think it would turn into a stat increasing fest. Starving hunters would take to doing morning jogs, instead of trying to save their precious energy, etc.

HAHAHA

[Ryker]

I seem to be saying this a lot lately for some reason... but leave it. Honestly the stat system right now is simple and it works beautifully. However, the main reason this souldn't be done is simply because there would be major twinkage/code abuse.   That is it would encourage people like Really encourage people to do things for unrealistic time spans blah blah blah, and the way the stats system is right now makes that much less of an issue... well, at least compared to what it would be if this idea was implemened.

[daedroug]

ok Ryker i hear where your coming from but i don't think any of us are talking about dramatic overpowering changes to the stats but simple maybe one level change to a single attribute at a time at the most.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

I don't like this idea.  Within a week of its implementation, it would be abused to the point of regret.  And that's time wasted coding an enormous project that could've been spent doing something that adds to the game.

[daedroug]

if only i had a dime for each time i've heard that

[Vesperas]

I've spent several years playing a game which used this sort of system for stat advancement.  You could raise your character's abilities through use of skills.

What happened, though, was horribly detrimental to both roleplay and realism.  They set it up so that only certain skills would raise certain stats.  For example, in order to raise strength, a character could gain levels in the bubble-blowing and anchor-throwing skills.  What would happen is every PC would gather at the one point in the IC world where it would be extremely easy to practice bubble-blowing, would sit down, and blow bubbles.

For hours.

And hours.

And HOURS.

Then, of course, someone else would walk into the room and slaughter all the little weaklings there trying to blow bubbles, loot them, and wait for them to respawn and come back.





All that said... if the staff made it so that stats would increase/decrease through the natural use (or disuse) of skills, I'd like to seen this applied to -all- skills and some actions.

Frequent lumberjacking would raise your strength, but possibly also lower your agility (due to the bulk of muscles) at a lower rate.  Climbing could also raise strength, but not to the same degree as lumberjacking.

The rates and exact effects on stats would all be based on realism, but vague and low enough to make for a great deal of guesswork.  There could also be an element of "burn out", to keep people from being abusive.

Something to consider are the number of roles in the game which do not require the use of skills, like aides.  Although they arn't spam-sparring and hacking at obsidian or glass, an aide would still be doing a lot of strenuous work day in and day out.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

Vesperas, I highly doubt Armageddon would have an experience anything close to what you're talking about.  But I will agree that it will be abused.  We have an element of control, and those are skills.  They are abused enough, by a culture that I will only refer to as 'some.'

daedroug, that's just the truth, isn't it?   :wink:

[X-D]

I've not even read the thread.

But, on stats, I've often found myself wishing that agility was split into agility and dexterity.

mostly because one cannot really be agile without a certain amount of strength. but one can be weak as a newborn kitten and still be dextrous.

I watch people play PC's who probobly have extremely good agility but have strength so low they can't wield a wooden knife. Yet they are doing acrobatic tricks. Um, hey folks, Gymnists are STRONG. without a substantial amount of strength you cannot do a backflip, you cannot do several cartwheels in a row etc etc.

Just something on my wish list I guess, have a rolled stat of dex and a rolled stat of strength then have a stat of agility which is a combination of the two plus encumbrance. This would be a dynamic stat as well, changing as the pc changes enc.

As to the current way stats are raised and lowered, I think that other then temperary changes already offered, perm changes are handled well enough, IE RP, logs and staff deciding.

[Dresan]

How about this:

Depending Clan, rank, job a PC over ingame time played will slowly gain stat(s). The higher the original stat is the less likely it is to increase and there is a cap to how much you will gain. Everything while close is still random.

For example Militia members who train daily, access to medics, eat and drink real well should generally be stronger then independant warrior who goes out and get torn up against carrus.

Therefore milita members would get strength and endurance stat increase, and a rare agi one one in a while maybe.

House merchant- access to knowledge, wise people and more or less word of mouth education not to mention food and water, easy living therfore they would get endurance and wis stat increases.

Now if you leave the clan the stats will slowly begin to decrease back to the original level.

Now i'm not talking about huge bonuses, but for example someone with a 'good' stat after 15 years in the clan might see if go up to very good or extremely good.(Age bonus/penalities will still apply).

This is not a complete penalty (though it would be realistic) to independents since there are still institution and people that they can join or train under that should give them some bonuses. Again this is not making it harder for them so much as taking into account different lifestyles

I think this would make stat seem less static, without the training while still being realistic.

[spawnloser]

How does the code know what your job is, Dresan?  Being a member of a particular clan, or doing particular activities that the code could recognize?  Both of those wouldn't work.  You aren't necessarily going to be a soldier/guard just because you are in Utep Sun Clan.  You aren't necessarily a soldier/guard just because you're sparring.  I have a feeling this new idea would require staff intervention.

[Dresan]

Well most clans do have more detailed title when you join for example something like:

You are hunter for house Kadius.

Thats how i was thinking the code would know but you are right not all the clans job titles outline what you do exactly so for a new system like this to work the game would need more detailed and refined job titles for all clans.

Still though i'd like to see random stat bonuses for at least clan leaders or long term employees or PCs. The Staff already goes through long lived PCs fixing the stats to match their ages. These PC should be generally smarter and stronger PC given that they've managed to survive and get to their position, i think they should get a small but still noticable boost.

Oh well, just some thoughts on the matter. People can still email their clan imms and ask but i'd be damn if it wouldn't make me feel like a powergaming twink for doing so...not to mention it would probably get rejected.

[bardbard#4]

The point of a dynamic stat system is not to get stat bonuses, but to reflect the overall changes that a human body will undergo when subject to different forms of activity.  Everything should be taken into account.  Diet.  Exercise.  Speech.  Thinking.  Fighting.  Hunting.  Walking.  Running.  Training.  Apathy.  Idling.  Climbing.  Shooting.  Throwing.  Gambling.  Sneaking.  Hiding.  Using a weapon.  Crafting.  Casting.

ALL these things should mold together to affect a character's stats, just like any activity does in real life.  And anyone who says stats don't matter is out to lunch.  Of course they matter, or they wouldn't be there.  I'd just like to see them reflected realistically, rather than statically.

[Dresan]

Right the point of the thread was to examine whether a dynamic system was even possible without making it seem like training against a dummy. Problem is people would avoid doing things that are negative towards their PCs and try to do as much of the things that would grant them bonuses. I honestly don't think there is a way to achieve a dynamic system without this effect. The closest would be to give chances for stat increase while training certain stats, decreasing when not and possible when you get hurt in combat. Again its probably not that desirable.

At least my way people would get the bonuses people would work to achieve anyways while still avoiding repetative training and while remaining realistic. Again while not providing a dynamic system still more or less getting rid of static stats (which was another point of the thread).

[bardbard#4]

See, but that wouldn't happen if the staff set it up properly.  Too much training and not enough activities to balance that would lead to negative reductions, not positive.  All they would have to do is balance the code in such a way that a well-rounded lifestyle leads to the "best gains".  For example, if you do nothing but train train train and run run run, you'll actually lose endurance and strength because you have neglected to sleep and recuperate.  If all you do us hunt, day and night, then your wisdom would probably go down because you aren't spending any time conversing with people.  If all you do is climb walls, you could lose endurance, and risk the chance of suffering some sort of ligament or join injury because you haven't been taking the time to recuperate.  Just like in real life.  That's really the point, is to have physiology reflect real life as much as possible.  A good amount of sleep, food, downtime, training, and socializing will boost stats, sure.  But is that powergaming?  Fuck no.  It is good roleplay.